Gun shows -- are background checks required or not? [W:148] (1 Viewer)

[Luna Tick]

You hear a lot about closing the gun show loophole where a person can buy a gun at a gun show with no background check at all. However, I've met a guy who works at gun shows and claims that's not the case. He says Federal law does indeed require background checks at gun shows in all 50 states.

So what's the truth? Are background checks required at gun shows or aren't they? Are there some cases where they're required and other cases where they're not?

 

[Lutherf]

If you are a dealer then you need to do the NICS check and fill out the 4473 but a lot of people show up at gun shows to sell stuff they don't want any more or maybe to trade up. These are casual sales and don't require the same stuff.

See the answer to question #1 - http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html

 

[Jerry]

You hear a lot about closing the gun show loophole where a person can buy a gun at a gun show with no background check at all. However, I've met a guy who works at gun shows and claims that's not the case. He says Federal law does indeed require background checks at gun shows in all 50 states.

So what's the truth? Are background checks required at gun shows or aren't they? Are there some cases where they're required and other cases where they're not?

It does't matter if the gun is sold at a gun show or not. What matters is who sells the gun.

All licenced dealers have to run you through NICS even if you're at a gun show.

Very few private persons are even capable doing so even if they wanted to, because you have to be law enforcement or have a Federal Firearms Licenced to even access that system. It's not as simple as writing a law saying private persons have check your backround, private persons can't use the system.

 

[H. Lee White]

Actual dealers - those that hold an FFL - must always run a background check, regardless of venue.
Private parties are not required to do so.

 

[jamesrage]

You hear a lot about closing the gun show loophole where a person can buy a gun at a gun show with no background check at all. However, I've met a guy who works at gun shows and claims that's not the case. He says Federal law does indeed require background checks at gun shows in all 50 states.

So what's the truth? Are background checks required at gun shows or aren't they? Are there some cases where they're required and other cases where they're not?

The so called loop hole anti-2nd amendment politicians and other anti-2nd amendment nuts are talking about is the fact private individuals are not required to perform a back ground checks. Private individuals are not required to perform background checks regardless if they sell at a gun show, put an ad in the paper to sell their firearm or sell their firearm to a neighbor or relative. Licensed dealers as far as I know have to perform a back ground check regardless if it as a gun show, their shop or where ever. Gun shows have a mixture of private and licensed dealers.

 

[Luna Tick]

The so called loop hole anti-2nd amendment politicians and other anti-2nd amendment nuts are talking about is the fact private individuals are not required to perform a back ground checks. Private individuals are not required to perform background checks regardless if they sell at a gun show, put an ad in the paper to sell their firearm or sell their firearm to a neighbor or relative. Licensed dealers as far as I know have to perform a back ground check regardless if it as a gun show, their shop or where ever. Gun shows have a mixture of private and licensed dealers.

Thanks to everyone for the clarification. It seems like it would make sense to require private sellers to do a background check just like every dealer has to. At a gun show, they could set up a booth where the private seller and buyer could go to have someone run the check for them. If it's a private sale outside a gun show, they could go to their town's city hall and have them do the check. I'm all for 2nd Amendment rights, but I don't want al Quaida assholes or M13 gang members coming into the country and buying guns. The 2nd is for Americans, not for foreign enemies who illegally sneak into the country to do us harm.

 

[jamesrage]

Thanks to everyone for the clarification. It seems like it would make sense to require private sellers to do a background check just like every dealer has to. At a gun show, they could set up a booth where the private seller and buyer could go to have someone run the check for them. If it's a private sale outside a gun show, they could go to their town's city hall and have them do the check. I'm all for 2nd Amendment rights, but I don't want al Quaida assholes or M13 gang members coming into the country and buying guns. The 2nd is for Americans, not for foreign enemies who illegally sneak into the country to do us harm.

You do realize criminals are not going to do back ground checks? They are also not going to legally purchase their firearm.

 

[VanceMack]

Thanks to everyone for the clarification. It seems like it would make sense to require private sellers to do a background check just like every dealer has to. At a gun show, they could set up a booth where the private seller and buyer could go to have someone run the check for them. If it's a private sale outside a gun show, they could go to their town's city hall and have them do the check. I'm all for 2nd Amendment rights, but I don't want al Quaida assholes or M13 gang members coming into the country and buying guns. The 2nd is for Americans, not for foreign enemies who illegally sneak into the country to do us harm.

M-13 doesnt buy from gun shows...they get their guns from the federal government.

Personally, Id be fine with the option to do a quick background check. When I have sold firearms I always agree to meet the individual at the police station for the sale. I know many of the local and county cops...its a safe setting...and I figure if they are willing to go there, thats about as sure as I can be until it changes.

 

[joko104]

They really are cracking down in Florida just over the last year. It was easy to buy from MOST gun show dealers merely by asking "is the a dealer sale or a private cash sale?" At least half would answer "private sale if in the parking lot for cash." No receipt given. Perfectly legal. However, the fear of the BATF is growing. Also, they now require an ID and background check for long guns, which was not required last year.

 

[H. Lee White]

They really are cracking down in Florida just over the last year. It was easy to buy from MOST gun show dealers merely by asking "is the a dealer sale or a private cash sale?" At least half would answer "private sale if in the parking lot for cash." No receipt given. Perfectly legal.

Mmmm...
A gun owned by a gun store cannot be legally sold in such a manner - the dealer cannit simply "private sale" any such gun.

 

[jonny5]

Thanks to everyone for the clarification. It seems like it would make sense to require private sellers to do a background check just like every dealer has to. At a gun show, they could set up a booth where the private seller and buyer could go to have someone run the check for them. If it's a private sale outside a gun show, they could go to their town's city hall and have them do the check. I'm all for 2nd Amendment rights, but I don't want al Quaida assholes or M13 gang members coming into the country and buying guns. The 2nd is for Americans, not for foreign enemies who illegally sneak into the country to do us harm.

The second amendment is a restriction on govt, not on people. People have a right to bear arms, and trade their property, and dont have to ask the govt for permission to do so.

 

[Luna Tick]

The second amendment is a restriction on govt, not on people. People have a right to bear arms, and trade their property, and dont have to ask the govt for permission to do so.

Isn't the 2nd Amendment a protection for American citizens only? Don't you think a foreigner has no right to come to the US to buy a gun and then illegally smuggle it into his country?

 

[lpast]

You hear a lot about closing the gun show loophole where a person can buy a gun at a gun show with no background check at all. However, I've met a guy who works at gun shows and claims that's not the case. He says Federal law does indeed require background checks at gun shows in all 50 states.

So what's the truth? Are background checks required at gun shows or aren't they? Are there some cases where they're required and other cases where they're not?

The last gun show I was at...I purchased a handgun and traded one...I filled out federal forms and state forms...had to give my social and drivers license number...There was no waiting period...the dealer says if You trade a gun you can take one home...and I did.

 

[zstep18]

The second amendment is a restriction on govt, not on people. People have a right to bear arms, and trade their property, and dont have to ask the govt for permission to do so.

Yes, but there are limits to the 2nd Amendment just like there are limits to the freedom of speech. Although the First and Second Amendment are a restriction on the government, the government is what regulates the limits of these two amendments.

 

[Jerry]

Isn't the 2nd Amendment a protection for American citizens only? Don't you think a foreigner has no right to come to the US to buy a gun and then illegally smuggle it into his country?

Why would a foreigner do that when there are many provisions which allow non-US citizens to keep and carry a gun here?

 

[Luna Tick]

Why would a foreigner do that when there are many provisions which allow non-US citizens to keep and carry a gun here?

I didn't realize that was the case. Frankly, I find that a little scary. I don't want people coming to the US for the purpose of buying a gun.

 

[lpast]

Isn't the 2nd Amendment a protection for American citizens only? Don't you think a foreigner has no right to come to the US to buy a gun and then illegally smuggle it into his country?

You could do that in many countries...we cant write laws based on what someone visiting here from somewhere else is going to do...and you dont have to buy a gun legally to obtain one and smuggle it into your country

 

[Jerry]

I didn't realize that was the case. Frankly, I find that a little scary. I don't want people coming to the US for the purpose of buying a gun.

Generally the foreigner has to own land or operate a business based in the US in order to obtain a permit. I see nothing scary about business owners owning a gun to defend themselves, their employees or their customers.

It is also possible for a foreigner who is a legal resident of the US to obtain a gun permit, without the need to own land or operate a business. I see nothing scary about an otherwise normal person owning a gun to protect their home and family.

All local laws still apply. If their state requires a class, they have to take the class. If their state requires registration, they still have to register. If guns aren't allowed in certain arias, they can't bring guns into those arias. They are normal people you see every day who have been here for a while and will likely stay here for a while. At a point, when someone is conducting commerce on US soil, one must ask 'why not allow them to carry a gun'.

It would be infinity easier to simply buy an illegal gun within their home country, then to smuggle a gun out of the US themselves.

 

[jonny5]

Isn't the 2nd Amendment a protection for American citizens only? Don't you think a foreigner has no right to come to the US to buy a gun and then illegally smuggle it into his country?

No, I dont think the writers made that distinction. We had plenty of foreigners here in the 1800s.

 

[jonny5]

Yes, but there are limits to the 2nd Amendment just like there are limits to the freedom of speech. Although the First and Second Amendment are a restriction on the government, the government is what regulates the limits of these two amendments.

There is no such power in the constitution. If anything its the opposite. The govt is required to enforce those limitations on govt, and protect the right of the people. They should be making sure people can bear arms, not making sure they cant.

 

[zstep18]

There is no such power in the constitution. If anything its the opposite. The govt is required to enforce those limitations on govt, and protect the right of the people. They should be making sure people can bear arms, not making sure they cant.

But, there are some limits to the 2nd Amendment, just like there are some limits to the freedom of speech. Who is responsible for enforcing these limitations?

 

[jonny5]

But, there are some limits to the 2nd Amendment, just like there are some limits to the freedom of speech. Who is responsible for enforcing these limitations?

There are no limits to the 2nd amendment in the constitution of the kind we are talking about in this thread, namely citizens trading among themselves. Enforcement is the power of the executive branch, but defining any limitation to be enforced is the responsibility of the states where the fed doesnt have the power to regulate.

 

[haymarket]

QUESTION: thanks to those who explained who has to do background checks and who does not. Given that it is possible that firearms can be purchased by criminals taking advantage of the opportunities and purchasing from people who do NOT have to do the checks, why not have a system where nobody can sell a weapon to anyone but a licensed dealer who can then act as a middle man and resell it?

We have a system in place for the buying of alcoholic beverages where you cannot buy for anyone not licensed to manufacturer, distribute or sell it. Why can't we do the same thing for weapons removing the legal sales to get around the background checks?

Now I suspect somebody is going to say that it is their property and they can sell it to anybody they want to and they should not have to lose a portion of the sale through a middle man. Okay - I will concede that would happen. It might cost you a percentage. But it would close off this avenue where people are not getting the background checks and we as a nation would be gaining that in return.

 

[jamesrage]

But, there are some limits to the 2nd Amendment, just like there are some limits to the freedom of speech. Who is responsible for enforcing these limitations?

There are limits to the 2nd amendment.For example you can not shoot your firearm at 3AM for no reason,You can not go pointing your weapon at people in a threatening manner for no reason, you can not shoot or stab people just for the hell of it, no can you kill anyone without legal justification.

 

[Tigger]

So what's the truth? Are background checks required at gun shows or aren't they? Are there some cases where they're required and other cases where they're not?

The Truth is that the whole "gun show" discussion is a Red Herring. Nothing happens at gun shows that doesn't happen everywhere else in the country on a daily basis.

All FFL (Federal Firearms License) Dealers are REQUIRED to perform a NICS (National Instant Check System) check with the FBI prior to completing a firearm sale unless the sale is to another FFL holding Dealer. Currently, Private Sales from one non-dealer to another non-dealer DO NOT require a NICS check to be performed, as non-FFL Holders do not have access to the NICS system.

It is these person-to-person sales, which do at times occur at gun shows, but which also occur every day of the year in communities across the length and bredth of this country that people are up in arms about. Some states (MA included) do require you to file paperwork on an IN-STATE person-to-person sale, but no NICS check is required. However, in some places (like MA) private sales that cross state lines do still require dealer involvement.

So what this really comes down to is whether or not you're comfortable with legal gun owners selling firearms to other legal gun owners without the Government getting involved.