Germany makes the worlds best cars!

[PeteEU]

Depends who you listen to. He's very anti-gay, anti-American car, anti-socialism etc etc. He is however, very respected as a Car journalist.

Well yes and no. He is a right winger that is for sure hehe, but he has driven a Rolls Royce into a swimming pool , a clear rebellion against the "establishment".. and great gag.

You do need to watch a few episodes of Top Gear. He's about as anti-American as you can get. And as for American cars - none of the journalists like them beyond the ZR1 and the Ford GT (and that was only Clarkson) They like the 60's muscle cars but nothing else made since then beyond those I've mentioned.

Not true. Ford often get a great review as does some Opel/Vauxhall cars. Both are American.

What he hates are cars made by Americans in America and on this front he has quite a lot of factual basis to run on. The quality of GM, and Chrysler cars over the last 2 decades has not exactly been up to the quality of European or Japanese cars.

I remember him reviewing a Corvette a few years ago. As he said then, its image was unrivalled, but the quality of the car was rubbish. And he was right, since the freaking car was burning basically after he tested it. He called it a plastic car and he was right.

As for being anti-American.. maybe, but the jabs he takes at America are often based in fact.. like the "would like cheeessee with that" comment

Hard to justify claiming "Amero-phile" for someone who's trashed every US car beyond 2 notable exceptions to the rubbish the Americans have failed to sell successfully over here.

He has not. Ford Mondeo and Cosworth, and other Ford models made for the European market have gotten high marks. As has some Vauxhaul/Opel cars.

As I stated, American models for the American market.. yes.. the rest, not really.

 

[Andalublue]

He has not. Ford Mondeo and Cosworth, and other Ford models made for the European market have gotten high marks. As has some Vauxhaul/Opel cars.

You can add the Dodge Viper to your list. Just watched him driving it on YT.

The key to Clarkson is that he's only interested in speed, luxury and quality. Economy, safety, value-for-money and environmentally friendly concerns means nothing to him, or his Mini-Me Hammond. If it doesn't make them go, "Weeeeeee" or "Grrrrrrrrr" then they make puerile jokes about it. That's not to say TG isn't an excellent piece of entertainment, I just wouldn't take its opinions too seriously.

Having said that...he loves my current favourite little minx, the Fiat 500 Abarth...
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpAFi9nIJVQ"]YouTube- Top Gear Fiat 500 Abarth SS[/nomedia]

 

[PeteEU]

You can add the Dodge Viper to your list. Just watched him driving it on YT.

The key to Clarkson is that he's only interested in speed, luxury and quality. Economy, safety, value-for-money and environmentally friendly concerns means nothing to him, or his Mini-Me Hammond. If it doesn't make them go, "Weeeeeee" or "Grrrrrrrrr" then they make puerile jokes about it. That's not to say TG isn't an excellent piece of entertainment, I just wouldn't take its opinions too seriously.

Having said that...he loves my current favourite little minx, the Fiat 500 Abarth...
YouTube- Top Gear Fiat 500 Abarth SS

Yea, but even the Dodge Viper I believe he did not like the quality but the speed and "aura" he loved.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Interesting lap times. You probably don't get Top Gear in the Americas (due to the presenters hating most Auto American) but the ZR1 only came in 19th on the Top Gear test track. The ordinary C6 came in 66th around the lap.

Top Gear Test track

Top Gear is shown on discovery channel at times

A few thing regarding the test nature

It is considered to be an equaliser for cars since, according to Richard Hammond,[1] both 0-60 miles per hour (−96.6 km/h) times and top speed are totally meaningless.

snip

Lap times do not offer complete comparisons between the cars, mainly because wet or otherwise poor weather conditions (see time deductions below) can negatively affect lap times.

snip

1:20.4 - Chevrolet Corvette C6 ZR1 (wet)

The ZR1 was tested in wet conditions which of course would reduce lap times dramatically. In dry conditions I would expect a 1 second drop in lap times at least. Secondly most of the cars that beat it were/are either are speciality cars (Ariel Atom) or far more expensive then the Vette.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- Not true. Ford often get a great review as does some Opel/Vauxhall cars. Both are American.

What he hates are cars made by Americans in America and on this front he has quite a lot of factual basis to run on --

That is pretty much what I meant, American built cars designed for the American market don't go down well at all either on Top Gear or with the European market. The european cars built by Ford and Opel tend to be designed in european design studios (I still have many friends working in those and other EU studios).

-- The ZR1 was tested in wet conditions which of course would reduce lap times dramatically. In dry conditions I would expect a 1 second drop in lap times at least. Secondly most of the cars that beat it were/are either are speciality cars (Ariel Atom) or far more expensive then the Vette.

I agree that mostly but the timed difference between the ZR1 and similar other cars on the Top Gear test track is very different from that achieved on the American track. That's the difference I'm interested in - why do american test drivers achieve such different times in similarly priced cars when a european track produces more similar times?
As for drivers - there was a long standing joke that the Stig (the driver) was in fact Michael Schumacher - regardless of whether it was always him there was always a top class driver pushing the car to it's limits.

 

[Andalublue]

That is pretty much what I meant, American built cars designed for the American market don't go down well at all either on Top Gear or with the European market. The european cars built by Ford and Opel tend to be designed in european design studios (I still have many friends working in those and other EU studios).



I agree that mostly but the timed difference between the ZR1 and similar other cars on the Top Gear test track is very different from that achieved on the American track. That's the difference I'm interested in - why do american test drivers achieve such different times in similarly priced cars when a european track produces more similar times?
As for drivers - there was a long standing joke that the Stig (the driver) was in fact Michael Schumacher - regardless of whether it was always him there was always a top class driver pushing the car to it's limits.

I was told (by ex-colleagues still at the BBC) that for at least two series, The Stig was Johnny Herbert, ex-Benetton/Sauber/Stewart GP driver. I believe Schumacher did do a couple of tests a couple of years ago.

On the ZR1, the main complaint was that the suspension was the same as on the standard-issue Corvettes and that was a system at least 10 years old. It was that that made the handling so poor.

 

[USA_1]

On the ZR1, the main complaint was that the suspension was the same as on the standard-issue Corvettes and that was a system at least 10 years old. It was that that made the handling so poor.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agnBbQkHv_U&feature=related"]YouTube- Corvette ZR1[/nomedia]

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mEz2kJPbec&feature=related"]YouTube- ZR1 Put to the Test: 2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 Full Test[/nomedia]

 

[Andalublue]

YouTube- Corvette ZR1

YouTube- ZR1 Put to the Test: 2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 Full Test

Kind of backs up previous complaints. Did you see the amount of understeer on the track? The Edmunds test praises it more for not allowing it's tail to drift on corners. Any car with that much understeer would never drift. It also agrees that finish and build quality are poor. It IS certainly very fast. No one's questioned that. It's a terrific car, no doubt, but World-beater it ain't.

One more point, those two YT clips seem like manufacturer advertorials. The second is a little more objective than the first but clearly they both quote manufacturer perfromance stats; both clips quoted 3.3 secs 0-60 and 97 ft 60-0 braking distance. I refuse to believe the cars performed identically on two different tests. Why didn't they quote the stats their tests showed rather than the ones GM's PR department gave them?

 

[USA_1]

Kind of backs up previous complaints. Did you see the amount of understeer on the track? The Edmunds test praises it more for not allowing it's tail to drift on corners. Any car with that much understeer would never drift. It also agrees that finish and build quality are poor. It IS certainly very fast. No one's questioned that. It's a terrific car, no doubt, but World-beater it ain't.

One more point, those two YT clips seem like manufacturer advertorials. The second is a little more objective than the first but clearly they both quote manufacturer perfromance stats; both clips quoted 3.3 secs 0-60 and 97 ft 60-0 braking distance. I refuse to believe the cars performed identically on two different tests. Why didn't they quote the stats their tests showed rather than the ones GM's PR department gave them?

There is nothing that can compete with it in it's price range and will beat many cars that cost over twice as much, on the track or strip. That's value.

 

[Andalublue]

There is nothing that can compete with it in it's price range and will beat many cars that cost over twice as much, on the track or strip. That's value.

Call me old fashioned, but isn't the place where it counts...the road, with all those inconvenient things called corners?

Then, of course, you have to look at other cars in its 'price bracket'. Another reason it doesn't sell in Europe is because it is double the price here that it is in the US. €179,000 = $223,000. I don't know whether that's to do with US subsidies for domestic sales or EU import taxes. I suspect the former as US and EU prices for cars such as the Nissan GTR are pretty similar.

Put it at that price and it really doesn't compete so well with Ferraris, Lambos and Porsches.

 

[USA_1]

Call me old fashioned, but isn't the place where it counts...the road, with all those inconvenient things called corners?

Then, of course, you have to look at other cars in its 'price bracket'. Another reason it doesn't sell in Europe is because it is double the price here that it is in the US. €179,000 = $223,000. I don't know whether that's to do with US subsidies for domestic sales or EU import taxes. I suspect the former as US and EU prices for cars such as the Nissan GTR are pretty similar.

Put it at that price and it really doesn't compete so well with Ferraris, Lambos and Porsches.

As the video showed the ZR1 had some of the best, track times, G and slalom numbers ever recorded. Only the 911 beat it in one turning category. It does corner.

 

[Andalublue]

As the video showed the ZR1 had some of the best, track times, G and slalom numbers ever recorded. Only the 911 beat it in one turning category. It does corner.

Must correct myself. It is €149,000 here. But that is still €20,000 more than a Viper SRT10, AND JUST €12K less than a Porsche 911 Turbo.

 

[USA_1]

Must correct myself. It is €149,000 here. But that is still €20,000 more than a Viper SRT10, AND JUST €12K less than a Porsche 911 Turbo.

The 911 is better in most categories but the ZR1 would still be a blast to drive.

 

[Andalublue]

The 911 is better in most categories but the ZR1 would still be a blast to drive.

I'll second that! I'd love to have a blast in one.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Call me old fashioned, but isn't the place where it counts...the road, with all those inconvenient things called corners?

Then, of course, you have to look at other cars in its 'price bracket'. Another reason it doesn't sell in Europe is because it is double the price here that it is in the US. €179,000 = $223,000. I don't know whether that's to do with US subsidies for domestic sales or EU import taxes. I suspect the former as US and EU prices for cars such as the Nissan GTR are pretty similar.

Put it at that price and it really doesn't compete so well with Ferraris, Lambos and Porsches.

The US government has not been very active in protecting its domestic car companies since the mid 80s' when the Reagan admin put an import duty on light trucks


So I expect GM for some reason has placed the export sales price for the Vette at a quite high premium ( most likely due to low expected sales in any
case.

No US car (import or domestic is subsidized for sale ( cash for clunkers excluded as it was a temp programs)

I think that GM is not too concerned about exporting them to Europe, and as such

 

[Andalublue]

The US government has not been very active in protecting its domestic car companies since the mid 80s' when the Reagan admin put an import duty on light trucks


So I expect GM for some reason has placed the export sales price for the Vette at a quite high premium ( most likely due to low expected sales in any
case.

No US car (import or domestic is subsidized for sale ( cash for clunkers excluded as it was a temp programs)

I think that GM is not too concerned about exporting them to Europe, and as such

Yup, that makes sense. So how come they are prepared to hugely subsidise Boeing, but not the motor industry?

 

[PeteEU]

The US government has not been very active in protecting its domestic car companies since the mid 80s' when the Reagan admin put an import duty on light trucks


So I expect GM for some reason has placed the export sales price for the Vette at a quite high premium ( most likely due to low expected sales in any
case.

No US car (import or domestic is subsidized for sale ( cash for clunkers excluded as it was a temp programs)

I think that GM is not too concerned about exporting them to Europe, and as such

Well not putting mandatory emission and fuel efficiencies standards in place for 30 years helped the US car industry big time. It made the popular SUV possible in many ways.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Well not putting mandatory emission and fuel efficiencies standards in place for 30 years helped the US car industry big time. It made the popular SUV possible in many ways.

Actually it was emmision and fuel standards in the US that made SUV's popular

Cars and trucks have generally been treated differently in the US for emmission and fuel standards. SUV's in the US have been treated as trucks and such subject to lower fuel economy standards then cars.

It was the strange way US regulations are set up

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Yup, that makes sense. So how come they are prepared to hugely subsidise Boeing, but not the motor industry?

Boeing is military while the auto industry sold most of their military units

 

[Andalublue]

Boeing is military while the auto industry sold most of their military units

Really? Boeing make miltary aircraft? I believe that the subsidies that have been the point of controversy between the US and the EU, Boeing vs. Airbus were for production of civil aircraft.

What military aircraft do Boeing make?

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Really? Boeing make miltary aircraft? I believe that the subsidies that have been the point of controversy between the US and the EU, Boeing vs. Airbus were for production of civil aircraft.

What military aircraft do Boeing make?

Boeing: Defense, Space & Security Home

More then just aircraft but the highlights are

F 15
F18
F 22

C17

V22 Osprey in partnership with Bell

The EU's arguement regarding the subsidies was that Boeing was indirectly subsidized through the military expenditures. Meaning the Airbus subsidizies were just to make up for the ones Boeing has been receiving for decades.

 

[Andalublue]

Boeing: Defense, Space & Security Home

More then just aircraft but the highlights are

F 15
F18
F 22

C17

V22 Osprey in partnership with Bell

The EU's arguement regarding the subsidies was that Boeing was indirectly subsidized through the military expenditures. Meaning the Airbus subsidizies were just to make up for the ones Boeing has been receiving for decades.

Thanks for the link. That was interesting.

On the subsidy issue, I believe that the difference is about the nature of the subsidies. The EU subsidizes Airbus with repayable loans at preferential rates. The US subsidies are not repayable. I think that is the gist of the EU's objections. I'm not sure of the US government's or Boeing's position, or the basis of its action against Airbus. Perhaps you do.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Thanks for the link. That was interesting.

On the subsidy issue, I believe that the difference is about the nature of the subsidies. The EU subsidizes Airbus with repayable loans at preferential rates. The US subsidies are not repayable. I think that is the gist of the EU's objections. I'm not sure of the US government's or Boeing's position, or the basis of its action against Airbus. Perhaps you do.

As Boeing does not get loans from the government at prefential rates as does Airbus the US government said this was a subsidy for Airbus which under WTO rules is not allowed.

Boeing on the other hand gets plenty of US government defense contracts, and they are always quite profitable. The EU or EADS argued that the defense contracts were an indirect subsidy, which I agree as they are not exactly set up for competitive pricing generally. But as that is impossible to prove EADS and the EU lost the WTO case.

 

[PeteEU]

As Boeing does not get loans from the government at prefential rates as does Airbus the US government said this was a subsidy for Airbus which under WTO rules is not allowed.

Boeing on the other hand gets plenty of US government defense contracts, and they are always quite profitable. The EU or EADS argued that the defense contracts were an indirect subsidy, which I agree as they are not exactly set up for competitive pricing generally. But as that is impossible to prove EADS and the EU lost the WTO case.

If I were EADS, I would do exactly the same thing. Build something insignificant for the military, charge a huge overprice and that way get the funding

 

[Andalublue]

If I were EADS, I would do exactly the same thing. Build something insignificant for the military, charge a huge overprice and that way get the funding

Agreed.

Perhaps France, Germany, Spain and the UK (forget Italy) should cooperate on a Tornado or Sea King replacement (TBH I have no idea what the various militaries need) and award EADS the same subsidies that Boeing receive.