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God did not create the universe, says Hawking

You can't prove that fairies do not exist, and there are people who believe that fairies do exist.
Same can be said for a deity and people who believe in such deity's existence.
People can believe whatever they want, even if its flat out wrong.

In a debate, I challenge people to JUSTIFY their beliefs. Faith cannot be justified, only asserted.


Point is it's really a matter of opinion, and Hawking has stated his opinion.
Hawking intermixes his personal beliefs with the findings of science. I think that much is obvious. Apparently to others, such intermixing is not obvious.

E.G., the theory of gravitation is disputable. People can decide whether belief in the theory that mass is related to gravitation, is justified or not. Most people do in this age. Likewise Hawking believes that M-theory is true. M-theory is a new theory and not supported by evidence and research anywhere close to the same magnitude as the theory of gravitation. People can decide for themselves whether or not belief in M-theory is justified. Apparently, Hawking believes belief in the theory is justified.
 
Yes, I'm aware of what everyone else thinks. I was asking you, Scourage to describe another dimension. Wiki couldn't do it, and neither can you. That's why I asked it.

:confused:

So I'm not allowed to reference material to give an accurate description? what?


So I'm being tested now? This is your answer?
No, that was an example. My answer was the following:
The point is that many things in this world are complex. Sometimes unbelievably complex. Luckily complexity has no bearing on truth. Simply because you do not understand how to calculate the above stated equation does not make its result any less true or any less accurate to reality. The same is true for physics.


I couldn't calculate it precisely, and neither could you or anyone else
actually I can having taking courses in Newtonian physics as part of my engineering undergraduate studies.

however, I could get close, close enough is generally accepted as being on the right track.
Really? Considering that such a question is "final exam material" I highly doubt you could get an answer without first learning what was taught in much of the course.

By the way, what makes you think I don't understand these things?
That not the point. I know you can understand the concept. The problem is you can't perform the calculations which can be EXTREMELY complex and tedious. Even for something as simple as what I asked. By your logic, we shouldn't believe Newtonian physics is true because its "so incredibly complex". As you said:

The problem I see in conventional physics today, is this moving in the direction of things unbelievably complex, and improvable.
...
Someone said the math behind M-theory was "elegant". No it's not, it's incredibly complex, and only a handful of people on the planet even understand it, so don't give me that line.




scourge said:
Hicup said:
Essentially, and the point I was making earlier, is that, the science of theoretical physics is moving in directions that paint it into the same corner that they paint the "believer" into.
What corner is that exactly?
Where the believer reside..
What is the "corner that th believer resides" exactly? Can you elaborate instead of being vague?




Hehe, yes I know, however there are currently teams at the LHC that have a way to "test" String Theory to the extent that, if the experiment delivers a positive result, String Theory will not have been proved, but it will continue as an accepted theory that requires more research.
Like all scientific theories. They are never "proven", only "supported".

However, if the results are negative, then ST will have to revise some of its tenents.
or be completely discarded.


Although, "crude", at least layman can comprehend what an extra dimension might be, and why we can't perceive it.
Then why did you ask me what a dimension above?

I agree my analogy wasn't an example of a extra dimension, in as much as it was an example of how things can exist in the physical, and not be comprehendable to the observer; in this case the poor little fishy's.. :)
Please explain how your analogy is true to REALITY? Do you believe that because you can imagine such a scenario that such a scenario is true?
 
And perhaps Z is the endpoint. Or perhaps Z leads to B and B to C and C is the endpoint. Or perhaps it goes on infinitely or perhaps not. Perhaps "infinite" and "causation" becomes a meaningless questions (such as in "times" before the big bang when there was not time).

Your logic appears to be the following (if not then please correct it):

1) science has discovered answers to previous questions for our origins.
2) questions thus far answered by science create more questions.
3) science has discovered another answer for a previous question and along with it more questions.
4) therefore, there MUST be an infinite regress of scientific questions and answers.

My logic is the following.

1) Science has discovered that the universe was created by the big bang.
2) We don't know what caused the actual origins of everything
3) Hawking has a theory about how the big bang could have been caused
4) Even if true, that theory only moves us along by a tiny bit toward the question of our actual origin, contrary to the way that most people are interpreting this story.


Actually it does move the ball. It moves the ball from X to Y. No, its not the golden "theory of everything" (at least from my understanding M-theory is not such a theory).

If the goal is just to figure out what happened before the big bang, then sure, this helps. If the goal is to figure out what happened at the beginning, then there's nothing to indicate we're much further along that path.

Did these attempts to convince you occur on a debate forum or in everyday life?

In real life. Online, there are plenty of people that are eager to convince you of their god, but I don't see that as much in person.

I disagree with you. In science, those who claim God must prove God, which is why I believe that cartoon fits. And I posted that cartoon in response to another poster saying that God exists and nobody can disprove it. I see this frequently among the religious. Again, that is not the way that the scientific method works. Now, if the claim that God exists is made on faith, that I can buy. "I believe in God because of my faith" is honest. "I believe in God because you can't prove otherwise" is the kind of statement made by those who would make good carnival hucksters.

In my experience, there's a big difference between agnostics and atheists in terms of how they approach the issue.
 
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Having had an N.D.E. in the form of an O.B.E. back in 1984 and I'm still here after 5 heart Attacks I know there is something on the other side or at least the human spirit does not leave with the death of the body.

Call it God or Mother Nature the case can be made that at some point there had to be some thought given to the seemingly miraculous order in the Universe. Coincident doesn't seem to fit the matrix.

You don't have to call it religion but if you live by the words attributed to the Man known as Jesus you will lead a better life and remember tha one thing you find in as many as 21 of the worlds more main stream beliefs is "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you," or words to that effect.
 
Well lots of people read the Bible and interpret it in MANY differing and sometimes conflicting ways. Until you present your interpretation I cannot evaluate whether your interpretation conforms to science (the study of nature).

Gonna be brief....

Perhaps someday science will develop technology that can accurately measure and perhaps the English language will some day have words that are adequate to express how ****ing little I care over whether someone believes in God or not.

If you do not believe in God, fine. If you do, fine. I never thought it necessary to build myself up by tearing someone else down. Religion and science happily co-exist in my mind. As I vaguely remember, it was a whole **** load of scientific equipment that saved my ass from dying 10 years ago, so science gets a big :applaud from me. I also remember my priest in the ER saying prayers over me. Big :clap: too. I know that both helped, that's for ****ing sure.
 
My logic is the following.

1) Science has discovered that the universe was created by the big bang.
2) We don't know what caused the actual origins of everything
3) Hawking has a theory about how the big bang could have been caused
4) Even if true, that theory only moves us along by a tiny bit toward the question of our actual origin, contrary to the way that most people are interpreting this story.
OK. Thank you for the clarification. Its refreshing to actually have someone present their position clearly and concisely rather than resorting to vague and ambiguous analogies and examples,.

I've got no problem with the above argument. I do have a problem with your claim about "turtles all the way down", which you didn't appear to address.

If the goal is just to figure out what happened before the big bang, then sure, this helps.
I agree.

If the goal is to figure out what happened at the beginning, then there's nothing to indicate we're much further along that path.

Because Hawking didn't present a "theory of everything" then its safe to assume its "turtles all the way down"? That there never will be an explanation or there will always be more questions?

I don't know what there is to say. I'm sorry that Hawking didn't provide a "theory of everything"?


In my experience, there's a big difference between agnostics and atheists in terms of how they approach the issue.

There is no major distinction between agnostics and atheists. Both have a worldview which disbelieves in Gods.

You either believe a God exists or you don't. If you "don't know" then you still don't believe (disbelieve). But that doesn't mean you absolutely believe gods does not exist.

Obviously you can define words however you like and people disagree. But I've found this is the most straightforward labeling I've come across.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...-do-people-believe-god-15.html#post1058766524
 
How do you know there's no such thing as spontaneous creation? And if you use this "argument" that since there can be no "spontaneous creation" then *something* must have created things, then what created that *something* that created everything else? Did "god" come from spontaneous creation? You're using the unlikelihood of spontaneous creation to justify a belief in a being that had to have come into existence via the very thing you say can't happen.

Since you like using this argument, let me give you one. Prove to me that spontaneous combustion DOES exist and I might try to listen to your arguments. and btw, atheism is an ABSENCE of religion, not a religion. I do believe we all understand that.
 
Having had an N.D.E. in the form of an O.B.E. back in 1984 and I'm still here after 5 heart Attacks I know there is something on the other side or at least the human spirit does not leave with the death of the body.
I'm curious to know what you did to verify that you were actually outside your body rather than simply inside your own mind?

Call it God or Mother Nature the case can be made that at some point there had to be some thought given to the seemingly miraculous order in the Universe.
The argument from design has been dead for quite a long time despite the attempt to resuscitate life into its corpse.

Here is a fairly good link that has a variety of criticisms of the argument that you probably won;t be exposed to in church: Argument from design - Iron Chariots Wiki

Coincident doesn't seem to fit the matrix.
Is the "design" of snowflakes coincidence? Is each "designed" snowflake made by God?

How do you differentiate between what is "intelligently designed" by God and what isn't?


You don't have to call it religion but if you live by the words attributed to the Man known as Jesus you will lead a better life and remember tha one thing you find in as many as 21 of the worlds more main stream beliefs is "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you," or words to that effect.
The golden rule has been in existence far before Jesus uttered those words.
 
scourge99, do you know who first designed the Empire State Building?
 
The thing with NDE's is in the name. They are NEAR, not actual, death. OBE's can be created in the lab, they are symptomatic of oxygen deprivation. They are also culturally defined.
 
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OK. Thank you for the clarification. Its refreshing to actually have someone present their position clearly and concisely rather than resorting to vague and ambiguous analogies and examples,.

I've got no problem with the above argument. I do have a problem with your claim about "turtles all the way down", which you didn't appear to address.

I agree.

Because Hawking didn't present a "theory of everything" then its safe to assume its "turtles all the way down"? That there never will be an explanation or there will always be more questions?

My point in referencing the turtle anecdote is not to argue that there will never be an answer or that there is an infinite sequence of questions, but that given our perspective, we have no idea whether this has measurably moved us along. Because we can't see past this next step, we could be 2 "turtles" away, 400 "turtles" away, or an infinite number of "turtles" away from the answer to our actual origins.

I don't know what there is to say. I'm sorry that Hawking didn't provide a "theory of everything"?

I don't expect him to. Again, my main objection is not to what Hawking said, but to the way that people have interpreted his theory (e.g. the headline of the article).
 
Gonna be brief....

Perhaps someday science will develop technology that can accurately measure and perhaps the English language will some day have words that are adequate to express how ****ing little I care over whether someone believes in God or not.

I agree that one shouldn't care what others personally believe.

I do, however, care to challenge claims and proclamations made by people on an OPEN DEBATE FORUM.

Perhaps you shouldn't post in a debate forum if you take offense to reasoned and intelligent criticism of your claims.

If you do not believe in God, fine. If you do, fine.
If one doesn't wish to have their religious pronouncements and preachings challenged, they should not present them on an Internet debate forum.

Weak arguments are rightfully challenged regardless of their source.


But I never thought it necessary to build myself up by tearing someone else down.
What you condemn as "tearing someone else down" is challenge to unsupported theories being presented as though they were true.


Religion and science happily co-exist in my mind. As I vaguely remember, it was a whole **** load of scientific equipment that saved my ass from dying 10 years ago, so science gets a big :applaud from me. I also remember my priest in the ER saying prayers over me. Big :clap: too. I know that both helped, that's for ****ing sure.
They have done experiments to test the efficacy of intercessory prayer. All data indicates that prayer is ineffectual and may in fact be harmful.

The latest study, released Thursday (March 30), was the most extensive. It involved 1,802 coronary artery bypass graft surgery patients from six hospitals who were divided into three groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after learning they might or might not be prayed for by others; 597 did not receive prayer after being told they might or might not receive it; 601 received intercessory prayer after learning they would receive it.

Investigators found that complications occurred in 52 percent of the first group, 51 percent of the second group and 59 percent in the third group.


He said it is possible that patients' knowledge that they were the subject of intercessory prayer "might have induced a form of performance anxiety or made them feel doubtful about their outcome."
HMS Press Release:
Major Study Shows Intercessory Prayer Has No Major Effect on Recovery- Beliefnet.com

You are free to believe whatever you want, even if it is wrong.
 
My point in referencing the turtle anecdote is not to argue that there will never be an answer or that there is an infinite sequence of questions, but that given our perspective, we have no idea whether this has measurably moved us along. Because we can't see past this next step, we could be 2 "turtles" away, 400 "turtles" away, or an infinite number of "turtles" away from the answer to our actual origins.
I misunderstood your position. I am in full agreement with what you write above.

We just don't know how far we are... we'll just have to try and find out.

I don't expect him to. Again, my main objection is not to what Hawking said, but to the way that people have interpreted his theory (e.g. the headline of the article).
This is one reason I often ignore or take with little trust the reports by the media. The medias priority is to make money, not report truth.

I often try to confirm stories by finding first hand sources, impartial sources, independent accounts. E.G., the original scientific paper or getting the words "straight from the camels mouth".
 
scourge99, do you know who first designed the Empire State Building?
Not off the top of my head, no.

According to wiki which cites a variety of sources:
Empire State Building - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Design and construction
A worker bolts beams during construction; the Chrysler Building can be seen in the background.

The Empire State Building was designed by William F. Lamb from the architectural firm Shreve, Lamb and Harmon, which produced the building drawings in just two weeks, using its earlier designs for the Reynolds Building in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, and the Carew Tower in Cincinnati, Ohio (designed by the architectural firm W.W. Ahlschlager & Associates) as a basis.[citation needed] Every year the staff of the Empire State Building sends a Father's Day card to the staff at the Reynolds Building in Winston-Salem to pay homage to its role as predecessor to the Empire State Building.[10][11] The building was designed from the top down.[12] The general contractors were The Starrett Brothers and Eken, and the project was financed primarily by John J. Raskob and Pierre S. du Pont. The construction company was chaired by Alfred E. Smith, a former Governor of New York and James Farley's General Builders Supply Corporation supplied the building materials.[13] John W. Bowser was project construction superintendent.[14][15][16]
 
If you look up, do you see sky or turtle taint? there's your answer. :2razz:
I see an expanding universe.....

deductive reasoning tells me it came from a single source and the farther away from that source, the weaker gravity becomes.
 
There is no evidence for fairies therefore fairies (or the Christian God) exist?


We don't know everything there is to know in the universe therefore fairies (or the Christian God) exist?

We are the stuff stars are made of.

Star dust and moon beams, raindrops and bucky balls. LOL
 
Gonna be brief....

Perhaps someday science will develop technology that can accurately measure and perhaps the English language will some day have words that are adequate to express how ****ing little I care over whether someone believes in God or not.

If you do not believe in God, fine. If you do, fine. I never thought it necessary to build myself up by tearing someone else down. Religion and science happily co-exist in my mind. As I vaguely remember, it was a whole **** load of scientific equipment that saved my ass from dying 10 years ago, so science gets a big :applaud from me. I also remember my priest in the ER saying prayers over me. Big :clap: too. I know that both helped, that's for ****ing sure.

OK, I can agree with that. Science is science, and faith is faith, and the 2 are incompatible. But faith is a good thing, and as much as I do talk about religion not being based in science, I will be the first to tell you that a higher power of some sort does exist, as evidenced by the fact that there are some things that science cannot explain, and IMHO, will never be able to explain.
 
There are some things that science can't explain yet, but one day......

"There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority, [and] science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win because it works." S. Hawking.
 
You haven't the slightest theological education if you think that the Gospels were all written by their respective titles.
You haven't the slightest knowledge of my education, formal or otherise. Kindly take your petty ad hominem and shove it up your ass sideways.
 
Perhaps you shouldn't post in a debate forum if you take offense to reasoned and intelligent criticism of your claims.

No offense taken and never will be because Christians don't have blind faith. It is faith based on the fact that what is verifiable, has been verified. And on that basis, we can take the rest on faith. If you can prove that Christ wasn't crucified and didn't rise from the dead, then I will publicly renounce Christianity as a farce and a false religion.

Science has not disproven anything in the Bible. In fact, there have been numerous examples where archeologists said the Bible was wrong historically, i.e. No Pontius Pilate, No Sodom or Gomorrah. Then they found the cornerstones bearing the name of Pilate and confirmed that he was Procurator of Judea during the time of Christ. They found the dead cities submerged in the Dead Sea with scorch marks on the stones.
 
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You haven't the slightest theological education if you think that the Gospels were all written by their respective titles.
You haven't the slightest knowledge of my education, formal or otherise. Kindly take your petty ad hominem and shove it up your ass sideways.

You don't have to take my word for it. Go ask any priest or pastor who has attended a major seminary.
 
No offense taken and never will be because Christians don't have blind faith.
Then defend your claim. Provide epistemological justification for faith. Are you willing and able to do so?

It is faith based on the fact that what is verifiable, has been verified.
What exactly is verifiable, has been verified?

And on that basis, we can take the rest on faith.

Will your accept the claims of other religions and their holy-book tales if they have similar support?

If you can prove that Christ wasn't crucified and didn't rise from the dead, then I will publicly renounce Christianity as a farce and a false religion.

Ric, I've already dispelled this silly argument that "you cant prove God doesn't exist".
Care to make a rebuttal?

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...e-universe-says-hawking-8.html#post1058963196
"It is not uncommon to hear statements like, "You can't prove God doesn't exist," from apologists when they are challenged to support the claim that God exists. Such statements are an attempt to shift the burden of proof, a kind of logical fallacy.

Statements like this — which is a special case of the more general claim, "You can't prove a negative" — are based on the premise that belief in God is justified until sufficient evidence is presented to refute such existence. While this response may be considered sound under a world view which accepts the premise, this is simply a form of compartmentalization. If we were to apply that premise to all claims, we'd be unable to develop any useful picture of reality, since every claim would then have to be accepted as true (until it is disproved — a burden which is especially difficult when dealing with supernatural claims).

To put it more bluntly, no sane human being would seriously claim that because we have not disproved the existence of leprechauns or unicorns, they must therefore exist (or must be assumed to exist).

More tellingly, though, apologists typically only apply this premise to questions that address their particular religion — and nothing else. The same Christian, for example, who argues, "You can't prove God doesn't exist," would almost certainly reject such an attempt to shift the burden of proof if it was attempted by, say, a Hindu: "You can't prove Vishnu doesn't exist!" This compartmentalization is a form of special pleading.

A somewhat famous counter-argument was posed by Bertrand Russell when he said the following:

"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.""


Science has not disproven anything in the Bible.
Its not the job of scientists to prove or disprove the Bible.

Scientists study nature, the natural world and find theories to explain what is observed. The study of nature quite incontrovertibly tells us that:
1) dead bodies do not rise from the grave three days later
2) water does not magically turn to wine.
3) people are not healed by magic touches.
4) people cannot walk on water.

Are you telling me that the above events are rational conclusions to draw from the study of nature? What evidence or reason do you have to support such claims other than opinion, conjecture, hear-say, holy-book tales, and imagination?


In fact, there have been numerous examples where archeologists said the Bible was wrong historically, i.e. No Pontius Pilate, No Sodom or Gomorrah. Then they found the cornerstones bearing the name of Pilate and confirmed that he was Procurator of Judea during the time of Christ. They found the dead cities submerged in the Dead Sea with scorch marks on the stones.

1) do you have any scholarly sources for the things you claim?
2) How does this support the existence of your God?

I often find that when theists try to spell out their argument rather than making vague and ambiguous claims like you do, they quickly find their reasoning is invalid and flawed. So spell it out for us ric.

1) If Pontius Pilate existed how does the support Jesus miracles?
2) If Sodom and Gomorrah existed does that mean your favored God destroyed the city and Job's wife was turned into a pillar of salt?
3) Have you ever read the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Iliad, or Gone with the Wind?
 
I will be the first to tell you that a higher power of some sort does exist, as evidenced by the fact that there are some things that science cannot explain


Your argument (please, correct me where I'm wrong):
1) there are currently things that we may not ever understand by studying nature.
2) therefore a higher power exists?

:confused:

and IMHO, will never be able to explain.
How exactly did you arrive at this conclusion?
 
No offense taken and never will be because Christians don't have blind faith. It is faith based on the fact that what is verifiable, has been verified. And on that basis, we can take the rest on faith. If you can prove that Christ wasn't crucified and didn't rise from the dead, then I will publicly renounce Christianity as a farce and a false religion.
Don't you first have to prove that God exists? Have you ever seen God or heard his voice?

Science has not disproven anything in the Bible. In fact, there have been numerous examples where archeologists said the Bible was wrong historically, i.e. No Pontius Pilate, No Sodom or Gomorrah. Then they found the cornerstones bearing the name of Pilate and confirmed that he was Procurator of Judea during the time of Christ. They found the dead cities submerged in the Dead Sea with scorch marks on the stones.

Oi, the Monkey Trials. Do you really believe the world was created in six days? If Adam and Eve were the first humans and had two sons, Cain and Abel, then where did Cain and Abel's wives come from? I don't know if one would call it science per se or just plain logical reasoning but the Bibles literal account of the creation of the earth and Adam and Eve have been disproven. It's difficult for me to believe that anyone, especially in this modern age of science and technology, would take Genesis literally. In fact, I don't think anything in the Bible was meant to be taken literally and that's why it was written in parables.
 
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