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Hoot

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Abortion is not going away.

Got that?

Let me say it again...abortion is not going away!

We had numerous abortions in this country well before Roe V Wade, well before abortion was made legal.

If Roe V Wade is overturned, think that will end it all? If you answer yes, then get your head unstucked from where the sun don't shine.

Want to decrease abortions?

Then get behind better sex education and more wide spread use and availability of contraceptives. Attack the problem at the beginning instead of after the girl is already pregnant....try programs that may help prevent pregnancy in the first place! Doh! Unfortunately..most of those on the 'right' are against any of the programs that help prevent pregnancy...oh..except for abstinance...which has been the biggest failure around.

Otherwise...every single one of you pro-lifers are hypocrites.

Instead of attacking the doctor, why don't you pro-lifers demand the incarceration of the female who gets an abortion? Isn't she just as guilty of murder in your eyes?
 

Aelfwine

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Hoot said:
We had numerous abortions in this country well before Roe V Wade, well before abortion was made legal.
The FACT of abortion does not lessen the EVIL of abortion.

Unfortunately..most of those on the 'right' are against any of the programs that help prevent pregnancy...oh..except for abstinance...which has been the biggest failure around.
:lol: Right. Are you aware that you can't get pregnant if you don't have sex?

Otherwise...every single one of you pro-lifers are hypocrites.
No. This is not logically consistent.

I oppose contraception because it is an unatural abuse of sex, which is meant to produce children. I oppose abortion because it is the illegitimate killing of an innocent human being.
 

Naughty Nurse

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Aelfwine said:
I oppose contraception because it is an unatural abuse of sex, which is meant to produce children. I oppose abortion because it is the illegitimate killing of an innocent human being.
Make your mind up - you seem to want to have your cake and eat it. If we have less contraception and less sex effective sex education we will have more need for abortion. It's that simple.
 

ShamMol

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So correct, think about it this way. If a woman is going to get an abortion, would you rather her go to a back alley to get it and risk death and extreme damage, or would you rather have her go to a safe doctor? I guess some who are vindictive would want her to die, but I don't.
 

Imudman

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ShamMol said:
So correct, think about it this way. If a woman is going to get an abortion, would you rather her go to a back alley to get it and risk death and extreme damage, or would you rather have her go to a safe doctor? I guess some who are vindictive would want her to die, but I don't.
There is a third option, which is also the most likely - the woman will carry the baby to term.
 

V.I. Lenin

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We should force her to carry it? Even if she doesn't want to? Even though it is fully dependant on her and is basically a parasite of the mother and not recogonized as living by more then half of America we should force her to have it?

Land of the free, oh yeah.
 

Imudman

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V.I. Lenin said:
We should force her to carry it? Even if she doesn't want to? Even though it is fully dependant on her and is basically a parasite of the mother and not recogonized as living by more then half of America we should force her to have it?

Land of the free, oh yeah.
No one should be free to kill an innocent human being, whether most of America agrees with it or not. I wonder if most Germans agreed with killing the Jews during WWII and before ...
 

Aelfwine

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Make your mind up - you seem to want to have your cake and eat it. If we have less contraception and less sex effective sex education we will have more need for abortion. It's that simple.
First of all, I would seriously question the "need" for abortion. Is there ever a "need" to destroy an innocent human being? If my little brother annoys me, or gets me in financial trouble, or embarasses me, do I "need" to kill him?

And second, two wrongs don't make a right. Contraception seperates the procreative act from procreation itself; it is completly unnatural.
 

Naughty Nurse

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Aelfwine said:
And second, two wrongs don't make a right. Contraception seperates the procreative act from procreation itself; it is completly unnatural.
Can you find a non-fictional source to support that point?
 

Aelfwine

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How about common sense?

Sex is the process by which we reproduce. That is the purpose of sex, just as the purpose of eating is to provid us with nutrients. Since the purpose, the natural end, of the sexual act is reproduction, anything that seperates sex from procreation is unnatural.
 

Naughty Nurse

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Aelfwine said:
How about common sense?

Sex is the process by which we reproduce. That is the purpose of sex, just as the purpose of eating is to provid us with nutrients. Since the purpose, the natural end, of the sexual act is reproduction, anything that seperates sex from procreation is unnatural.
So you only ever eat for nutritional purposes and you choose only 100% natural, unprocessed foods, and you never eat things just because you like them? Because otherwise you are seperating eating from nutrition and that would be unnatural.

Driving a car, or using public transport is unnatural. Do you walk everywhere? Wearing clothing is unnatural. Do you walk everywhere naked? Icould go on for ever. Have I made my point?

BTW - as a gay man I can see no connection between my sex life and procreation.
 

Aelfwine

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Eating more than you need is indeed unatural, and is otherwise known as gluttony. And gluttony makes people fat and unhealthy. However, it is not as serious a matter as reproduction, for many reasons of which you are no doubt aware.

Driving is not contrary to the purpose of legs, sorry. Legs are a means of transportation; cars are another. And since all cultures, except for a few in very hot places whose people have very dark skin, use clothing for protection and modesty, they are clearly natural in origin.

As for homosexuality, it is wrong for the same reasons as contraception and then some. But as both homosexuality and contraception, when practiced consensually, do not infringe on the rights of others, it's your own business.
 

Busta

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The immorality of homosexuality is based on faith in God. A "believer" trusts in God's authority and obeys God's commands.
Obviously, if you do not have faith in God then you would not be trusting of His authority and not follow His commands.
If you put God into the argument, the argument is instantly resolved.
If you take God out of the argument, there is no argument.
 

V.I. Lenin

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Busta said:
The immorality of homosexuality is based on faith in God. A "believer" trusts in God's authority and obeys God's commands.
Obviously, if you do not have faith in God then you would not be trusting of His authority and not follow His commands.
If you put God into the argument, the argument is instantly resolved.
If you take God out of the argument, there is no argument.
And the immorality of abortion is based on faith in god.
A "believer" thinks he knows what god wants and thinks he should force this on the rest of the country, even if a majority don't want it, while a non-believer understands in a democracy the majority gets their way.
If you put god into the argument, the argument turns into the minority throwing bibles and guilt trips at the majoirty.
If you take god out of the argument, we actually have a democracy.
 

Aelfwine

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The immorality of abortion is not based on God, it is based on whether or not the fetus is a person.

If it is, than abortion is murder, and nearly everyone agrees that murder is wrong.
 

vergiss

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When you have a way of proving what makes a person a person, let me know. I'll be most interested.
 

Busta

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When the people had no lawyers, the natural law governed us and we were able to keep the candor of our souls. If you would say that the immorality of abortion is based on the immorality of murder, then I would say that the immorality of murder is based on God's divine natural law. This is illustrated in the original sin of Cain.

Just as a baby finds it's mothers breast in the dark by instinct, so do people who have been led into error by your erroneous doctrine ("right" to choose, "my body, my choice") and, dare I say, RELIGIOUS ceremonies (abortion), recognize by instinct the divine natural law of our Father.

I used to support abortion. I authorized 2 of my own children to be sucked into a sink.
But I have don some growing up since then.
 

Busta

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America is not a democracy. It never was. America is a Republic.
The majority of our elected representatives get their way, not the majority of the public.

Aside from that, the whole of american legal authority comes from God:

"...that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights..."[/I]

This means that any right that you have was given to you by God.

"And for the support of this deceleration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine providence,...."

This means that Gods authority and God's kingdom are the foundation of authority of the deceleration of independence.

If you deny the divine authority of God then you deny the legal authority of the United States.
 

V.I. Lenin

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I guess I'm a criminal then, huh?

Did they specify what God? My God tells me that abortion is ok.
 

Busta

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You are a criminal of the state if you broke a state law. I'm not aware if disbelief in the state's authority is a crime.

Everyone sins, so everyone is a criminal in the eyes of God.

Which God?
The universe only has one soul, so there is only one God; And He shears his power with no one. There are no others, false or otherwise.

People have different understandings and faiths of God. Maybe that is what you are referring too.
You may be surprised to learn that Christianity, Judaism and Islam all have a common prophet in Abraham and worship the same God as Abraham did.
The ancient pantheons of Greece, Norway, Roam and Egypt as well as the modern pantheons of Wicca are based on the Nefilim, not God. Native American's know God by the name Swinio'; the rest of their religion is composed of ancestors and spirits.
Satanism and Druidic cults worship the fallen Morning Star as well as a cocktail of other deities.

Scientifically speaking: I hypothesize that an unborn child is its own person.
For supporting evidence I present the facts that 1) an unborn child has it's own D.N.A. from conception, 2) an unborn child has its own circulatory system, 3) an unborn child has its own nervous system.
You can look up these 3 facts at a planned parenthood website.
Given that these 3 evidences are Scientifically proven biological facts, my hypothesis evolves into a valid theory.
I shall call it: "Busta's theory of the unborn person".
Since "Busta's theory of the unborn person" is backed with irrefutable scientific fact, it would logically follow that an unborn person be protected by the state from harm just like any other person. Further more, being unborn should be a protected class; just like race, gender or sexual orientation.
 

vergiss

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Busta said:
I used to support abortion. I authorized 2 of my own children to be sucked into a sink.
But I have don some growing up since then.
So you're a hypocrite? Well done. Extra points on not just one, but two. Generally, intelligent people don't repeat their mistakes.

Seeing as you fall into the "pagans-worship-the-devil" category, I daresay your opinion on the matter isn't all that educated. Go back to the PP website and re-check exactly how far along a foetus is before it has its circulatory and nervous systems.

By the way, I'm pretty sure God would resent you pretending that you had any authority to speak for him.
 

Busta

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You are correct, generally intelligent people do not repeat their mistakes. I was not generally intelligent then, so I repeated my mistakes.

After the second abortion I grew a brain cell or two and looked at abortion and said "abortion is wrong". After that, I gave the following two children to a loving couple who could not have children.
After the second adoption I grew a few more brain cells and said "maybe I should keep it in my pants until im ready to start a family". I lacked the self control to do that, and I knew it. So I went to a clinic and said "I want a vasectomy". They said "we need your wife to sign this waver". I told them "it's my body, my choice", they said "your wife has reproductive rights", I said "go f**k your selves", and resigned to start a family earlier than I had expected.

Learning from our mistakes does not make us hypocrites, it makes us smarter then we were.

I used to be a pagan and my coven never worshiped the devil. That's why I did not say "pagans-worship-the-devil". I said "The ancient pantheons of Greece, Norway, Roam and Egypt as well as the modern pantheons of Wicca are based on the Nefilim, not God.". If you are including Druids when you refer to pagans, then the statement "pagans-worship-the-devil" would be misleading because only a small number of pagans worship the devil.

If we are to look at when human features develop in order to determine when a person is a person, then a newborn is not a person either because it's undeveloped brain lacks the ability to form logical thought and reason. If we were to accept the assumption that a person must be fully formed in order to be considered a person, then no one would be a person until after puberty. An even more dangerous consequence of this assumption is that elderly people would start to dis-qualify as people the more their body's degrade.

I have not tried to forgive anyone's sins nor do I claim to be God or the son of God. So when you accuse me of speaking with the authority of God you must be referring to speaking the truth. I am speaking the truth. If you consider speaking the truth as speaking with the authority of God, well, in a way, your'e correct.

We should speak the truth.
 

vergiss

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Ah. A male. So your wife just had the abortions and adopted out the children as you commanded?
 

Busta

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When reciting events I speak for myself, not others. If my wife chooses to join this blog she can speak for her self on the part that she played.
 

vergiss

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Considering she has the uterus, I daresay it was the lead role.
 
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