Homosexuls Piggy-Backing Civil Rights Movement

[Hatuey]

I didn't know that you were a black man (African American) take your pick, until this thread. I am a white man...not a Red Neck (though I know many) but a Viking descendant...

But it is refreshing, since I consider you a lot like me in our views... That once race and/or looks is taken out of the equation, we all just have opinions and attitudes and we are all generally nice and love our kids. Who the hell knew? Who the **** cares?

I'm actually half and half(my mom is the very definition of a Cali blonde and my dad is the very definition of a detroit hustler) I dont blaim Tojo for his views. It's the way he was probably raised. I was like that once I blamed white people for everything but then I realized. Yeah they've done some **** in the past but I gotta move on and do what I gotta do to survive.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I was going to add something, but Hatuey and Bodi seem to be doing just fine. Carry on.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Moronic as always. :applaud

Moderator's Warning:

Quit the name-calling.

 

[Hatuey]

I was going to add something, but Hatuey and Bodi seem to be doing just fine. Carry on.

Captain my Captain. Where ya been?

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Captain my Captain. Where ya been?

Completing the destuction of several unskilled debators over at the International, Sex, Religion, and a couple of other forums. Been logging in lots of posts there. Much more powerful, you have become, my young apprentice. :mrgreen: A testament to that, this thread is.:mrgreen:

 

[Hatuey]

Completing the destuction of several unskilled debators over at the International, Sex, Religion, and a couple of other forums. Been logging in lots of posts there. Much more powerful, you have become, my young apprentice. :mrgreen: A testament to that, this thread is.:mrgreen:

Yeah but I'm still training and waiting for the moment we dont see eye to eye on some wierd issue . Yeah this Tojo guy is a real hoot. Apparently I'm a black Judas Iscariot/Marcus Junius Brutus who can't see that you white folks are my oppresors. Lying to myself feels good. Muahahahahaha. Wait....lol

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Yeah but I'm still training and waiting for the moment we dont see eye to eye on some wierd issue . Yeah this Tojo guy is a real hoot. Apparently I'm a black Judas Iscariot/Marcus Junius Brutus who can't see that you white folks are my oppresors. Lying to myself feels good. Muahahahahaha. Wait....lol

Will you then say, 'and now the learner has become the master'? :mrgreen:

 

[Hatuey]

Will you then say, 'and now the learner has become the master'? :mrgreen:

Neva. I shall say "The apprentice has now become a master." You'll always be a king of logic that only Plato could understand

 

[McTojo]

Neva. I shall say "The apprentice has now become a master." You'll always be a king of logic that only Plato could understand

You've only become a pond in the white man's hands, you've proven nor refuted nothing. I never blamed the white man for my shortcomings and I never made an excuse for myself either. I am more successful because I understand the difference, do you ?

I gave you very concise and salient points of which you made some very loose retorts. I guess when you are bi-racial you loose out on a lot of things, especially identity.

 

[McTojo]

Get violent then!

Reparations!

Independence!

Back to Africa!

Black is Beautiful!!

It is so, but why be a dick about it Tojo?

You called me a racist. I am prejudice but not a racist. This argument was about gays piggy backing off of the Civil Rights Movement. I flat out said that it was wrong. Let the gays speak for the gays I say. Don't use our struggle as a pretext to seek more rights. African Americans deserve more respect than that. If the gays and the illegals need more rights--other than basic human rights--then I say let them demand it on their own terms, don't drag our legacy into the mud for it.

Harvey Milk led his own campaign for gays, so follow his lead and leave our leaders out of it. MLK was a man who did a lot for Civil Rights in America which is commendable, but his legacy was over hyped and he was given all the credit whereas other greats like Garvey and Malcolm were given very little recognition for their contributions.

As we debate a Monument is being built in honour of his legacy, thanks in part to former president Bill Clinton and thousands of other non-blacks who saw him as the figure head of the Civil Rights Movement.

 

[Hatuey]

You've only become a pond in the white man's hands, you've proven nor refuted nothing. I never blamed the white man for my shortcomings and I never made an excuse for myself either. I am more successful because I understand the difference, do you ?

Oooh. Playing on my hidden fears of not being accepted by either side are we? I'm very confortable being bi-racial actually. It's a bonus. I've got the best of both worlds. I have a ghetto pass and a honky pass. I tend to understand where both sides are coming from. If anything being bi-racial makes sure I dont become enchanted by extremist ideas people like yourself have on race.The same can't be said for you I'm afraid. You've fallen so far down the hole you probably couldn't get out if you had a helicopter. Not that you could fly one anyways. Do you blame your inhability to fly on the white man to?


I understand you feel like you "deserve" reparations. I'm willing to bet you spend a big percentage of your day trying to come up with reasons as to why. I believe reparations should be made in the form of improving poor neighbourhoods, funding innercity schools and helping the younger generation(which I am part of) to see that there is more to life then playing ball and rapping. Not money or riches. Those would just seem like a worthless gesture on behalf of our "oppressors".

I gave you very concise and salient points of which you made some very loose retorts. I guess when you are bi-racial you loose out on a lot of things, especially identity.

You gave me nothing. All you did was complain about white people having it better then blacks. You insulted the memory and message of MLK Jr. by trying to convince me that he was just talking about black people when it is obvious his message was equality for all men. Regardless of who they are. Strike one.

You then continue to insult his memory by insinuating that he hurt the civil rights movement with his message of and I quote lazyness. This was proven to be an unfound accusation based on the fact that black people today have opportunities King only dreamt about. Strike two.

Then you threw out some statistic(the 70% of all black kids are fatherless). This tactic backfired as it just made it look like black men aren't willing to accept responsability for the children they make. Strike three.

Trust me.

.

Thats about as close as you've gotten to a point throughout this whole debate.
---------------------------

BTW. If I ever claimed that this country ows anything to my family it would be on the basis that my family has spilled blood and fought for this country and is still doing it as we speak. Regardless of the injustices commited towards blacks, for the last 3 generations it's given this country atleast one soldier. 8 in total. That would be the only reason I'd ever claim this country ows any of my family members or I anything. I could easily make the claim that I'm owed something considering I can actually trace my heritage back to African slaves(my great great grandfather was a slave) but just to avoid the "it was 180 years ago " crowd I stay away from that.

 

[McTojo]

Oooh. Playing on my hidden fears of not being accepted by either side are we? I'm very confortable being bi-racial actually. It's a bonus. I've got the best of both worlds. I have a ghetto pass and a honky pass. I tend to understand where both sides are coming from. If anything being bi-racial makes sure I dont become enchanted by extremist ideas people like yourself have on race.The same can't be said for you I'm afraid. You've fallen so far down the hole you probably couldn't get out if you had a helicopter. Not that you could fly one anyways. Do you blame your inhability to fly on the white man to?

What are you talking about ? You sound like a teenager on prozac

I understand you feel like you "deserve" reparations. I'm willing to bet you spend a big percentage of your day trying to come up with reasons as to why. I believe reparations should be made in the form of improving poor neighbourhoods, funding innercity schools and helping the younger generation(which I am part of) to see that there is more to life then playing ball and rapping. Not money or riches. Those would just seem like a worthless gesture on behalf of our "oppressors".

I never made the case for reparations. I said it's a topic that should be discussed. You seem to be doing a pretty good job of making the case yourself, get em' tiger.

You gave me nothing. All you did was complain about white people having it better then blacks. You insulted the memory and message of MLK Jr. by trying to convince me that he was just talking about black people when it is obvious his message was equality for all men. Regardless of who they are. Strike one.

I didn't complain. I have it better than most whites in real life, believe me. I was speaking for the vast majority of African Americans who are far less off than their white counter parts. And I gave you examples to prove that. I can't speak for MLK personally, I never did, I wrote about the message and about how white people chose him as the figure head of the Civil Rights Movement. There's no compaining in that. Maybe he meant equality for all men in his speech but the founding of the Civil Rights Movement was initially for Blacks--way before MLK arrived on the scene. He was a late comer.

You then continue to insult his memory by insinuating that he hurt the civil rights movement with his message of and I quote lazyness. This was proven to be an unfound accusation which is proven to be false based on the fact that black people today have opportunities King only dreamt about. Strike two.

He did hurt the Civil Rights Movement. The NAACP can account for that as he was jailed numberous times. Who do you think bailed him out of jail ? If he had worked together with more leaders that had already been a part of the Civil Rights Movement we could have progressed better as a people. Instead, every other race has benefitted from it leaving us as a people still at the bottom tier of society.

Then you threw out some statistic(the 70% of all black kids are fatherless). This tactic backfired as it just made it look like black men aren't willing to accept responsability for the children they make. Strike three.

Think more deeply about your cogitative skills before say anything else. I gave you a range between 70 and 80%, nothing wrong with that. I don't need to say 71% as figures may change. There is a serious problem when the numbers are that high. I fault the system of racism and society in general (namely blacks who are unstable).

Trust me.



Thats about as close as you've gotten to a point throughout this whole debate.[/QUOTE]

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Neva. I shall say "The apprentice has now become a master." You'll always be a king of logic that only Plato could understand

A wise master, you have become. :2wave:

 

[McTojo]

A wise master, you have become. :2wave:

I think you both need a reality check. I see no masters here, so spare me the courtesy.

 

[Hatuey]

I never made the case for reparations. I said it's a topic that should be discussed. You seem to be doing a pretty good job of making the case yourself, get em' tiger.

He preached inclusion when what he should've been preaching was reparations and and independence.

You obviously believe black people should get reparations because you implied that things would be different if that had been MLKs message. Reparations, the money kind or even the kind that involves giving a chunk of the U.S. to black people, arent worth mentioning. They are silly attempt by lazy pan-africanists and extremists. These people are the real reason black people have yet to suceed. They've managed to fill black people with these ridiculous ideas that we are entitle to something we havent earned.

I didn't complain. I have it better than most whites in real life, believe me. I was speaking for the vast majority of African Americans who are far less off than their white counter parts. And I gave you examples to prove that. I can't speak for MLK personally, I never did, I wrote about the message and about how white people chose him as the figure head of the Civil Rights Movement. There's no compaining in that. Maybe he meant equality for all men in his speech but the founding of the Civil Rights Movement was initially for Blacks--way before MLK arrived on the scene. He was a late comer.

So...if you have it better then most whites it's safe to asume you have it better then most blacks in this country. So how can you possibly relate to what most blacks in this country have to go through? Are you the Al. Sharpton type? The type that preaches about the injustices the white man has commited against the black man and then goes back to his gated community where most of the residents are white? I'm willing to bet half the blood in my body thats exacly the type of black person you are.

He did hurt the Civil Rights Movement. The NAACP can account for that as he was jailed numberous times. Who do you think bailed him out of jail ? If he had worked together with more leaders that had already been a part of the Civil Rights Movement we could have progressed better as a people. Instead, every other race has benefitted from it leaving us as a people still at the bottom tier of society.

So it's basically MLKs fault that some black people today are unable to put aside the grudge they have against white people and focus on what they need to do to suceed? Give me a ****ing break.

Think more deeply about your cogitative skills before say anything else. I gave you a range between 70 and 80%, nothing wrong with that. I don't need to say 71% as figures may change. There is a serious problem when the numbers are that high. I fault the system of racism and society in general (namely blacks who are unstable).

The system of racism? what? How is racism responsible for a black man having sex, making a child and then refusing to take responsability for that life? Wake the **** up man.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

An observation. This debate is starting to sound like a standard extremist vs. moderate debate. I am not calling McTojo an extremist. What I am saying is that MLK was more of a moderating force in the Civil Rights Movement. Because of this, he was able to be more of a 'face' and create more acceptance in the movement, by those that needed to accept it for things to be in motion. Regardless of his importance or positions, having Malcolm X as the 'face' of the movement would have been disasterous, because of the need of acceptance. Malcolm wouldn't have been percieved as acceptable, which would have hurt civil rights. Whether or not MLK was a late-comer or whether his contributions, in some ways, weren't as significant as others, his importance in the civil rights movement is unchallenged in weight. His moderate position and ability to be an acceptable representative allowed black civil rights to proceed in the way that it did. This is further evidence to me that the moderates in any group or movement are the ones, when taking the lead, that can create success for their cause.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I think you both need a reality check. I see no masters here, so spare me the courtesy.

Inside joke, McTojo. Completely undirected at you.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

And as an afterthought, yes, every other group has benefitted from MLK's legacy. This further shows the immense magnitude of this great man's importance, and how his wisdom and spirit trancended race.

 

[Hatuey]

An observation. This debate is starting to sound like a standard extremist vs. moderate debate. I am not calling McTojo an extremist. What I am saying is that MLK was more of a moderating force in the Civil Rights Movement. Because of this, he was able to be more of a 'face' and create more acceptance in the movement, by those that needed to accept it for things to be in motion. Regardless of his importance or positions, having Malcolm X as the 'face' of the movement would have been disasterous, because of the need of acceptance. Malcolm wouldn't have been percieved as acceptable, which would have hurt civil rights. Whether or not MLK was a late-comer or whether his contributions, in some ways, weren't as significant as others, his importance in the civil rights movement is unchallenged in weight. His moderate position and ability to be an acceptable representative allowed black civil rights to proceed in the way that it did. This is further evidence to me that the moderates in any group or movement are the ones, when taking the lead, that can create success for their cause.

As always you nailed it. :2wave:

 

[McTojo]

You obviously believe black people should get reparations because you implied that things would be different if that had been MLKs message. Reparations, the money kind or even the kind that involves giving a chunk of the U.S. to black people, arent worth mentioning. They are silly attempt by lazy pan-africanists and extremists. These people are the real reason black people have yet to suceed. They've managed to fill black people with these ridiculous ideas that we are entitle to something we havent earned.

I implied no such thing whatsoever. Reparations should be discussed or preached about. I haven't laid any claims to reparations at all this whole entire debate, you did, remember ? (...." you gave that BTW spill in your other post").

So here's my 'on the record' opinion about reparations: I believe that a money deal is out of the question. I also believe that affirmative action was part of the deal( 2nd or 3rd reconstruction (?)). However, affirmative action was killed by powerful lobbyist--blacks included e.g., Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, black man, fought against affirmative action and succeeded, a man who benefited from it twice, once in college...i.e.,he didn't have the GPA to get into Yale, but when he finally made it he got his J.D. which enabled him to practice law. Second time was his appointment to the U.S. Supreme Court under Geoarge Bush Senior who saw him as an outspoken conservative--Mr. Clarence had very very little law experience--the average city prosecuter had more experience than he did, before his appointment.

N.B. Clarence Thomas alma matter was Holy Cross College where he earned an A.B. in Theology !

You see where we fail.

 

[McTojo]

So...if you have it better then most whites it's safe to asume you have it better then most blacks in this country. So how can you possibly relate to what most blacks in this country have to go through? Are you the Al. Sharpton type? The type that preaches about the injustices the white man has commited against the black man and then goes back to his gated community where most of the residents are white? I'm willing to bet half the blood in my body thats exacly the type of black person you are.

I was raised in L.A. too. I grew up on the corner of Gage and Vermont Blvd. in the arm pit an urban ghetto( Palms Apartment near 68th Street School). I seen first hand the genocide that was wrought against our own people by our own people. I relate to black problems.

We can't grow cocaine in the ghetto(improper climate and poor soil) we can neither manufacture Uzi's which are Isreali made machine guns that fire rapidly and fully automatic depending how you rig it. None of these things have their origins in the ghetto's of America. So who's letting this stuff in ???

Koreans come into our ghettos and place liquor stores on every single corner--in proximity to a black church, might I add. But they wouldn't go into an affluent neighborhood with such filth, now would they ? And we patronize them and give them our money then 20 years later they sell the store to an Arab then take their little nest egg and return home rich or even better they go to the bank and apply for the same loan we were rejected over fifteen minutes ago, and get it !

You can't seem to see the system of oppression Hatuey. All you do is blame blacks for their problems but you don't look at the institutions that willfully work against blacks e.g. Loans, it's very had for blacks to get loans, why ? Lack of credit. Is that their fault ? Yes, but if they could hold down a decent job, other than cleaning toilets would they be better off ? Or maybe if they had the time and resources to return to school they could get a better job ? All that sounds good, but to actually go through with it is very difficult. Take into consideration family and living expenses and other problems. Give the black man a break. You could've kept affirmative action for a decade or two, gave an entire generation of blacks a gold nugget to do what their parents couldn't do besides VOTE. Affirmative action could've helped thousands of young black get into better universities, higher paying jobs( better credit). Then in a few years time remove it.

 

[McTojo]

An observation. This debate is starting to sound like a standard extremist vs. moderate debate. I am not calling McTojo an extremist. What I am saying is that MLK was more of a moderating force in the Civil Rights Movement. Because of this, he was able to be more of a 'face' and create more acceptance in the movement, by those that needed to accept it for things to be in motion. Regardless of his importance or positions, having Malcolm X as the 'face' of the movement would have been disasterous, because of the need of acceptance. Malcolm wouldn't have been percieved as acceptable, which would have hurt civil rights. Whether or not MLK was a late-comer or whether his contributions, in some ways, weren't as significant as others, his importance in the civil rights movement is unchallenged in weight. His moderate position and ability to be an acceptable representative allowed black civil rights to proceed in the way that it did. This is further evidence to me that the moderates in any group or movement are the ones, when taking the lead, that can create success for their cause.

Yes, this is true, MLK was seen as a moderate who enjoyed broad appeal from both whites and blacks. Whether it was a success is left up to another discussion.

Malcolm X represented the Nation of Islam and so he couldn't have represented the civil rights movement because he wasn't calling for civil rights to begin with i.e., black independence and pan-africanism and most of all unity.

 

[Hatuey]

I was raised in L.A. too. I grew up on the corner of Gage and Vermont Blvd. in the arm pit an urban ghetto( Palms Apartment near 68th Street School). I seen first hand the genocide that was wrought against our own people by our own people. I relate to black problems.

Ah you will obviously agree that it was not the white man who made a black man pick up a gun and kill another black man.

We can't grow cocaine in the ghetto(improper climate and poor soil) we can neither manufacture Uzi's which are Isreali made machine guns that fire rapidly and fully automatic depending how you rig it. None of these things have their origins in the ghetto's of America. So who's letting this stuff in ???

Oh boy. Who's letting this stuff in? The people that buy the guns. Not the people selling them. Nobody makes people join gangs get strapped and start trapping. It's voluntary. Just like the army.

Koreans come into our ghettos and place liquor stores on every single corner--in proximity to a black church, might I add. But they wouldn't go into an affluent neighborhood with such filth, now would they ? And we patronize them and give them our money then 20 years later they sell the store to an Arab then take their little nest egg and return home rich or even better they go to the bank and apply for the same loan we were rejected over fifteen minutes ago, and get it !

So if we're willingly giving them our money who's fault is it exacly? Do you blame a gun sales man for a homocide committed with his gun?

You can't seem to see the system of oppression Hatuey.

No I guess it's cause maybe there is none. I'm living proof.

All you do is blame blacks for their problems but you don't look at the institutions that willfully work against blacks

Hey look. Black people in this country have as many chances if not more then whites do. Do they take advantage of them? Not always. So what are you complaining about? Their innhability to do as I did pick up a book and study? Or the white man not giving you everything you want on a silver platter?

e.g. Loans, it's very had for blacks to get loans, why ? Lack of credit. Is that their fault ? Yes, but if they could hold down a decent job, other than cleaning toilets would they be better off ?

Despite the poverty levels of many African American communities, current information points to a continuation of a long-term trend toward parity with national levels and absolutely higher levels of affluence than those experienced by most populations outside the United States.[citation needed] Since the mid to late 1990s, African American incomes have risen at a remarkable pace and the progress shows up at every income level - from the still-large but shrinking underclass, to the fast-developing black middle class, to the growing ranks of wealthy African Americans.[citation needed] Over 1.7 million African Americans have gone off the poverty rolls; earnings by African American women have moved to within a few percentage points of white womens'; and unemployment among blacks in recent years has dropped below the 10 percent mark.[citation needed] The poverty rate among African Americans has dropped from 26.5% in 1998 to 24.7% in 2004.[16] The growth in African American incomes is translating into big gains in buying power and opportunities for black businesses

African American - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sounds to me like the situation is improving.

Or maybe if they had the time and resources to return to school they could get a better job ?

Black people have these resources. Do they put them to use? Not always. I've worked 80+ hours a week for less then 6$ an hour while at the same time being in school. It's hard but it can be done.

All that sounds good, but to actually go through with it is very difficult. Take into consideration family and living expenses and other problems. Give the black man a break.

Black men in this country couldn't get a bigger break if they wanted. They have all these scholarships that while paraded as for everyone are for black students. They have the NAACP, Black masons, Negro college funds, historically black schools. What more do you want exacly?

You could've kept affirmative action for a decade or two, gave an entire generation of blacks a gold nugget to do what their parents couldn't do besides VOTE.

Look buddy the way I see it. A black law student with 3.5GPA does not deserve a job more then a white law student with a 4.0GPA does. It's really that simple. I dont support mediocrity in any form or manner. I work in a business environment where I need to keep a step ahead of all my competitors. Think of me as your neighbourhood drug dealer. Always having to upgrade and think of new ways to sell. Affirmative action is nothing more then a handout an any black person who benefited from it should live in the shame that they didn't get their job because they were masters of their habilities but because of the pigmentation of their skin.

Affirmative action could've helped thousands of young black get into better universities, higher paying jobs( better credit). Then in a few years time remove it.

If you are unable to become sucessful on your own then you really weren't ment for success were you? Why reward mediocrity? If you're not better then other people at what you do. You dont deserve to have what they have. It's really that simple buddy.

 

[Flea]

McTojo, can you get back on topic please? This is really interesting and I would like to continue, but this is not the correct thread. If you want to discuss this issue, start your own thread, I am tired of filtering through you and Hatuey's stuff in an effort to read what people might be thinking about Homosexuls Piggy-Backing Civil Rights Movement

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Moderator's Warning:

And I take responsibility for contributing to the thread jack. Let's all get back on topic and/or start a new thread on Black Civil Rights. Wow, I just moderated myself. :lol: