How damaging are Uvalde police actions to the good guy with a gun theory?

[Winston]

I think this cuts both ways. But it does damage the credibility of the NRA’s pet theory.

Apparently an AR-15 is so dangerous that multiple trained, armed professionals wouldn’t even go near it.

Frankly sounds irresponsible of society to continue to make them available to its citizens

 

[Felis Leo]

I think this cuts both ways. But it does damage the credibility of the NRA’s pet theory.

Apparently an AR-15 is so dangerous that multiple trained, armed professionals wouldn’t even go near it.

Frankly sounds irresponsible of society to continue to make them available to its citizens

I would say it has no effect, Winston. Cowards who hem and haw and prevent screaming parents from trying to rescue their children aren't "good guys."

A good guy with a gun did stop this shooter before he killed the few remaining children in the classroom who managed to remain silent and feign death. But it was a Border Patrol agent who apparently went in against the admonitions of the police with full knowledge that he was walking to his death, not a police officer.

 

[aociswundumho]

I think this cuts both ways. But it does damage the credibility of the NRA’s pet theory.

Apparently an AR-15 is so dangerous that multiple trained, armed professionals wouldn’t even go near it.

No, the stupid pigs were afraid. The parents were quite willing to go in.

Frankly sounds irresponsible of society to continue to make them available to its citizens

On the contrary, it's become even more clear that the cops will not protect you, which means you must protect yourself, which in turn means guns should be more accessible, not less.

 

[Winston]

I would say it has no effect, Winston. Cowards aren't "good guys."

A good guy with a gun did stop this shooter before he killed the few remaining children in the classroom who managed to remain silent and feign death. But it was a Border Patrol agent who apparently went in (against the admonitions of the police with full knowledge that he was walking to his death) not a police officer.

Agreed, a good guy with a gun did put an end to the shooter.

But, the way the NRA frame this discussion they take for granted that most are of exceptional courage as this border patrol hero. But, we see that’s not true.

In order for the good guy with a gun theory to pan out imo, greater than 50% of people would have to have heroic qualities in spades.

Uvalde showed us most simply do not.

 

[Felis Leo]

No, the stupid pigs were afraid. The parents were quite willing to go in.

On the contrary, it's become even more clear that the cops will not protect you, which means you must protect yourself, which in turn means guns should be more accessible, not less.

I am all for good guys (i.e., law-abiding citizens who have no history of unjustified violence or threatening violence upon others) to have as many guns as they wish of as much variety as they wish. Own an AR-15. Buy a dozen different models if you can afford it. But I am also for red flag laws to make sure openly violent nihilists who post their desires to commit mass murders online are legally barred from owning them for a set period of time after notice and a hearing with benefit of counsel.

 

[Winston]

No, the stupid pigs were afraid. The parents were quite willing to go in.



On the contrary, it's become even more clear that the cops will not protect you, which means you must protect yourself, which in turn means guns should be more accessible, not less.

Right your last point occurred to me too.

If the even the cops aren’t going to stop a threat and they are the ones I would advocate to call. Trained professionals. Then you must take matters into your own hands

 

[Callen]

I think it has nothing more to do other than one man making a decision he believed to be right at the time...but it wasn't .

 

[SkyChief]

A Good guy with a gun (off-duty CBP officer) ended the Robb Elementary School massacre.

The Good guy with a gun theory is valid in this case.

 

[Bullseye]

I think this cuts both ways. But it does damage the credibility of the NRA’s pet theory.

Apparently an AR-15 is so dangerous that multiple trained, armed professionals wouldn’t even go near it.

Frankly sounds irresponsible of society to continue to make them available to its citizens

Other than the cops standing around outside there WERE NO good guys with guns - except for the off-duty Board Patrolman.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I think this cuts both ways. But it does damage the credibility of the NRA’s pet theory.

Apparently an AR-15 is so dangerous that multiple trained, armed professionals wouldn’t even go near it.

Frankly sounds irresponsible of society to continue to make them available to its citizens

No effect. The idea of treating any single event, especially an outlier, as reason to make or change policy is moronic. When a tornado or hurricane destroys a building, should we change building codes to try to make that impossible?

 

[Antiwar]

The NRA slogan is stupid.

More guns is stupid.

Lots of stupid going on.

 

[Winston]

No effect. The idea of treating any single event, especially an outlier, as reason to make or change policy is moronic. When a tornado or hurricane destroys a building, should we change building codes to try to make that impossible?

It is kind of stupid but, let’s not pretend that optics don’t matter in politics

 

[Peter]

If you cant rely on the police to go into harms way to stop kids being killed then when are they willing to go into danger?

This is not a political issue it's just an issue of what we expect from people who get jobs as public servants.

 

[Antiwar]

If those cops are smart they'd say "Damn right we didn't want to die" and make a strong call for more effective gun control.

 

[Winston]

The NRA slogan is stupid.

More guns is stupid.

Lots of stupid going on.

You realize the stranglehold it has over the public tho. There are a lot of people who have had NRA propaganda drilled into their brain

 

[Bear5131]

I would say it has no effect, Winston. Cowards who hem and haw and prevent screaming parents from trying to rescue their children aren't "good guys."

A good guy with a gun did stop this shooter before he killed the few remaining children in the classroom who managed to remain silent and feign death. But it was a Border Patrol agent who apparently went in against the admonitions of the police with full knowledge that he was walking to his death, not a police officer.

I always thought border patrol agents were like boy scouts,I have a ton of respect for them now

 

[Peter]

If those cops are smart they'd say "Damn right we didn't want to die" and make a strong call for more effective gun control.

I doubt the first responders on 9/11 wanted to die but they all ran into burning skyscrapers where even if the towers didn't collapse there was a very high risk of death from being trapped or disoriented.
They didn't stand at base of the buildings and conduct risk assessments.

 

[Winston]

I doubt the first responders on 9/11 wanted to die but they all ran into burning skyscrapers where even if the towers didn't collapse there was a very high risk of death from being trapped or disoriented.
They didn't stand at base of the buildings and conduct risk assessments.

You lot can own hunting rifles and shotguns, yeah? But, the licensing there is more rigorous?

 

[ttwtt78640]

It is kind of stupid but, let’s not pretend that optics don’t matter in politics

It’s more than kind of stupid to wonder how to prevent a mass shooter from entering a school with a propped open exterior door and unlocked classroom doors even after they first fired multiple shots into the school from outside.

It’s also hard to understand how someone was allowed to keep shooting for about an hour after multiple police officers had arrived and found *gasp* a locked door between them and an active mass shooter.

Before we start talking about limiting the rights of all, let’s get real about what else should be done to prevent the next HS dropout incel loner from doing the same thing for an hour or so.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

I would say it has no effect, Winston. Cowards who hem and haw and prevent screaming parents from trying to rescue their children aren't "good guys."

A good guy with a gun did stop this shooter before he killed the few remaining children in the classroom who managed to remain silent and feign death. But it was a Border Patrol agent who apparently went in against the admonitions of the police with full knowledge that he was walking to his death, not a police officer.

I strongly agree with this. the cops clearly were not "good guys" in this scenario. The "good buy with a gun" theory isn't a theory. It's just objectively true. You have to have someone who is really good with a gun or some kind of ninjitsu ninja to stop someone with a gun. The argument the "pro gun" side would make is that we need to make sure the "good guys" can still buy guns. The anti gun crowd would argue that it is better to prevent the bad guy from having to be stopped in the first place by implementing gun control.

I think we can do both. I believe we can have gun ownership and prevent "bad guys" from getting guns.

 

[TypicalRussian]

I think this cuts both ways. But it does damage the credibility of the NRA’s pet theory.

Apparently an AR-15 is so dangerous that multiple trained, armed professionals wouldn’t even go near it.

Frankly sounds irresponsible of society to continue to make them available to its citizens

this whole ordeal sounds like a cop problem, not a citizen problem

 

[Captain Adverse]

I think this cuts both ways. But it does damage the credibility of the NRA’s pet theory.

Apparently an AR-15 is so dangerous that multiple trained, armed professionals wouldn’t even go near it.

Frankly sounds irresponsible of society to continue to make them available to its citizens

No effect.

1. Police are not necessarily "good guys with guns." Some have been known to be bad guys with guns. Even so most cops do the job, but it IS their job.

2. The "good guy with a gun" typically refers to another common citizen who stepped forward and used a gun to stop a crime.

There are storied of such good guys with guns. However, they rarely make a splash in national news, mostly being relegated to local news reports.

For what it's worth I found the following link listing 12 incidents in January 2020.

Twelve Stories About 'A Good Guy With A Gun' That Progressives Won't Like

Self-defense.

nationalinterest.org

Good guys with guns simply don't get much play in mainstream media reporting. I won't speculate at to why.

 

[Lursa]

I think this cuts both ways. But it does damage the credibility of the NRA’s pet theory.

Apparently an AR-15 is so dangerous that multiple trained, armed professionals wouldn’t even go near it.

Frankly sounds irresponsible of society to continue to make them available to its citizens

No effect. They are paid professionals. They can be incompetent but they are obligated to get involved in addressing criminal behavior and they wear guns. They have the option to use them.

That saying was not intended to apply to cops. Do you think it was? How about military? There have never been serious discussions about disarming cops in the US that I'm aware of.

OTOH, I think it's stupid expression...I do deserve the right to carry a firearm to protect myself but I have no intentions of protecting anyone but myself/family with it. If there is a crime or active shooter, I'm getting out if I can, taking anyone that wants with me, and calling 911. I'm not covered by any liability for harm to others for a missed shot or damaged property. It makes me a target when the cops do respond. There's many reasons why I'm not interested in ever unholstering my firearm in public, including that even legally shooting 'the bad guy' still leaves me open to possible criminal and civil charges (like from shooter/his family). The legal fees, even if you win, can take your house.

 

[upsideguy]

I think this cuts both ways. But it does damage the credibility of the NRA’s pet theory.

Apparently an AR-15 is so dangerous that multiple trained, armed professionals wouldn’t even go near it.

Frankly sounds irresponsible of society to continue to make them available to its citizens

The "good guy" with a gun theory was idiotic last Saturday and remains so today. What happened in Uvalde has no impact on that assessment.

How the ‘good guy with a gun’ became a deadly American fantasy

The archetype can be traced back to 1920s detective fiction, when gruff, gun-toting, cigarette-smoking mavericks became heroic figures.

www.pbs.org

Breaking down the NRA-backed theory that a good guy with a gun stops a bad guy with a gun

The idea is raised in the wake of many mass shootings.

abcnews.go.com

Opinion | The myth of the "good guy with a gun," debunked by a veteran

I never see a "good guy with a gun:" I see a human more likely to exacerbate a tragedy than to stop it.

www.nbcnews.com

A Good Guy with a Gun?

Refuting a common argument

www.psychologytoday.com

Police "neutralized" the Dayton shooter in 30 seconds. He still shot 14 people.

The timeline is some of the strongest evidence yet that the "good guy with a gun" myth is just that.

www.vox.com

Guns don’t kill people…: good guys and the legitimization of gun violence - Humanities and Social Sciences Communications

Building on literatures that examine why firearms are appealing and to whom and employing Weber’s concept of “legitimate violence”, this paper utilizes an online concealed carry forum to critically analyze how firearm proliferation is rationalized in the U.S. The analysis focuses on three...

www.nature.com

Then, of course, there is the overlooked problem of the "good guy with the gun" theory.... the good guy that was shot and killed by police last year because the "good guy" had a gun at a shooting.

Police chief hails ‘good guy with a gun’ after officer kills him in tragic mistaken identity

Police say the man who shot the gunman prevented a larger loss of life.

thehill.com

Maybe he should have worn his white hat that day.

Unfortunately, we can not solve this problem without lowering the denominator (fewer guns, or more specifically, making access to hyper lethal weapons more difficult), as mush as the NRA wants to kick and scream. If you are not willing to address guns in our culture, you are not willing to effectively deal with active shooter situations.

 

[j brown's body]

It has no effect on gun nuts.