Government Subsidised Heroin Usage Facility

[Mustachio]

If they "WANT" to get clean they do...the people that make their living off of addictions...counselors, researchers etc etc keep all the bs going so the cash flow never stops rollin....they feed their vested interest nicely...always have

I'm going to need a little help understanding this. Addiction researchers are somehow involved in keeping addicts active users? And counselors don't want people to get clean? Almost every drug counselor I've met has been an addict or had addicts in their family and they go into the field of drug counseling because they want to help others. One of the counselors I know was a prominent lawyer who gave up his profession to help people. I have no idea where your information is coming from, or how your experiences could have led you to this bizarre conclusion.

 

[lpast]

I'm going to need a little help understanding this. Addiction researchers are somehow involved in keeping addicts active users? And counselors don't want people to get clean? Almost every drug counselor I've met has been an addict or had addicts in their family and they go into the field of drug counseling because they want to help others. One of the counselors I know was a prominent lawyer who gave up his profession to help people. I have no idea where your information is coming from, or how your experiences could have led you to this bizarre conclusion.

Nope...researchers counselors promote any kind of treatment and research no matter what the harm or good...to keep the grant/tax money rolling...

 

[Pinkie]

Nope...researchers counselors promote any kind of treatment and research no matter what the harm or good...to keep the grant/tax money rolling...

Lpast, no doubt some researchers and counselors do so, and some do it in bad faith. That doesn't invalidate the good intentions of the entire profession.

You seem to want addicts to have no assistance at all. Are you hoping for more addicts?

 

[lpast]

Lpast, no doubt some researchers and counselors do so, and some do it in bad faith. That doesn't invalidate the good intentions of the entire profession.

You seem to want addicts to have no assistance at all. Are you hoping for more addicts?

No I do not want to end all help...I just want to help those that WANT and SEEK help...and not the enabling ive seen go on for years that costs us dearly for no results

 

[Djoop]

Subsidised methadone works, it reduces crime. There's some things to consider though. No one wants to live next to a distribution centre, and addicts tend to add heroin to their (methadone) diet. It does little to combat heroin addiction. We've had numerous programs to reduce dependancy, they all failed.

 

[Mustachio]

Nope...researchers counselors promote any kind of treatment and research no matter what the harm or good...to keep the grant/tax money rolling...

So you think chemical dependency counselors went into their field to make money? Were you joking about that? And they promote "any kind of treatment?" There are two possible treatments for individuals afflicted with opiate addiction: maintenance (methadone, buprenorphine, or in the case of those who require pain management, anything from hydrocodone and oxycontin to methadone to fentanyl or dilaudid) and 12 step groups. The much more lucrative option for medical professionals would be maintenance, but the vast majority of rehab facilities are categorically opposed to maintenance. You said counselors promote any kind of treatment, can you mention the "kinds of treatment" you're talking about?

And I just don't get the thing about researchers looking for grant money. How are they involved in your alleged scam? I don't even see how the findings of researchers could be manipulated in a manner that would give them increased funding. What are these researchers falsely reporting and why does it lead to increased funding? And I've never heard of researchers promoting a method of treating addiction. Dare I say you are terribly uninformed.

Finally, if it was about money, why would the largest organization in the world for addicts (AA) function for free? What you seem to be saying is that the mountain of evidence showing that addiction is a disease is the result of money hungry counselors drooling over their annual salary of $28,000. People have been afflicted with addiction in every culture for thousands of years and you're telling me that it's as easy as you "want to quit." That's totally absurd and shows that you have no understanding of the disease. I think first and foremost your error is thinking that the hard part is getting sober. That's the easy part.

 

[lpast]

So you think chemical dependency counselors went into their field to make money? Were you joking about that? And they promote "any kind of treatment?" There are two possible treatments for individuals afflicted with opiate addiction: maintenance (methadone, buprenorphine, or in the case of those who require pain management, anything from hydrocodone and oxycontin to methadone to fentanyl or dilaudid) and 12 step groups. The much more lucrative option for medical professionals would be maintenance, but the vast majority of rehab facilities are categorically opposed to maintenance. You said counselors promote any kind of treatment, can you mention the "kinds of treatment" you're talking about?



And I just don't get the thing about researchers looking for grant money. How are they involved in your alleged scam? I don't even see how the findings of researchers could be manipulated in a manner that would give them increased funding. What are these researchers falsely reporting and why does it lead to increased funding? And I've never heard of researchers promoting a method of treating addiction. Dare I say you are terribly uninformed.

Finally, if it was about money, why would the largest organization in the world for addicts (AA) function for free? What you seem to be saying is that the mountain of evidence showing that addiction is a disease is the result of money hungry counselors drooling over their annual salary of $28,000. People have been afflicted with addiction in every culture for thousands of years and you're telling me that it's as easy as you "want to quit." That's totally absurd and shows that you have no understanding of the disease. I think first and foremost your error is thinking that the hard part is getting sober. That's the easy part.

Dont try to paint my opinion with some broad brush ok...im talking city run clinics and yes methadone clinics included....and any and all clinics that run on tax and grant money...they have vested interests in keeping it going and skewing results and statistics...is it everywhere...of course not, nothing is everywhere and includes everyone...I stand firmly behind all the treatment in the world is wasted money unless the individual wants to change...Im all for helping those that seek help...I am totally against treatment fishing expeditions because thats what most of them are

 

[Surtr]

So, you folks that are outraged by this, how exactly do you suggest detoxing addicts? Cold turkey? You do know how dangerous/difficult/ineffective that is, right? Maybe if you weren't so focused on feeling superior to people with a problem, and instead think about how you can help them, real progress could be made. Deriding someone and insulting them, telling them they're too weak or that overcoming an addiction is simply a matter of willpower, which you're so quick to declare that some people just don't have... that doesn't help. It's even an inherent contradiction. If it's all a matter of choice, and some people simply do not posses the innate fortitude to defeat an addiction... then it's not their choice. No matter how you slice it, passing judgement and refusing to help still isn't helping.

Medical treatment and therapy. No cops, no jail, but they need to get off that ****. Clearing out a space for addicts and telling them to have at it with free needles only enables further heroin abuse.

 

[Ryanm]

Medical treatment and therapy. No cops, no jail, but they need to get off that ****. Clearing out a space for addicts and telling them to have at it with free needles only enables further heroin abuse.

I've heard a lot of people say the only way to get them off drugs is to let them hit bottom so hard that something happens to them, and they realize they have to change.

 

[Kushinator]

Do you think we would put up with government spending here in the U.S. to facilitate drug usage? It seems like it has its benefits, but it is sort of a new concept.

We do this in the U.S., but only for pharmaceutical derivatives of opiates such as methadone or suboxone.

 

[Surtr]

I've heard a lot of people say the only way to get them off drugs is to let them hit bottom so hard that something happens to them, and they realize they have to change.

I don't know about that. For some people that's what it takes, but everyone is different. I just got fed up with dealing with the ****, and the people I was around all the time, and bailed, but I was on cocaine and speed, so didn't have as hard a time as I would if I did heroin.

 

[digsbe]

I support opening up recovery facilities, not places for people to use illegal drugs and then go for help if they ever want it. If anything they should have cops at this place to arrest all of them and send them to rehab programs.

 

[samsmart]

This is a place in Vancouver in Canada that provides a place for Heroin addicts to shoot up as well as treatment when someone voluntarily decides they want to quit.



Do you think we would put up with government spending here in the U.S. to facilitate drug usage? It seems like it has its benefits, but it is sort of a new concept.

I think we should just make it legal, allow heroin addicts to get menial jobs, and that way they can pay for the drug themselves without needing a government subsidy.

 

[Surtr]

Subsidised methadone works, it reduces crime. There's some things to consider though. No one wants to live next to a distribution centre, and addicts tend to add heroin to their (methadone) diet. It does little to combat heroin addiction. We've had numerous programs to reduce dependancy, they all failed.

Methadone doesn't work. It's just a replacement for heroin, not a way off of heroin. Heroin addicts are sick, they need medical treatment, not some ass in a white coat giving them another powerful opiate. It may be different now, I don't know, but substance abuse programs are generally stupid, and not based in reality. Especially the government ones. All they do is assume you're in a gang, make you talk about your "feelings" in a group circle-jerk, and then see you back next week... or they revoke your probation/parole/refer you to something a lot worse. The general feel of it is that they don't care if you get clean or not, just don't **** up their numbers or they'll **** up your life. I'm sorry, but that's not how people get better.

 

[Djoop]

Methadone doesn't work. It's just a replacement for heroin, not a way off of heroin. Heroin addicts are sick, they need medical treatment, not some ass in a white coat giving them another powerful opiate. It may be different now, I don't know, but substance abuse programs are generally stupid, and not based in reality. Especially the government ones. All they do is assume you're in a gang, make you talk about your "feelings" in a group circle-jerk, and then see you back next week... or they revoke your probation/parole/refer you to something a lot worse. The general feel of it is that they don't care if you get clean or not, just don't **** up their numbers or they'll **** up your life. I'm sorry, but that's not how people get better.

You're right, they don't get better. It only works to reduce crime. It's extremely difficult to kick heroin. Most who try, fall back eventually. From experience I know the programs for cocaine and meth addicts are a lot more succesful. To me, those people who think they should simply be forced to clean up.., well they're a bit naive to say the least.

 

[Surtr]

You're right, they don't get better. It only works to reduce crime. It's extremely difficult to kick heroin. Most who try, fall back eventually. From experience I know the programs for cocaine and meth addicts are a lot more succesful.

That's because stimulants aren't as hard to kick. It doesn't take a great deal of effort to just not do blow, speed, or meth. There are effective treatments for heroin addiction that doesn't involve giving them 'heroin lite'.

To me, those people who think they should simply be forced to clean up.., well they're a bit naive to say the least.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Heroin addicts are sick, they need treatment or they'll die. Cops shouldn't be any part of that equation, unless an actual crime is committed, but they do need help, and they need someone to tell them that they need help, and make them get treatment because they won't do it on their own. Even if they say **** it and go back to the needle afterwards, they make the connections, and gain the tools they need when they do want to quit.

 

[Djoop]

I don't believe there are effective treatments for heroin addiction. Now, maybe that's simply me being unware, can you show me any? Furthermore, I've met heroin addicts who managed their addiction (only use enough to prevent getting sick) to the point they could even maintain a job.

 

[Surtr]

I don't believe there are effective treatments for heroin addiction. Now, maybe that's simply me being unware, can you show me any? Furthermore, I've met heroin addicts who managed their addiction (only use enough to prevent getting sick) to the point they could even maintain a job.

specklebang has gone into more detail a couple pages back than I can give on this. The biggest one is new medications. I also know heroin addicts. Some are either recovered, or recovering, others didn't bother with treatment. The ones who didn't get treatment have disappeared and I assume that they died.

 

[iliveonramen]

This is a place in Vancouver in Canada that provides a place for Heroin addicts to shoot up as well as treatment when someone voluntarily decides they want to quit.



Do you think we would put up with government spending here in the U.S. to facilitate drug usage? It seems like it has its benefits, but it is sort of a new concept.

It depends on your goal. If you're goal is to help junkies get off usage then yes...it seems to be working well there. I believe they do it in the Netherlands as well.

 

[Ryanm]

To me it seems like a really tough thing to try to solve. There are so many variables. One thing that seems to be a common factor is the desire to quit. If someone is not incarcerated or physically separated from the drug beyond their control, unless they have the desire to stop, they won't. The reason people do make arguments that drugs should be handled in the legal arena is that many hard drug addicts will steal and lie to get the drug. Therefore, what many people consider to be a "victimless crime" because the addict is only sticking the needle into his or her own arm, is actually seen as an underlying cause for other crimes.

The problem with that mindset is that some "holier than thou" types of people want to think that this is the case for all illegal drugs. Obviously, weed isn't a strong enough addiction to make someone steal to get it. If someone steals for weed... it's because their already a ****ing thief, plain and simple. Heroin may take someone who never steals and turn them into a lying, heartless thief whos thought process cannot escape the "get money for drugs, then use drugs, then get more money for drugs" cycle.

 

[samsmart]

I don't believe there are effective treatments for heroin addiction. Now, maybe that's simply me being unware, can you show me any? Furthermore, I've met heroin addicts who managed their addiction (only use enough to prevent getting sick) to the point they could even maintain a job.

I heard a report from NPR's Planet Money that there is an effective medical treatment for heroin.

However, government cross regulations - the Department of Health and Human Services sponsored the private pharmaceutical industry to research and manufacture this treatment, but the Drug Enforcement Agency is preventing it's proliferation because they are afraid that the treatment itself may be used as a method for substance abuse - is making it difficult to procure.

I suggest listening to the podcast episode for the full story.

Episode 391: The Anti-Addiction Pill That's Big Business For Drug Dealers : Planet Money : NPR

 

[Neomalthusian]

I don't believe there are effective treatments for heroin addiction. Now, maybe that's simply me being unware, can you show me any?

Vivitrol (once-monthly intramuscular injectable Naltrexone) is an opiate agonist that's showing promise. Requires controlled detoxification before the first dose. You don't want that stuff with junk still in your system, as it would cause extreme withdrawal symptoms immediately. If we subsidize anything related to opioid addiction, it should be something like this. There are already studies showing Vivitrol leads to huge decreases in health care service utilization, so much so that it more than pays for itself if subsidized (and it's not cheap either). Now, I have a pretty tough-love attitude about drug addiction, but it's kind of tough to argue with statistics that show that. I don't have time to go dig for links right now, but feel free to research it if you're curious.

Furthermore, I've met heroin addicts who managed their addiction (only use enough to prevent getting sick) to the point they could even maintain a job.

The rare exception is not the rule.