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How do we prove that Obama is a Socialist?

Wake

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I know there is a lot of correlating evidence that Obama is a socialist. However, whenever I debate, liberals always want me to prove it concretely with solid proof---they want to hear it from Obama's mouth and everything else be damned. What, if anything, can be used as damning evidence that Obama is a socialist?
 

Wake

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Because you do not weigh all issues, and seek to reason all things, you are not credible. If you have naught but ignorant comments, then please do not post here.
 

CriticalThought

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I know there is a lot of correlating evidence that Obama is a socialist. However, whenever I debate, liberals always want me to prove it concretely with solid proof---they want to hear it from Obama's mouth and everything else be damned. What, if anything, can be used as damning evidence that Obama is a socialist?

You might first want to prove that he isn't Keynesian.
 

Paschendale

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Obama is a cautious politician who generally supports big business, but has at least some compassion for the poor who cannot otherwise help themselves. He's a FAR cry from earning the right to be called a socialist, though.
 

MKULTRABOY

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I know there is a lot of correlating evidence that Obama is a socialist. However, whenever I debate, liberals always want me to prove it concretely with solid proof---they want to hear it from Obama's mouth and everything else be damned. What, if anything, can be used as damning evidence that Obama is a socialist?

Maybe if I subscribe to some fundamentalist nationalist political mythos I might start to believe he was a socialist. :)
 

Manc Skipper

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I know there is a lot of correlating evidence that Obama is a socialist. However, whenever I debate, liberals always want me to prove it concretely with solid proof---they want to hear it from Obama's mouth and everything else be damned. What, if anything, can be used as damning evidence that Obama is a socialist?

You need Seigfreid and Roy for that.
 

washunut

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You might first want to prove that he isn't Keynesian.

I am sure I know what he is. I am not HE knows what he is from an economics standpoint. That being said my sense is that there are things that he and his administration have done and said which would say he is not a wild eyed capitalist.

Some examples might be as follows:

- Privatizing student loans.

- Calling Chyrsler bondholders who felt they were cheated by the government - greedy speculators.

- Questioning the pay packages of certain people whom he demonized.

- More than the bailout of GM, the bringing in his people to fire the existing CEO and make operating decisions for a major corporation.

- Using TARP funding beyond it's original design. A piggybank for a bunch of social experiments.

- Healthcare is clearly an act to redistribute wealth.

- Using the Bush taxes to generate class welfare which is destructive to our form of economy.

- Putting Ms. Warren in charge of figuring out regulations on the financial industry. Did this group go off the reservation, yes. But it has been a competitive advantage
for America for the last two decades. Too much regulation may cause a lot of income destruction here in america.

I am sure there are several more that folks can add to this starter list.
 

Wake

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Obama seeks to "spread the wealth" and "fundamentally transform America." He speaks of "change" and "progress." America is the only capitalistic nation. What are we to "change" into? Please take some time to weigh this in your hands and reason within yourself.
 

CriticalThought

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Obama seeks to "spread the wealth" and "fundamentally transform America." He speaks of "change" and "progress." America is the only capitalistic nation. What are we to "change" into? Please take some time to weigh this in your hands and reason within yourself.

Actually we are a mixed economy.

Mixed economy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But don't get mired down in those details! Down with Obama and his evil Socialist agenda!
 

MKULTRABOY

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Obama seeks to "spread the wealth" and "fundamentally transform America." He speaks of "change" and "progress." America is the only capitalistic nation. What are we to "change" into? Please take some time to weigh this in your hands and reason within yourself.

The terms themselves are vague and mean little. America is not the only capitalist nation :roll:.
 

obvious Child

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Obama seeks to "spread the wealth" and "fundamentally transform America." He speaks of "change" and "progress." America is the only capitalistic nation. What are we to "change" into? Please take some time to weigh this in your hands and reason within yourself.

Proving what?

Do you even know what Socialism is?

Tell me, does a Socialist bailout banks with full intention of turning them over to private investors ASAP?
Tell me, does a Socialist carve out specific clauses to let the most capitalistic of investors, Hedge Funds, to avoid basically any regulation in a massive new financial bill?
Tell me, does a Socialist enact a health care bill mandating that everyone get insurance from privately owned health care insurance providers?
Tell me, does a Socialist keep a tax system favoring unearned income over earned?

Want to see real Socialism in America? It's called the Veteran's healthcare. Where the doctors are government employees. Where the hospitals are owned by the government. Where taxpayer monies funds it. Procedures are dictated by the government. That's ACTUAL Socialism.
 

Wake

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Are we not a Republic, as evidenced by the National Anthem?

I do know what socialism and its variations are. Time and again people ask me to define it as though I know not what I speak. It gets old quickly.
 
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Moot

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I am sure I know what he is. I am not HE knows what he is from an economics standpoint. That being said my sense is that there are things that he and his administration have done and said which would say he is not a wild eyed capitalist.

Some examples might be as follows:

- Privatizing student loans.
Increased Pell grant amounts and lowered interest rates on student loans.

- Calling Chyrsler bondholders who felt they were cheated by the government - greedy speculators.
Well, weren't they?


- Questioning the pay packages of certain people whom he demonized.
Well, considering taxpayers had to bail them out, why should they reward them for failing as well?

- More than the bailout of GM, the bringing in his people to fire the existing CEO and make operating decisions for a major corporation.
The GM CEO was a failure. Why keep him on if taxpayers are footing the bill to bail GM out?

- Using TARP funding beyond it's original design. A piggybank for a bunch of social experiments.
What was the original design of TARP? If I recall the TARP funds were designed to be used at the Secratary of Treasury discretion.

- Healthcare is clearly an act to redistribute wealth.
Hmm, I thought it was to redistribute health.

- Using the Bush taxes to generate class welfare which is destructive to our form of economy.
The Bush tax cuts did nothing to help the economy and if they aren't left to expire on Dec. 31, they will add $3.3 TRILLION more to the deficit.

- Putting Ms. Warren in charge of figuring out regulations on the financial industry. Did this group go off the reservation, yes. But it has been a competitive advantage
for America for the last two decades. Too much regulation may cause a lot of income destruction here in america.
It was deregulation that destroyed the economy, so what we need is more regulation, not less.

I am sure there are several more that folks can add to this starter list.
Oh I'm sure there are.
But nothing on your list suggests that Obama is a sssssssocialist.
 

Moot

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Because you do not weigh all issues, and seek to reason all things, you are not credible. If you have naught but ignorant comments, then please do not post here.
Then perhaps you could define what you mean by "socialist"?
 

washunut

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Increased Pell grant amounts and lowered interest rates on student loans.

Well, weren't they?


Well, considering taxpayers had to bail them out, why should they reward them for failing as well?

The GM CEO was a failure. Why keep him on if taxpayers are footing the bill to bail GM out?

What was the original design of TARP? If I recall the TARP funds were designed to be used at the Secratary of Treasury discretion.

Hmm, I thought it was to redistribute health.

The Bush tax cuts did nothing to help the economy and if they aren't left to expire on Dec. 31, they will add $3.3 TRILLION more to the deficit.

It was deregulation that destroyed the economy, so what we need is more regulation, not less.

Oh I'm sure there are.
But nothing on your list suggests that Obama is a sssssssocialist.

You are just factually wrong on so many counts.

On the first point we are not debating merits just looking for a tendency to socialise our economy. So you seem to agree he did that in this case.

Chrysler bondholders were held by all sorts of people. Retired people who had held them for a long time, pension funds etc. To generalize and call all investors speculators in my view is just stupid.

Goldman Sachs took bailout money because Paulson made everyone take it. So the weakest players would not be exposed. GS had already done the deal with Buffet which provided $5 billion in additional capital.

No read up on what TARP was intended for and get back to us.

Again on healthcare, not sure if you are dense, think you are cute with silly answers or what. There are a number of articles saying that is just what I called it. A redistribution of wealth.

Again on the tax cuts, not sure if you are dense or what. Obama is not trying to eliminate all 3 trillion, just the money that goes to people over 250K. My understanding is that would cost about 35 billion in 2011.

Again you are sadly misinformed. There was enough regulation. However the regulators did not do the job. So how about following the old rules before adding more and see how that works.

Again I did not say he is a socialist. I am not sure what he is except inept.
 

obvious Child

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Are we not a Republic, as evidenced by the National Anthem?

Is China Communist according to their various legal documents?

I do know what socialism and its variations are.

You do not appear to understand even the basics of the term. Someone who specifically let hedge funds escape the financial reform bill is not a Socialist.

Time and again people ask me to define it as though I know not what I speak. It gets old quickly.

And I bet time and time again you fail to define it.
 

rathi

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I recommend you find an actual socialist country, say Sweden, and use it as a basis for comparison. For example, their healthcare system is funded by taxes levied on citizens and run completely by the government. The healthcare bill signed by Obama required people to get insurance from private companies. By comparing the two systems, it is clear that American bill is quite different and not socialist.
 

Simon W. Moon

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I know there is a lot of correlating evidence that Obama is a socialist. However, whenever I debate, liberals always want me to prove it concretely with solid proof---they want to hear it from Obama's mouth and everything else be damned. What, if anything, can be used as damning evidence that Obama is a socialist?
you should start with a definition of socialist
 

Hoplite

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Obama seeks to "spread the wealth" and "fundamentally transform America." He speaks of "change" and "progress." America is the only capitalistic nation. What are we to "change" into? Please take some time to weigh this in your hands and reason within yourself.
Ok, you're interpreting rhetoric the way you want to see it. Dont tongue-lash someone for ignorant comments while fishing for partisan wood to fuel your fire.
 

Moot

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You are just factually wrong on so many counts.

On the first point we are not debating merits just looking for a tendency to socialise our economy. So you seem to agree he did that in this case.
The government did it's constitutional duty to provide security and protection to tax paying citizens when it stopped the usury on student loans in order to prevent an entire segment of the population from debt slavery. Call it whatever you want, but it wasn't socialism.

Chrysler bondholders were held by all sorts of people. Retired people who had held them for a long time, pension funds etc. To generalize and call all investors speculators in my view is just stupid.
But investing is speculating.

Goldman Sachs took bailout money because Paulson made everyone take it. So the weakest players would not be exposed. GS had already done the deal with Buffet which provided $5 billion in additional capital.
So what. If it werent for Goldman Sachs and the other big banks bundling and selling toxic subprime mortgages and then betting against them thru AIG, we wouldn't have needed to bailout the big banks and AIG in the first place.


No read up on what TARP was intended for and get back to us.
"On December 19, 2008, President Bush used his executive authority to declare that TARP funds may be spent on any program that Secretary of Treasury, Henry Paulson,[18] deems necessary to avert the financial crisis. This has allowed President Bush to extend the use of TARP funds to support the auto industry, a move supported by the United Auto Workers."
Troubled Asset Relief Program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That concurs with what I said.

Again on healthcare, not sure if you are dense, think you are cute with silly answers or what. There are a number of articles saying that is just what I called it. A redistribution of wealth.
Your talking points are getting extremely redundant and meaningless. I meant what I said, the healthcare bill was a redistribution of health care, not wealth.

Again on the tax cuts, not sure if you are dense or what. Obama is not trying to eliminate all 3 trillion, just the money that goes to people over 250K. My understanding is that would cost about 35 billion in 2011.
Do you know what an ad hominem attack is and why people like you feel the need to use fallacies? Because you can't defend your arguments with facts and reason, thats why. So keep it up and there will be little doubt just exactly who the dense one is in this debate. It will be you.

Again you are sadly misinformed. There was enough regulation. However the regulators did not do the job. So how about following the old rules before adding more and see how that works.
No, you are sadly misinformed and you have just proven it.

Again I did not say he is a socialist. I am not sure what he is except inept.
Whatever. Our discussion is over.
 

Hoplite

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Also, for the OP, you dont start out with a conclusion and try to prove it right. You gather everything you can and draw a conclusion from that.

I dont think you really care about an honest conclusion, you just want ammunition to keep your own beliefs afloat.
 
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