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Hamas raids, closes NGO offices

donsutherland1

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Hamas’s security forces on Monday and Tuesday raided the offices of several non-governmental organizations in the Gaza Strip and confiscated equipment and furniture, drawing sharp condemnations from human rights groups.

The sources said the raids were carried out by agents belonging to Hamas’s Internal Security apparatus without court permission.
Hamas raids, closes NGO offices

This kind of situation is an example why one simply cannot lift the maritime blockade on the Gaza Strip. Unless robust mechanisms, including a strong enforcement component, are in place to prevent Hamas and its personnel from deriving benefit (something that would compromise Israel's security needs), the blockade cannot be lifted. So far, no one from the international community has proposed such mechanisms. Needless to say, given past experience, including that in Lebanon, monitors or lightly-armed forces modeled after UNIFIL would be inadequate.
 

alexa

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Hamas raids, closes NGO offices

This kind of situation is an example why one simply cannot lift the maritime blockade on the Gaza Strip. Unless robust mechanisms, including a strong enforcement component, are in place to prevent Hamas and its personnel from deriving benefit (something that would compromise Israel's security needs), the blockade cannot be lifted. So far, no one from the international community has proposed such mechanisms. Needless to say, given past experience, including that in Lebanon, monitors or lightly-armed forces modeled after UNIFIL would be inadequate.
No one is suggesting lifting the blockade without supervision. However the rest can be seen as a serious reason to lift the blockade and at the earliest create access to the rest of the West Bank so that Gaza people get a view of what life is like in different situations. So that they begin to see an alternative.
(I am off out now :) )
 

donsutherland1

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No one is suggesting lifting the blockade without supervision.
Alexa,

The problem is no one who is advocating (even demanding, in cases) that Israel lift the blockade is offering details as to the kind of mechanism that would be put in place to address Israel's security needs at least as effectively as the blockade does. Monitors and lightly-armed forces along the lines of UNIFIL won't suffice. Such approaches have invariably been attempted e.g., in Lebanon, and failed badly.
 

alexa

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Alexa,

The problem is no one who is advocating (even demanding, in cases) that Israel lift the blockade is offering details as to the kind of mechanism that would be put in place to address Israel's security needs at least as effectively as the blockade does. Monitors and lightly-armed forces along the lines of UNIFIL won't suffice. Such approaches have invariably been attempted e.g., in Lebanon, and failed badly.
I am sure that adequate security can be provided by Europe. As you know the soldiers of my own country have a great deal of experience of these type of situations. I understand that the EU is wanting Israel to make quite clear her security problems/worries/issues/requirements.

http://www.pij.org/pijpapers/gaza_pijpaper.pdf

There is absolutely no reason that the EU is not adequate to do this and without the tension that there currently is between Israel and Gaza.

I think it is desperately important to start getting Gaza people involved in 'normal' life again.
 

ferrugem

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I am sure that adequate security can be provided by Europe. As you know the soldiers of my own country have a great deal of experience of these type of situations. I understand that the EU is wanting Israel to make quite clear her security problems/worries/issues/requirements.

http://www.pij.org/pijpapers/gaza_pijpaper.pdf

There is absolutely no reason that the EU is not adequate to do this and without the tension that there currently is between Israel and Gaza.

I think it is desperately important to start getting Gaza people involved in 'normal' life again.
The main and only reason why the UN cant handle it.. takes place in southern lebanon, Hezbollah is still and even more powerfull then ever, aspecially now they've got the Scud missiles from Syrian.

Little facts about the inner "politics" of Hamas:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terror+Groups/Hamas_brutality_towards_political_opponents_Aug_2009

http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/shocking-testimonials-about-hamas-brutality-from-palestinians-who-were-brutalized-by-them/

this is hard to watch:
http://www.emetonlineblog.com/?p=378
 
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CrazyMcCool

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I am sure that adequate security can be provided by Europe. As you know the soldiers of my own country have a great deal of experience of these type of situations. I understand that the EU is wanting Israel to make quite clear her security problems/worries/issues/requirements.

http://www.pij.org/pijpapers/gaza_pijpaper.pdf

There is absolutely no reason that the EU is not adequate to do this and without the tension that there currently is between Israel and Gaza.

I think it is desperately important to start getting Gaza people involved in 'normal' life again.
Wait wasnt it the UK and France that decided not to help their allies when Hitler started to take them over one by one..Not that I am making a point..
I am just saying a logcial mindset, no one would want their kid to be shipped off to Gaza and to risk his/her life for Israel...Its not that they are anti Israel, its just logical..

They would want their kid to protect UK citizens ( aka their own citizens) other than some other nations'

Thats what I see is the problem with that idea..

Also the EU is like the UN, its big its loud and its phailing ^^
 

alexa

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Wait wasnt it the UK and France that decided not to help their allies when Hitler started to take them over one by one..Not that I am making a point..
I am just saying a logcial mindset, no one would want their kid to be shipped off to Gaza and to risk his/her life for Israel...Its not that they are anti Israel, its just logical..

They would want their kid to protect UK citizens ( aka their own citizens) other than some other nations'

Thats what I see is the problem with that idea..

Also the EU is like the UN, its big its loud and its phailing ^^
I would agree with you that if vast numbers of EU soldiers were being killed, public opinion would shift and want them brought home. However this is not anticipated. This is an opportunity to bring life back into Gaza and the more likely outcome is that it would be appreciated. If this was done alongside talks with Hamas for peace and at the earliest, connection with the West Bank we might see movement towards what is needed, a lasting peace in the area.
 
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CrazyMcCool

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You are aware that Hamas basicly killed and outcasted all opposing political parties from Gaza and thous parties are now in the West Bank, and they want Hamas gone, but they care for the Palastian people. My point being whilst Hamas is in control its not possible to have ties between Gaza and The West Bank.

How can you negitionate with someone that has it in their own Constitution that Israel must parish?

and yes many EU soldiers would die cause they would seem as oppressors of the west :roll:
 

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You are aware that Hamas basicly killed and outcasted all opposing political parties from Gaza and thous parties are now in the West Bank, and they want Hamas gone, but they care for the Palastian people. My point being whilst Hamas is in control its not possible to have ties between Gaza and The West Bank.
Yes I am aware though not properly studied. From the little I have looked it would be in error to blame only Hamas for this.

It is vital to be able to get some truce working between Politicians of both Gaza and the West Bank.

How can you negitionate with someone that has it in their own Constitution that Israel must parish?

and yes many EU soldiers would die cause they would seem as oppressors of the west :roll:
Hamas says that they will never accept Israel but they will live under the 1967 boundaries peacefully iwth Israel.

Hamas Leader: We'll Accept Israel Within 1967 Borders - by Rainer Rupp

There is more than enough room for talks if talk for peace were wanted.

P.S I am off out now.:)
 
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CrazyMcCool

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How can I not accept my neighbors right to exist but still treat him like an equal?

Its not rational. They must accept us as a state for anything to happen, otherwise they can just abuse their resources to cause nothing but harm to us ( this is talking if we get peace but they still deny us as a state)
 

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Alexa, you talking of wich you dont know, all political parties in palestinian control hate Hamas, the Fatah had a Civil war against them and lost, the Hamas militants literally butchered all of the opposings.
In the past they had some cooperation against Israel, but when the so called "elections" were taking place, and Hamas won they started to force their "beliefe" in everyone who opposes to them. That means all necessary methods are legal, from crushing people's legs to mass murder to bombard all non Hamas movement structures.
The borders of 1967 are a joke to our government, that means to give the palestinians the entire east Jerusalem section, lats say, that the Indians in america claiming the rights over half of New york, lats say for this example the northern part. The american government should give them that! because the americans conquared their land from the Indians. the same thing the palestinians.

photos of the beaten to almost death by the "activists" from a turkish site:

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=36575&p=1&rid=2
 
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ido_

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I am sure that adequate security can be provided by Europe. As you know the soldiers of my own country have a great deal of experience of these type of situations. I understand that the EU is wanting Israel to make quite clear her security problems/worries/issues/requirements.

http://www.pij.org/pijpapers/gaza_pijpaper.pdf

There is absolutely no reason that the EU is not adequate to do this and without the tension that there currently is between Israel and Gaza.

I think it is desperately important to start getting Gaza people involved in 'normal' life again.
Speaking from the left side of the Israeli political map, I do not trust Israeli security manners in the hand of the EU. History only tought us that we can only trust ourselves when it comes to our security. In 67 sinai was under UN supervision, Nasser just kicked them out. Southern Lebanon was under UN supervision for almost twenty years, rockets kept flying into Israel and UN soldiers even closed their eyes when Hezbollah kidnaped 3 soldiers. Today we have a "more powerfull" international force in Lebanon and still there have been several incidents of rockets being fired at our northern border from Lebanon and Hezbollah is still arming itself nonstop though there is an international obligation to Israel block all military equipment smuggling from Syria.
I'm sorry but the International gurentee means nothing to the common Israeli, you've made us trust only ourselves.
 
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