Growing spat between Germany and the US?

[Infinite Chaos]

First we had revelations through Edward Snowden that the NSA had tapped millions of communications in Germany and then this went as far as tapping Angela Merkel's phone from 2002. This week, the US treasury criticised Germany's economic model as one based too much on exporting and then last night, Germany responded describing the report findings as "incomprehensible.

Strangely - the US right now is the least likely to be an economic and moral authority to be lecturing Germany on her economy however there are salient points to be made on the effect on the eurozone and the Eu in general of Germany's economic strength.

Can't help but think the US would kill for a balance book like Germany's right now.

 

[Ben K.]

Having read the relevant section in the treasury report I don't see any "lecturing". It was about stimulating domestic demand to drive up the exports of other EU countries. Hardly something to get upset about and easily comprehensible.

 

[joG]

First we had revelations through Edward Snowden that the NSA had tapped millions of communications in Germany and then this went as far as tapping Angela Merkel's phone from 2002. This week, the US treasury criticised Germany's economic model as one based too much on exporting and then last night, Germany responded describing the report findings as "incomprehensible.

Strangely - the US right now is the least likely to be an economic and moral authority to be lecturing Germany on her economy however there are salient points to be made on the effect on the eurozone and the Eu in general of Germany's economic strength.

Can't help but think the US would kill for a balance book like Germany's right now.

That is the way the Germans like to see it. But the facts are quite a bit different.

-The German economic model is quite a problem. The only place in the world anyone would believe otherwise is in Germany. The criticism was perfectly correct and has been raised by most EU members, the OECD and many of its members, the World Bank and by Ms Lagard as Minister of France and later as President of the IMF.
-The Germans complain about spying although they do it themselves. The complain that the Americans spied on their population, though they allowed it and used the material (probably illegally) by their own agencies. The Germans complain all the time but do nothing to make the world safer, but live from the security made and paid for by others. They have even done numerous things that were severely harmful. That is quite intolerable and pressure must be brought against them to make them change.

Don't you think so?

 

[joG]

Having read the relevant section in the treasury report I don't see any "lecturing". It was about stimulating domestic demand to drive up the exports of other EU countries. Hardly something to get upset about and easily comprehensible.

In essence Germany is a free rider with a free rider'e reflexes to bite, when anyone mentions it. This is true in its export driven economy that was appropriate to a poor developing country after the war but is like a 100 pound Doberman that refuses to get off your lap. this was alright to a point, when exchange rates were flexible. Now with the Euro it has created huge imbalances and misery in the PIIGS. It lives off of the global trading system but refuses to pay the price of keeping it safe for trade and has in many cases hindered peaceful methods of persuasion by sanctions by trading with the rogue countries. The list is long.

 

[PeteEU]

First we had revelations through Edward Snowden that the NSA had tapped millions of communications in Germany and then this went as far as tapping Angela Merkel's phone from 2002. This week, the US treasury criticised Germany's economic model as one based too much on exporting and then last night, Germany responded describing the report findings as "incomprehensible.

Strangely - the US right now is the least likely to be an economic and moral authority to be lecturing Germany on her economy however there are salient points to be made on the effect on the eurozone and the Eu in general of Germany's economic strength.

Can't help but think the US would kill for a balance book like Germany's right now.

It is many things rolled into one.

1) The US is embarrassed that it got caught with the whole spying thing. The spying game is simple.. dont get caught and once you do.. suffer the consequences. That is what the US is doing now, and like any child it lashes out at the biggest critics.

2) The US is a bit pissed that the European countries dont own up to their own participation in the spying.. for example, we heard that 30+ million Spanish calls were spied on.. what most people dont know outside Spain, is that it was the CNI (Spanish secret service) that handed over the calls. I understand the US on this and can sympathize some what, but the damage is done and it is near impossible to point fingers at others when you are the biggest bully in the crowd.

3) The US is jealous over how good the economy is going in Germany and feels threatened by it. Here you have a country with UHC, social programs and so on, that is running a balanced budget and has big economic growth. Could Germany's model and economic theory spread to the rest of the Europe, then Europe could easily dominate the world economy yet again.. and that is a threat. The US reacts always to such threats by attacking them.. either economically, politically and in some cases militarily.

But mostly I think it is all a bargaining chip in the EU vs USA trade talks and other discussions. European governments are finally getting some balls and standing up to US bullying and wants far more fair and equal agreements, on both future and past agreements.. they want to renegotiate most agreements made with the US under Bush for example. The EU really wants to change the deal that hands over private information of EU citizens to the US .. on demand.

 

[joG]

First we had revelations through Edward Snowden that the NSA had tapped millions of communications in Germany and then this went as far as tapping Angela Merkel's phone from 2002. This week, the US treasury criticised Germany's economic model as one based too much on exporting and then last night, Germany responded describing the report findings as "incomprehensible.

Strangely - the US right now is the least likely to be an economic and moral authority to be lecturing Germany on her economy however there are salient points to be made on the effect on the eurozone and the Eu in general of Germany's economic strength.

Can't help but think the US would kill for a balance book like Germany's right now.

An interesting article appears in the present edition of The Economist, that puts a little perspective into the argument. Espionage and America: Rules for spies | The Economist

 

[German guy]

-The Germans complain about spying although they do it themselves. The complain that the Americans spied on their population, though they allowed it and used the material (probably illegally) by their own agencies. The Germans complain all the time but do nothing to make the world safer, but live from the security made and paid for by others. They have even done numerous things that were severely harmful. That is quite intolerable and pressure must be brought against them to make them change.

You do nothing but spew anti-German hatred. And all this without the slightest substance, as you have documented well here that you neither understand the basics of the German political system, nor of the role our constitution plays. All you did was advancing vague populisms from the conspiracy-theory fringe about an alleged illegitimacy of the GG.

Oh, and you don't even know the first thing about the German media landscape either, but instead talk some weird drivel about alleged "brainwashing" of the German population by an allegedly dominant public media. Without any connection to reality.

Answer me just this question: How would the US react, politics, media and population, if the situation was reversed and it had been revealed the German government had tapped Bush's and Obama's phones since 2002? Kudos to you, if you are capable of honestly answering this question.

 

[joG]

It is many things rolled into one.

1) The US is embarrassed that it got caught with the whole spying thing. The spying game is simple.. dont get caught and once you do.. suffer the consequences. That is what the US is doing now, and like any child it lashes out at the biggest critics.

2) The US is a bit pissed that the European countries dont own up to their own participation in the spying.. for example, we heard that 30+ million Spanish calls were spied on.. what most people dont know outside Spain, is that it was the CNI (Spanish secret service) that handed over the calls. I understand the US on this and can sympathize some what, but the damage is done and it is near impossible to point fingers at others when you are the biggest bully in the crowd.

3) The US is jealous over how good the economy is going in Germany and feels threatened by it. Here you have a country with UHC, social programs and so on, that is running a balanced budget and has big economic growth. Could Germany's model and economic theory spread to the rest of the Europe, then Europe could easily dominate the world economy yet again.. and that is a threat. The US reacts always to such threats by attacking them.. either economically, politically and in some cases militarily.

But mostly I think it is all a bargaining chip in the EU vs USA trade talks and other discussions. European governments are finally getting some balls and standing up to US bullying and wants far more fair and equal agreements, on both future and past agreements.. they want to renegotiate most agreements made with the US under Bush for example. The EU really wants to change the deal that hands over private information of EU citizens to the US .. on demand.

On the first two points you are right, I should think. I am listening to Stöbele right now. Whatever it is, it is breathtaking.

On 3. I think you are possibly somewhat caught in a misconception. First the goal. The world is struggling right now with the size of the two export nations business models and cannot support it much longer. Further growth in these two economies is probably only possible, if they switch to more internal demand and consumption. This is all the more visible, when one looks at the (im)balances inside the EU and especially Euroland. They are untenable but represent a so sizable portion of German exports that it will prove a considerable challenge to redirect them. If the imbalances are to disappear then the production has to go somewhere else. And it is quite unclear who will be able to sustain the necessary trade deficit. Most of it will probably have to be consumed at home.

But that is not the immediate sore. What has been troubling since the beginning is that Germany has done very little to invigorate the world economy relying on exports to siphon off the spending that other countries have done to stabilize their economies. In effect the German behavior was very positive for it but reduced the effectiveness of the measures taken by others. This has been criticized by many Europeans in different ways, by the IMF, the WB and the OECD. Alone the windfall profits derived by Germany from refinancing at the low rates is huge. This is also causing imbalances in Germany itself. But that is a different matter.

 

[Canell]

Answer me just this question: How would the US react, politics, media and population, if the situation was reversed and it had been revealed the German government had tapped Bush's and Obama's phones since 2002? Kudos to you, if you are capable of honestly answering this question.

Bomb Germany! :lol: Just kidding, GG. :2razz:

Allies shouldn't spy on each other.

 

[Van Basten]

It will all blow over.

 

[German guy]

On the first two points you are right, I should think. I am listening to Stöbele right now. Whatever it is, it is breathtaking.

On 3. I think you are possibly somewhat caught in a misconception. First the goal. The world is struggling right now with the size of the two export nations business models and cannot support it much longer. Further growth in these two economies is probably only possible, if they switch to more internal demand and consumption. This is all the more visible, when one looks at the (im)balances inside the EU and especially Euroland. They are untenable but represent a so sizable portion of German exports that it will prove a considerable challenge to redirect them. If the imbalances are to disappear then the production has to go somewhere else. And it is quite unclear who will be able to sustain the necessary trade deficit. Most of it will probably have to be consumed at home.

But that is not the immediate sore. What has been troubling since the beginning is that Germany has done very little to invigorate the world economy relying on exports to siphon off the spending that other countries have done to stabilize their economies. In effect the German behavior was very positive for it but reduced the effectiveness of the measures taken by others. This has been criticized by many Europeans in different ways, by the IMF, the WB and the OECD. Alone the windfall profits derived by Germany from refinancing at the low rates is huge. This is also causing imbalances in Germany itself. But that is a different matter.

Okay, this posting was very good.

Now if you please answered the question I asked you a couple of times, when you attacked Germany for being concerned about American espionage ("anti-Americanism"): How do you think would the US government, media and population react, if the situation was reversed?

 

[joG]

You do nothing but spew anti-German hatred. And all this without the slightest substance, as you have documented well here that you neither understand the basics of the German political system, nor of the role our constitution plays. All you did was advancing vague populisms from the conspiracy-theory fringe about an alleged illegitimacy of the GG.

Oh, and you don't even know the first thing about the German media landscape either, but instead talk some weird drivel about alleged "brainwashing" of the German population by an allegedly dominant public media. Without any connection to reality.

Answer me just this question: How would the US react, politics, media and population, if the situation was reversed and it had been revealed the German government had tapped Bush's and Obama's phones since 2002? Kudos to you, if you are capable of honestly answering this question.

Oh. I do not hate the Germans. I do know the system they live in and by quite well. Much better probably than Germans do, as I am not hindered by the social and cultural paradigms that membership in a community usually means. Some of my best friends are Germans.

I realize that normal individuals react with double bind on being shown where their paradigm errs. Group members usually act that way.

And as to taping Obama's phone? Don't you think people try? As a matter of fact, it was just mentioned on BBC by one of the experts and everyone (even the German) seemed to agree, that Germany had wiretapped one of the Baltic States' Premiers. I guess everyone does what he is capable of doing. And I mean, Germany seems to have organized industrial espionage using corruption openly against the Swiss without even bothering to create a legal framework for the "Beamtes" to do so.
But all joking aside it would be terribly negligent of a government not to do everything possible to find out, what the heads of state of other countries are thinking and doing. If they do not, they are doing their jobs and should lose them.

 

[German guy]

Oh. I do not hate the Germans. I do know the system they live in and by quite well. Much better probably than Germans do, as I am not hindered by the social and cultural paradigms that membership in a community usually means. Some of my best friends are Germans.

I realize that normal individuals react with double bind on being shown where their paradigm errs. Group members usually act that way.

What I consider arrogant about this statement, which, generally speaking is absolutely true, is that you seem to fail to realize that the same applies to you. Assuming you're American, you look at the German system with your American glasses on. And just like Germans can't escape their "social and cultural paradigms", Americans can't do that either -- including you.

It's arrogant when you imply that your American view is somehow more "objective" or true than particular German viewpoints.

This arrogance especially showed when you accused Germans of being brainwashed by a public media, which was not just an arrogant implication that Germans can't think for themselves, but also that Americans are allegedly immune to this kind of influence by their media. And it was even factually wrong when you compared apples to oranges, by pointing to American quality newspapers when American tv was brought up -- you should know that tv is still "Leitmedium" in both countries, that American tv is in a much worse shape than German tv, and that it's not even true German media is dominated by public outlets (only ca. 50% of tv and radio are public, but near 100% of the print and internet outlets are private in Germany too, so are ca. 50% of tv and radio).

I don't take offense when you point to shortcomings of the German media landscape or German perception -- but I do take offense when you do that from a standpoint that assumed in a very unreflected manner that American views are somehow above and beyond the same kinds of bias. We can learn a lot from each other, if we're aware on both sides that there is more than just one side to every story, right?

And as to taping Obama's phone? Don't you think people try? As a matter of fact, it was just mentioned on BBC by one of the experts and everyone (even the German) seemed to agree, that Germany had wiretapped one of the Baltic States' Premiers. I guess everyone does what he is capable of doing. And I mean, Germany seems to have organized industrial espionage using corruption openly against the Swiss without even bothering to create a legal framework for the "Beamtes" to do so.
But all joking aside it would be terribly negligent of a government not to do everything possible to find out, what the heads of state of other countries are thinking and doing. If they do not, they are doing their

Yet you seemed annoyed by the German reaction on these revelations and blamed the German media and "anti-Americanism" for this German reaction. Regardless of the good points you make here, please think for a moment and answer this question: What would the American reaction be the situation was reversed?

Would the American people protest in masses against their government, if it reacted harshly against Germany, because "we are doing it too" and are "hypocrites"?

 

[joG]

Okay, this posting was very good.

Now if you please answered the question I asked you a couple of times, when you attacked Germany for being concerned about American espionage ("anti-Americanism"): How do you think would the US government, media and population react, if the situation was reversed?

As I said on other occasion, I think everybody expects countries to spy on each other. I think the Americans would be quite angry with their agencies if it turned out that the President's phone had been tapped. But why be angry with someone who is doing what he is supposed to be doing. Do I get angry with an opponent in chess because he tricked me?
There would be the normal protest like we see quite often with China. Usually it would be ignored in the case of European spies I should think.

 

[German guy]

As I said on other occasion, I think everybody expects countries to spy on each other. I think the Americans would be quite angry with their agencies if it turned out that the President's phone had been tapped. But why be angry with someone who is doing what he is supposed to be doing. Do I get angry with an opponent in chess because he tricked me?
There would be the normal protest like we see quite often with China. Usually it would be ignored in the case of European spies I should think.

So you really think the American media, politicians and people would just ignore it if Merkel had managed to tap Bush's and Obama's phones?

When the American media and people can't even respect and ignore it when a close ally respectfully chooses to stay out of a war they consider unnecessary, like in 2003, but instead start campaigns against "cheese eating surrender monkeys", rename french fries, pour away French wine and so on -- and actively try to divide the EU into pieces? Are we really talking about the same America, the same American government, media and population here?

You really think FOX News, pundits like Glenn Beck, O'Reilly and what their names are, would simply "ignore" it?

 

[joG]

What I consider arrogant about this statement, which, generally speaking is absolutely true, ....

This arrogance especially showed when you accused Germans of being brainwashed by a public media, which was not just an arrogant implication that Germans ....
I don't take offense when you point to shortcomings of the German media landscape or German perception -- but I do take offense when you do that from a standpoint that assumed in a very unreflected manner that American views are somehow above and beyond the same kinds of bias. We can learn a lot from each other, if we're aware on both sides that there is more than just one side to every story, right?

Yet you seemed annoyed by the German reaction on these revelations and blamed the German media and "anti-Americanism" for this German reaction. Regardless of the good points you make here, please think for a moment and answer this question: What would the American reaction be the situation was reversed?

Would the American people protest in masses against their government, if it reacted harshly against Germany, because "we are doing it too" and are "hypocrites"?

I was only commenting on the quality of the main body of views in German public media, their focused selection and the effect on opinion. If you continuously report incorrectly and it is the only information a group gets the group believes. Don't get me wrong. This is a major feat on a national scale and is fabulous social engineering that it took generations to develop. But it has a dark downside.

 

[joG]

So you really think the American media, politicians and people would just ignore it if Merkel had managed to tap Bush's and Obama's phones?

If you check, you will find, I did not say that.

 

[German guy]

If you check, you will find, I did not say that.

Okay. So why do you hold the German reaction to a higher yardstick than America's, then?

Why are you surprised Germans react pissed, when the German reaction is even very tame compared to what could be expected if the situation was reversed?

 

[German guy]

I was only commenting on the quality of the main body of views in German public media, their focused selection and the effect on opinion. If you continuously report incorrectly and it is the only information a group gets the group believes. Don't get me wrong. This is a major feat on a national scale and is fabulous social engineering that it took generations to develop. But it has a dark downside.

Needless to say, I don't agree with your statements. But of course I could be wrong.

Can you substantiate your claim that German public media reports "incorrectly"? What views do you think are overrepresented? Why do you think does this play such a big role, considering that ca. 50% of the German tv and radio and near 100% of the print and internet outlets are private?

And please explain: Who is behind this manipulation in your opinion? Is it a deliberate conspiracy by the government? Is it an involuntary side-effect by the fact a certain group of people with a relatively homogenous socio-economic background get jobs in the public media? Please name "Ross und Reiter".

My impression is that you just happen to see some reports on German public tv, and since there are other implicit values in the focus than what you're used in America, you jump to the conclusion the German public media is somehow "brainwashing" the public -- while in reality, they just reflect pretty well the general attitudes and moral values that are common in the German population -- so the influence of public opinion on the media is much bigger than vice versa.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Having read the relevant section in the treasury report I don't see any "lecturing". It was about stimulating domestic demand to drive up the exports of other EU countries. Hardly something to get upset about and easily comprehensible.

indeed. Such reasoning stands on it's own merits, not the character and traits of the individual or organization making it

Fallacy: Ad Hominem

 

[Higgins86]

Fed up of this " well the Germansd were probably doing it to us". Compare the budget of the NSA and then German agencies like the BND and then try and make that argument.

 

[lizzie]

Strangely - the US right now is the least likely to be an economic and moral authority to be lecturing Germany on her economy however there are salient points to be made on the effect on the eurozone and the Eu in general of Germany's economic strength.

Can't help but think the US would kill for a balance book like Germany's right now.

I tend to agree. I love my country, but we have fools at the helm, and absolutely no moral authority on economic matters. When the time comes that we tank beyond our ability to print more money, we won't have a Germany to shore us up.

 

[Penderyn]

'Spat' it is not. People are getting more and more disgusted.

 

[KevinKohler]

If the German government had been found to be tapping our presidents phone, public outcry and backlash would be extreme. The word "nazi" would get bandied about by all the concervative talking heads, and the liberals wouldn't have anything nice to say either. Many would most certainly try to start boycotts on German made goods. The hawks would call for trade sanctions. Some crazies (rush) would even take it up a notch, and suggest military action.



True or untrue, folks?

 

[CanadaJohn]

First we had revelations through Edward Snowden that the NSA had tapped millions of communications in Germany and then this went as far as tapping Angela Merkel's phone from 2002. This week, the US treasury criticised Germany's economic model as one based too much on exporting and then last night, Germany responded describing the report findings as "incomprehensible.

Strangely - the US right now is the least likely to be an economic and moral authority to be lecturing Germany on her economy however there are salient points to be made on the effect on the eurozone and the Eu in general of Germany's economic strength.

Can't help but think the US would kill for a balance book like Germany's right now.

Many Americans may not know, but let's also not forget that the EU and Canada have signed a free trade deal that will be ratified by the two sides within the next two years, thus opening up the EU, by way of Canada, to freer trade with the US. The revelations about the NSA will in all likelihood dampen any desire in the EU to negotiate a similar free trade deal with the Obama administration, putting it off until after the 2016 elections at the earliest. That, along with all the other disincentives the Obama administration has placed on the US economy, may only deepen the malaise in US recovery and growth.