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How do we prevent future Aurora-style massacres?

the makeout hobo

the makeout hobo

Rockin' In The Free World
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After every time that someone shoots up a school or a post office or a movie theater, the NRA and gun advocates come out and say that the solution isn't to limit access to firearms. So let's (for the purpose of this thread) accept the axiom that gun rights should not be impeded in any way. What can we as a society do to try to limit massacres? Or should we just accept that these incidents are like the weather and we can't do anything to stop them? How can we stop these from happening as often? I actually want to hear ideas and encourage dialogue here, not turn this into some sort of pro/anti firearm thread.
 
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the makeout hobo said:
After every time that someone shoots up a school or a post office or a movie theater, the NRA and gun advocates come out and say that the solution isn't to limit access to firearms. So let's (for the purpose of this thread) accept the axiom that gun rights should not be impeded in any way. What can we as a society do to try to limit massacres? Or should we just accept that these incidents are like the weather and we can't do anything to stop them? How can we stop these from happening as often? I actually want to hear ideas and encourage dialogue here, not turn this into some sort of pro/anti firearm thread.
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Many of these people commit these types of activities to get attention and the media are more than happy to give it to them.
This latest guy Holmes, he dies his hair red, calls himself the joker, and attacks during the Batman movie.

Take away the incentive to do something like that. How about a quick blurb in the news describing the event and then move on. Not 24 hour a day coverage for weeks.
 
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the makeout hobo said:
After every time that someone shoots up a school or a post office or a movie theater, the NRA and gun advocates come out and say that the solution isn't to limit access to firearms. So let's (for the purpose of this thread) accept the axiom that gun rights should not be impeded in any way. What can we as a society do to try to limit massacres? Or should we just accept that these incidents are like the weather and we can't do anything to stop them? How can we stop these from happening as often? I actually want to hear ideas and encourage dialogue here, not turn this into some sort of pro/anti firearm thread.
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So you're saying, "let's discuss a solution, apart from a proposed solution I don't happen to believe in". Seems a little blinkered. I'm not even arguing that greater gun control would be the best solution, but to say that you won't even consider that it may have a part to play suggests you're already drinking the NRA kool-aid.
 
the makeout hobo said:
After every time that someone shoots up a school or a post office or a movie theater, the NRA and gun advocates come out and say that the solution isn't to limit access to firearms. So let's (for the purpose of this thread) accept the axiom that gun rights should not be impeded in any way. What can we as a society do to try to limit massacres? Or should we just accept that these incidents are like the weather and we can't do anything to stop them? How can we stop these from happening as often? I actually want to hear ideas and encourage dialogue here, not turn this into some sort of pro/anti firearm thread.
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Why? Because the NRA and gun advocates won't like it? Who the hell cares if they won't ****ing like it. You want to talk about preventing a shooting spree, but don't want to talk about the things that shoot bullets? I'm not saying that stricter gun control or anything to do with guns could/would be part of a solution, hell I don't know if there is any way to prevent these kind of incidents, but we can surely ****ing talk about it right?

You know why the NRA and many on the right say "Its too early to talk about gun control, gun policy, etc" its not because its "too early" or that any of the victims are sitting a hospital right now thinking "Gee I hope they don't talk about guns on TV." No, its because they are afraid. They are afraid that if people start to discuss gun laws/policy after a tragic event like this that the knee jerk reaction will be to enforce tighter gun laws, its not out of concern for the victims not getting enough attention is about self interest.

All I can say is that there's no way to talk about gun violence, whether as an individual or national problem, whether its 1 victim or dozens and then say "Oh but we can't talk about the actual gun." What that tells me is that their argument is weak, because clearly they don't have confidence in using it.
 
the makeout hobo said:
After every time that someone shoots up a school or a post office or a movie theater, the NRA and gun advocates come out and say that the solution isn't to limit access to firearms. So let's (for the purpose of this thread) accept the axiom that gun rights should not be impeded in any way. What can we as a society do to try to limit massacres? Or should we just accept that these incidents are like the weather and we can't do anything to stop them? How can we stop these from happening as often? I actually want to hear ideas and encourage dialogue here, not turn this into some sort of pro/anti firearm thread.
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While I don't wish to diminish the tragedy of any loss of life. I can't think of a solution for these things that isn't worse than the problem itself. We don't need a bigger security apparatus in this country as that never solves anything.
 
So...really now...you are proposing an end to video games? An end to violence in movies? An end to the contributory media access that promotes and glorifies violence as an acceptable outlet? You think that will fly?

Restrictions on firearms does nothing. It doesnt stop gangs from getting any manner of weapons, along with their illegal drugs. It didnt stop bank robbers in California from managing to buy fully automatic weapons. An 'assault rifle' ban wouldnt have stopped this guy...remember...his 'assault rifle' jammed and he had to switch to handguns and a shotgun. It wouldnt have stopped Cho in VaTech...he ONLY used handguns. Those that keep rubbing their tiny little hardons bloody at the thought of using this and other tragedies as a chance to pass restrictions on constitutional freedoms that they dont happen to like are disgusting and repugnant.

We live in more violent time. We have access to more violent imagery. Video games endorse many of these ideas...hell you CANT be shocked that some people see their lives as so completely pathetic and worthless that actions like what we saw this last week become acceptable...desirable even. The BEST way to combat these things is by promoting self reliance and self defense. End the era of roll over and die victim mentality. First shot...that might be a car, or it may be an argument gone bad. Second shot...meh...COULD be nothing. 14th shot...hmmm...Id best start doing more than looking for a convenient place to die. The police do a great job at what they do, but they arent there to protect you. its NOT their job. Its yours.
 
Wiseone said:
Why? Because the NRA and gun advocates won't like it? Who the hell cares if they won't ****ing like it. You want to talk about preventing a shooting spree, but don't want to talk about the things that shoot bullets? I'm not saying that stricter gun control or anything to do with guns could/would be part of a solution, hell I don't know if there is any way to prevent these kind of incidents, but we can surely ****ing talk about it right?

You know why the NRA and many on the right say "Its too early to talk about gun control, gun policy, etc" its not because its "too early" or that any of the victims are sitting a hospital right now thinking "Gee I hope they don't talk about guns on TV." No, its because they are afraid. They are afraid that if people start to discuss gun laws/policy after a tragic event like this that the knee jerk reaction will be to enforce tighter gun laws, its not out of concern for the victims not getting enough attention is about self interest.
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This is a reasonable fear given that there are those who will try to exploit the emotions people feel after a tragedy like this for their own anti-gun interests and they're no more concerned for than the victims than those right wing and pro-gun rights people you mention.

Personally, it seems counter intuitive to think the government is actually, somehow, protecting me by seeking to disarm me. Guns are illegal in Mexico. Are Mexican citizens any safer from gun violence?

All I can say is that there's no way to talk about gun violence, whether as an individual or national problem, whether its 1 victim or dozens and then say "Oh but we can't talk about the actual gun." What that tells me is that their argument is weak, because clearly they don't have confidence in using it.
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Where I live 5 people were killed just this weekend by a drunk driver. Cars have been used as tools of intentional murder, too. In fact, I would suspect there are far more car and traffic fatalities than gun related deaths (admittedly, I'd need to look up those stats to be sure). Why is there never a cry for "vehicle control"?
 
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the makeout hobo said:
After every time that someone shoots up a school or a post office or a movie theater, the NRA and gun advocates come out and say that the solution isn't to limit access to firearms. So let's (for the purpose of this thread) accept the axiom that gun rights should not be impeded in any way. What can we as a society do to try to limit massacres? Or should we just accept that these incidents are like the weather and we can't do anything to stop them? How can we stop these from happening as often? I actually want to hear ideas and encourage dialogue here, not turn this into some sort of pro/anti firearm thread.
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we should improve access to health care, and monitor mental illness more thoroughly, especially paranoid schizophrenia.
 
X Factor said:
Why is there never a cry for "vehicle control"?
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Because that already exist. You need a licence to drive (requiring tests of your ability to drive safely), there are enforced checks on the road-worthiness of vehicles and heavy restrictions on where and how they can be driven. If it wasn't for the 2nd Amendment, I've no doubt you'd have similar rules and restrictions on firearms.

In answer to the OP's wider question, it is clear that you can't do anything to gaurentee such tragedies won't occur. I suspect there is scope for better focus on identifying and treating at risk individuals but there are issues with personal freedom there too but in general (and this should apply to gun ownership too), there needs to be a balance struck between freedom to do whatever you want and the efforts to create as safe and secure a society as possible. Otherwise, what's the point in having that society at all?
 
Here's my take on it.

1. Require all public businesses with an occupancy capacity beyond 150 people that restrict or deny individuals the RTKBA on their property to provide ON-SITE, armed security AT ALL TIMES..

2. Require the same for all Government buildings.

3. Implement necessary changes in the law to REQUIRE mental health professionals to provide information on potentially dangerous patients to the appropriate local, state, and federal authorities and also REQUIRE that states pass that (and other info) along to NICS as well.

4. Start rebuilding the ideal that Americans FIGHT BACK rather than hiding under chairs waiting for the local police to come and save them.
 
Without knowing what motivated the guy, it's hard to say what prevented it. He's obviously mentally ill though, so a single-payer healthcare system that pays for psychiatric therapy might help. Trying to remove the stigma of being treated for mental problems that is present in our society might help as well (though I have no idea how you'd do it). Other than that, I really can't think of much that would have had much of a shot at fixing this. Sometimes crazy people do crazy things, and there's nothing you can do about it.
 
Ok, I'm going to say it. You can't stop massacres. You can tighten the laws every single time and they will continue to happen. It is easy to stress over each incident because the media puts it right there in our face but really, how frequent are these things in a country of over 300 million people

Right now just about any of us on this board could come up with a way to kill a lot of people that would probably work. But we don't do it because we aren't sociopaths. And most sociopaths don't do it because they don' want to end up in prison.

It is possible our culture will change over time so that these things happen even less often than they already do, but I don't think we can force it.
 
the makeout hobo said:
After every time that someone shoots up a school or a post office or a movie theater, the NRA and gun advocates come out and say that the solution isn't to limit access to firearms. So let's (for the purpose of this thread) accept the axiom that gun rights should not be impeded in any way. What can we as a society do to try to limit massacres? Or should we just accept that these incidents are like the weather and we can't do anything to stop them? How can we stop these from happening as often? I actually want to hear ideas and encourage dialogue here, not turn this into some sort of pro/anti firearm thread.
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There isn't much that society can do to prevent incidents like this, because you can't predict the actions and mental states of individuals at all times. People who go to this type of extremes are typically socially and psychologically isolated, and if there isn't someone who knows them well enough to see a potential problem, then intervention is next to impossible.
 
the makeout hobo said:
After every time that someone shoots up a school or a post office or a movie theater, the NRA and gun advocates come out and say that the solution isn't to limit access to firearms. So let's (for the purpose of this thread) accept the axiom that gun rights should not be impeded in any way. What can we as a society do to try to limit massacres? Or should we just accept that these incidents are like the weather and we can't do anything to stop them? How can we stop these from happening as often? I actually want to hear ideas and encourage dialogue here, not turn this into some sort of pro/anti firearm thread.
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These are not very common events. We also have no knowledge of the future. How do we prevent them? We don't. Given enough people, some one will eventually act out and there's always going to be the "well what if", but if we aggregate all the "what if's" we end up not free. Quite simply put, low probability events such as this shooting are going to happen from time to time in a free nation.
 
the makeout hobo said:
After every time that someone shoots up a school or a post office or a movie theater, the NRA and gun advocates come out and say that the solution isn't to limit access to firearms. So let's (for the purpose of this thread) accept the axiom that gun rights should not be impeded in any way. What can we as a society do to try to limit massacres?
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Schools, post offices, the Aurora movie theater, the mall in Utah, and many other places where such things have happened, are all 'anti-gun zones'. Clearly we need to teach criminals to obey such signs.

Or perhaps realize that areas like that draw this sort of mass murdering chaos, and rid ourselves of them.
 
Wiseone said:
All I can say is that there's no way to talk about gun violence, whether as an individual or national problem, whether its 1 victim or dozens and then say "Oh but we can't talk about the actual gun." What that tells me is that their argument is weak, because clearly they don't have confidence in using it.
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I blame forks for making people fat. Since issues relating to morbid obesity are some of the leading causes of death and increased health care costs in this country, it would be stupid to not discuss forks as part of the problem.
 
85 Americans every day are shot to death. That's ten 911's every year. THEN there's the annual massacre.

 
Manc Skipper said:
85 Americans every day are shot to death. That's ten 911's every year. THEN there's the annual massacre.

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Yes...we DO have quite a different culture than Britain (or the Middle East where Eddie Izzard was born). And while he is a great comedian and modest actor, his comedy gig doesnt address where those gun deaths occur typically and who is committing those crimes, merely that people die by lead poisoning. However it DOES make a good point. Virtually ALL firearms used in gang violence and other forms of criminal activity were gotten illegally, just as the crack, heroin, pot, and other drugs they peddle were also gotten illegally. Point being...its not the GUNS that cause the problem. And I just cant WAIT to see you and others lining up to target the culture.
 
VanceMack said:
Point being...its not the GUNS that cause the problem. And I just cant WAIT to see you and others lining up to target the culture.
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Don't hold your breath- you'll pass out long before you get to see the dancing on eggshells.
 
Nothing the government could do would stop such as this from happening.
 
Britain Castratis ban handguns and now knives and violence goes up

Americans buy up millions of semi auto rifles and handguns and liberalize Carry permits and crime goes down

we have CITIZENS who can defend themselves, they have EUNUCHS who get arrested if they fight back against crime
 
Ten 911's happen every year in the US where Americans die of "lead poisoning". That's a terrible price to pay so you can strap on your S&W dildo.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Ten 911's happen every year in the US where Americans die of "lead poisoning". That's a terrible price to pay so you can strap on your S&W dildo.
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We are somewhere around 8-9k a year. 40k from cars. 50k from the flu and pnumonia. 68k from diabetes. 550K from cancer. 600K from heart disease.

Perhaps you should concentrate on the stuff that matters and can probably be addressed without violating constitutional rights.
 
Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, author of the seminal work On Killing, said about a year ago "The kids who launched attacks at Jonesboro in the middle school, Columbine in the high school, and Virginia Tech in the college are going to give us hell in the workplace and domestic environment in the years to come. We must be ready in the malls, in the theaters, in the churches, and in our schools."

When asked what we can do to prevent another Aurora Col. Grossman said, "We have to start covering each other's six." I think he is correct. It's perhaps the only way to live free and safer at the same time. We must depend on each other and others must depend on us. We have to learn to begin to cover each other's back especially in public. If more of us react as a group with a singular purpose than as individuals then maybe the sleazoids will begin to see their attempts as futile.
 
prevent it?

impossible unless we ban all guns, which we should not and cannot.

reduce the damage it could cause?

....limit magazine sizes.

or, here's an exciting idea: require all guns have an automatic disable function when they enter a no-gun zone.

when such technology exists, that would be awesome. :)
 
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