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Germany bans IHH because of links to Hamas, work against Israel's right to exist

and why the Danish institute has stated that they sponsor terrorism.
Apocalypse as you have already been in a thread where we discussed the European Jewish Congress calling for the banning of IHH in Europe and where the Danish report was discussed, you should be aware of a few things.

1. An article written for the Danish Institute is simply an article written for the institute. It is only as good or as bad as that article.

2. The article itself was very suspect. Pete gives a very full account of why here

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...group-ihh-banned-europe-4.html#post1058800458

but you have already seen that and know that.
 
Still no evidence of that. If Hamas takes the money the IHH wanted to go to AID to buy weapons then thats not there problem. There intention is clear. That doesn't make them criminals, especially since there is still no hard evidence to back this claim up.
If an organization allows its currency to be used/laundered for illicit purposes, then it is indeed a criminal enterprise. This is how drug cartels operate. Apparently, the Germans examined the money trail.

Lastly, did we not already establish the German IHH is unrelated to the Turks one?
That's a bit like saying the Indiana KKK is unrelated to the Alabama KKK.
 
Now, if only some of the Europeans would follow suit.

Other European countries don't have the guilt and baggage that Germany has so don't hold your breath and i'm not seeing any evidence linking Turkish IHH to this one.
 
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Still no evidence of that.
Actually I think that no matter how many evidence you'll witness you'd insist on stating that you didn't see any evidence.
It's becoming ridiculous by now.
They DO have an obligation to help Gazan's especially if they are the cause of there plight
That's the common mistake, Israel is not the cause of their plight and they weren't exactly a first world territory before the blockade.
Neverthless the blockade is lifted now and it is now a military blockade blocking only military items and items with dual-use.
Israel has no legal obligation to "help the Gazans".
 
Other European countries don't have the guilt and baggage that Germany has so don't hold your breath.

Are you trying to tie this to the holocaust?
lol wat
 
Apocalypse as you have already been in a thread where we discussed the European Jewish Congress calling for the banning of IHH in Europe and where the Danish report was discussed, you should be aware of a few things.

1. An article written for the Danish Institute is simply an article written for the institute. It is only as good or as bad as that article.

2. The article itself was very suspect. Pete gives a very full account of why here

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...group-ihh-banned-europe-4.html#post1058800458

but you have already seen that and know that.

Pete's reasoning cannot possibly be called "reasoning", unless you intend on making a joke.
He says that because the writer is an American expert on al-Qaeda that means the research is suspicious. It's simply the usual anti-America attitude coming from him.

So no, the research is not "suspicious", it is completely valid, even though it isn't exactly what you'd like to hear.
 
If an organization allows its currency to be used/laundered for illicit purposes, then it is indeed a criminal enterprise. This is how drug cartels operate. Apparently, the Germans examined the money trail.

We are not talking about the Germans.

That's a bit like saying the Indiana KKK is unrelated to the Alabama KKK.

Seriously? :shock:
 
Are you trying to tie this to the holocaust?
lol wat

No.
I think Germany did this to re enforce its best friend status with Israel and ofc because of its own policy on those organisation against Israel's existence and to pretend history has not influenced Germany's modern foreign policy when it comes to Israel is naive.

I was responding to the suggestion because other European countries don't follow suit, they don't have a backbone. Other European countries perhaps could care less and have no need to get involved.
 
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That's a bit like saying the Indiana KKK is unrelated to the Alabama KKK.

Or that the al-Qaeda cell in Yemen is not related to the al-Qaeda cell in Sudan. :lol:
 
No.
I think Germany did this to re enforce its best friend status with Israel and ofc because of its own policy on those organisation against Israel's existence and to pretend history has not influenced Germany's modern foreign policy when it comes to Israel is naive.

I was responding to the suggestion because other European countries don't follow suit, they don't have a backbone. Other European countries perhaps could care less and have no need to get involved.

Those other EUropean countries do seem to have the need to get involved in so many issues, what's so unattractive in making a stance against a terror-sponsoring organization?
 
Actually I think that no matter how many evidence you'll witness you'd insist on stating that you didn't see any evidence.
It's becoming ridiculous by now.

You haven't even provided a valuable source for christ sakes.

That's the common mistake, Israel is not the cause of their plight and they weren't exactly a first world territory before the blockade.

Yes, Israel and its blockade has caused the humanitarian crises we see in Gaza, sorry. Because you know, computers and chocolate was a national threat. :roll:

Neverthless the blockade is lifted now and it is now a military blockade blocking only military items and items with dual-use.

Good but its still a blockade. And even before it was lifted you where trying to convince me it was neccessary and "just". Obviously even the Israeli authorities saw that wasn't the case. But then again the wonders of international pressure, eh? The aid flotilla didn't reach its definition but still managed to change a lot.

Israel has no legal obligation to "help the Gazans".

If you knock somebody over you better be prepared to pick them up. If Israel really is a democratic nation then yes it has an obligation to act like one by relieving humanitarian issues in the region, especially the ones it has caused.
 
Those other EUropean countries do seem to have the need to get involved in so many issues, what's so unattractive in making a stance against a terror-sponsoring organization?

Does it benefit European countries to act? I doubt it.

Why should Europe get involved in Israel's problems? If it is in their interest then you may have a case.
 
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Those other EUropean countries do seem to have the need to get involved in so many issues, what's so unattractive in making a stance against a terror-sponsoring organization?

Because in Europe we realize the only difference between Israeli's and Arabs is the Arabs dont bother covering up there tracks when they murder in cold blood, and the Israeli's do.
Basically we are of the opinion your all barbaric savages that have done nothing to help your situation because your all too damn stubborn to act for your own good.
So this generation of innocent jews will be killed, and your childrens generation, and your childrens childrens generation.
All because your goddamn superiority and arrogance stopped you from finding a solution.
So why should we care what you lot do?
Find me one European poster here that is pro-Israel.
The British lot dont care.
bub doesn't care.
I couldn't care less.
PeteEU probably couldn't care less about Israel either.
We keep to ourselves and no we dont feel like we should get involved in everything, as you claim. We have Afghanistan and Iraq to worry about.
If the US feel it neccessary to burden themselves with Israel too, then be my guest.
 
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Pete's reasoning cannot possibly be called "reasoning", unless you intend on making a joke.
He says that because the writer is an American expert on al-Qaeda that means the research is suspicious. It's simply the usual anti-America attitude coming from him.

So no, the research is not "suspicious", it is completely valid, even though it isn't exactly what you'd like to hear.

I disagree and please try to have a break from the insults. I read the report Don provided, looked up the people who were supposed to have provided the information and came to much the same conclusions as Pete before he posted his.

Neverthless the blockade is lifted now and it is now a military blockade blocking only military items and items with dual-use.
Israel has no legal obligation to "help the Gazans".

This is not correct. Some more supplies may be being allowed in now however that in no way means the blockade is lifted.

Goods in sufficient quantity to be used for production are still not being allowed in. Gaza is still under an economic blockade. Given this people are unable to find jobs and earn money. Being unable to do this it is unlikely they will be able to afford much of the new goods being allowed in leaving their situation much the same.

There is also no free movement of people.
 
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That would mean that IHH supports terrorism because it funds its welfare programme which clearly designates them a supporter of terrorism in line with this law.

I'vew always had a bit of an issue with this line of reasoning. Here's my concern.

In the 1930s, you had the mob running soup kitchens and all different sorts of "charitable programs". Motivation for this, of course, was not related to "giving back to the community" or to do good or anything like that, clearly.

The mob, of course, was also extorting money from local businesses, engaged in numerous illegal lines of business, and murdering opponents/police officers/members of the public as it suited them.

So how do we then describe the mob, or people who donate money or material support to the mob.

Do we say that giving money to the mob, not knowing or controlling where the money is going, can be described as "contributing to a charitable organization" because "it funds its welfare programme", or do we see past the transparent veneer of charitable activity used to dull the impact of a distinctly negative agenda?


It is really no different than Hamas. it is a wholly negative agenda, both vis-a-vis Israel and, more importantly for these purposes, vis-a-vis the broader Palestinian population. Hamas as an organization and a political movmeent is NOT concerned about the general welfare of the population, economic opportunity, rule of law or any of those other elements one would expect to see in a civil society. Hamas is interested in its military/religious agenda and power IN SPITE of the general welfare of the population, not in order to further that welfare.

However, knowing what they know about society and human behaviour, and entirely consistent with the behaviour and rationalle of the mob providing public handouts in the 1930s, Hamas has recognized that "charitable giving" both can be used as a cover for appologists to run flak to obfuscate the organization's real agenda (where such flak is helpful; in other places, Hamas can be perfectly open about its agenda and intentions and does not need such appologist obfuscators), and to create dependencies of the population on the organization, such that the people (i) give the organization credit for the benefits that they provide at the expense of the people and the rboader society on which the organization parasitically exists and (ii) forgive the organization for the drastically and profoundly negative impact the organization has on the society on which it feeds.


If you can shed some light on this for me, that would be very helpful. How would you distinguish Hamas' charity and public works from the "charity" of the mob in the 1930s? Would you characterize the essence of Hamas as charity, and how would you justify that conclusion? How does one give money to the mob with no accountability and then rely on a "donating money to charity" type justification?

Seriously, I am really struggling with this.

Thanks
 
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You haven't even provided a valuable source for christ sakes.
Which is obviously torn-off, I've provided two sources already, wikipedia and the Danish institute.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...nst-israels-right-exist-2.html#post1058852576
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...nst-israels-right-exist-2.html#post1058852562
You're simply trying to deny it becasue it obliterates your so-called "arguments" for the terrorist-supporting organization.
Yes, Israel and its blockade has caused the humanitarian crises we see in Gaza, sorry. Because you know, computers and chocolate was a national threat. :roll:
I thought we've already been through this and you've reached the understanding that there was no humanitarian crisis in Gaza. I've even quoted an article from the new york times that stated so.
You're recycling failed arguments.
And no, banning chocolate is not going to cause a humanitarian crisis, that's retarded.
Good but its still a blockade.
A military blockade.
And even before it was lifted you where trying to convince me it was neccessary and "just".
I wasn't trying to convince you, I was merely arguing for the truth. It was necessary and just in general. Perhaps some items should have been re-examined and there should have been further explanation given for the banning of each item, but it was in general very just and Israel has even calculated the necessary amount of calories as to not cause a humanitarian crisis, and indeed contrary to the anti-Israeli crowd's barking it did not.
Obviously even the Israeli authorities saw that wasn't the case. But then again the wonders of international pressure, eh? The aid flotilla didn't reach its definition but still managed to change a lot.
That's what you get through propaganda, it's very effective, and I think you already understand it by now being one of the major propagandists.
Promoting a false reality for the sake of political acheievements, the Nazis were the best and that, now it's the terrorists and their supporters.


If you knock somebody over you better be prepared to pick them up. If Israel really is a democratic nation then yes it has an obligation to act like one by relieving humanitarian issues in the region, especially the ones it has caused.[/QUOTE]
 
Does it benefit European countries to act? I doubt it.

Why should Europe get involved in Israel's problems? If it is in their interest then you may have a case.

You've skipped the point, Europe always gets involved.
It just doesn't get involve when it needs to be on the Israeli side, simple as that.
 
You've skipped the point, Europe always gets involved.
It just doesn't get involve when it needs to be on the Israeli side, simple as that.

Well yeah.

No offence to Israel but oil > everything else.
Maybe if Israel had the same amount of oil and gas as countries like Saudi Arabia we'd be more willing to pretend we actually care.
But other European countries do not have the history that Germany does so unless it directly benefits us in some way, we have no need to get involved.
 
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Basically we are of the opinion your all barbaric savages
I know you won't understand that, since you lack any form of morality, but through this opinion of yours that you attribute to Israelis you admit and base the fact that it is you high-European folks who are truly the barbaric savages, the lowlives of society who embrace on a culture of hypocrisy through the support for one-sided terrorism and through the criticism of Israeli actions that Europe takes itself.
When an Israeli strike destined to a Hamas terrorist causes civilains deaths it is "cold blooded murder", but when a NATO airstrike causess 40 dead Afghani civilians it is a collateral damage, not a cold blooded murder.
This is the culture of the barbaric and the savages, a culture of pure double-standards.
 
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Well yeah.

No offence to Israel but oil > everything else.
Maybe if Israel had the same amount of oil and gas as countries like Saudi Arabia we'd be more willing to pretend we actually care.
But other European countries do not have the history that Germany does so unless it directly benefits us in some way, we have no need to get involved.

You've missed the point again, you do care, it's just that you do the one-sided care.
You care when Israeli soldiers refuse to let some "peaceful activists" take their lives, you get angry when Israel decides that the situation of its citizens, living under the shadow of the rockets, is unacceptable and initiates an operation - but you do not care when those rockets are falling on Israel.

It's simply untrue to say that you do not care about what's going on here, but it's true to say that you do not care about Israel, only about its actions.
 
Well yeah.

No offence to Israel but oil > everything else.
Maybe if Israel had the same amount of oil and gas as countries like Saudi Arabia we'd be more willing to pretend we actually care.
But other European countries do not have the history that Germany does so unless it directly benefits us in some way, we have no need to get involved.
True enough. Maybe you all should take a good look at what Germany is accomplishing with solar power. I was there not that long ago. Solar panels are everywhere. On houses, on buildings, lining freeways, solar-panel farms. Simply amazing.
 
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You've missed the point again, you do care, it's just that you do the one-sided care.
You care when Israeli soldiers refuse to let some "peaceful activists" take their lives, you get angry when Israel decides that the situation of its citizens, living under the shadow of the rockets, is unacceptable and initiates an operation - but you do not care when those rockets are falling on Israel.

It's simply untrue to say that you do not care about what's going on here, but it's true to say that you do not care about Israel, only about its actions.

True.
Governments are more quiet when Israel is on the receiving end of rockets but will condemn it when it reacts.

But to be fair we do condemn Hamas as well but why bother taking it a step further? Its not our fight.
We condemn Israel if it kills a large amount of civilians but that is as far as it goes we do not put sanctions on it, we don't stop trading/talking with it.
 
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