Germany bans IHH because of links to Hamas, work against Israel's right to exist

Apocalypse · Jul 12, 2010

Germany bans group accused of Hamas links

Interior minister says organizations that directly or indirectly work against Israel's right to exist lose their right to be active in Germany

News agencies
Published: 07.12.10, 14:23 / Israel News

Germany's government has banned an organization it accuses of collecting donations that are sent to Hamas-related welfare projects. The Islamist movement is included on the European Union's terror group blacklist.

German Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere said in a statement that the International Humanitarian Relief Organization was banned Monday because it has used donations to support projects in Gaza that are related to Hamas – while presenting their activities to donors as humanitarian help.

"Under the guise of humanitarian aid, the IHH has long backed, with significant financial assistance, so-called social welfare organizations based in the Gaza Strip that can be linked to Hamas," he said.

"Donations to so-called social welfare groups belonging to Hamas, such as the millions given by IHH, actually support the terror organization Hamas as a whole."

Hamas, which runs Gaza, doesn't recognize Israel. De Maiziere said organizations that directly or indirectly work against Israel's right to exist lose their right to be active in Germany.

(...)

The Associated Press and AFP contributed to this report

Germany bans group accused of Hamas links - Israel News, Ynetnews

The IHH is the organization whose members have made the majority of the violent crowd on board the Mavi Marmara during the Gaza Flotilla incident.

The was found in a research by the Danish Institute for International Studies to have ties to Hamas and other terrorist entities, directly providing funds for Hamas under the mask of "humanitarian aid", the organization's ties to terrorists were since then acknowledged by Israel, the US, and some other entities.

Kudos to Germany for that move, it deserves every appreciation for opposing organizations that sponsor terror and act against Israel's right to exist.

Gardener · Jul 12, 2010

Apocalypse said:
The IHH is the organization whose members have made the majority of the violent crowd on board the Mavi Marmara during the Gaza Flotilla incident.

The was found in a research by the Danish Institute for International Studies to have ties to Hamas and other terrorist entities, directly providing funds for Hamas under the mask of "humanitarian aid", the organization's ties to terrorists were since then acknowledged by Israel, the US, and some other entities.

Kudos to Germany for that move, it deserves every appreciation for opposing organizations that sponsor terror and act against Israel's right to exist.

Kudos to Germany, but I'm just waiting for all the howls of protest by their brainwashed supporters dutifully repeating their mantra "They were just criticizing Israel".

kaya'08 · Jul 12, 2010

If you guys could provide some links that show's deliberate political attempts to end the existence of Israel then i will say kudos to Germany.
Until then, this was just a sign of friendship coming from Germany's direction. The IHH doesn't exist or operate in Germany, so nobody could care less.

I just read now that it funds Hamas "welfare" programs. Does that mean social programmes that help support Gazans?

Gardener · Jul 12, 2010

kaya'08 said:
If you guys could provide some links that show's deliberate political attempts to end the existence of Israel then i will say kudos to Germany.

Perhaps you should ask Germany, instead.

kaya'08 said:
Until then, this was just a sign of friendship coming from Germany's direction. The IHH doesn't exist or operate in Germany, so nobody could care less.

No, they were banned because their contributions supported Hamas, the evidence for such proving satisfactory to the German authorities. Good try at subterfuge, though.

kaya'08 said:
I just read now that it funds Hamas "welfare" programs. Does that mean social programmes that help support Gazans?

it also funds the organization as a whole, an organization commited to "killing Jews until they hide behind rocks and trees". Do you consider the genocide of a people to be consistant with that you expect of any other humanitarian effort involved in welfare?

Somehow, I have missed the red cross mission statement in that regard.

alexa · Jul 12, 2010

kaya'08 said:
If you guys could provide some links that show's deliberate political attempts to end the existence of Israel then i will say kudos to Germany.
Until then, this was just a sign of friendship coming from Germany's direction. The IHH doesn't exist or operate in Germany, so nobody could care less.

I just read now that it funds Hamas "welfare" programs. Does that mean social programmes that help support Gazans?

Apparently this IHH has no ties with the Turkish one.:doh

The IHH in Frankfurt has denied any connections with the Turkish-based organization of the same name that sponsored the recent ill-fated flotilla ship, the Mavi Mamara, which challenged Israel's naval blockade of Gaza. Three parliamentarians from the German Left Party were on board that boat.

Although its logo is virtually identical to the group in Germany, the IHH in Turkey does not list the group in Germany on its website.

seems like there may also be some inter politicating going on

The announced ban may be seen as a retort to the German Parliament, which recently passed a unanimous, multi-party motion demanding that Israel drop its blockade of Gaza. Critics say the German-based group ultimately shares the same goals as the Turkish one -- provoking conflict with Israel.

Germany bans Hamas-supporting group IHH | JTA - Jewish & Israel News

kaya'08 · Jul 12, 2010

Gardener said:
Perhaps you should ask Germany, instead.

No, they were banned because their contributions supported Hamas, the evidence for such proving satisfactory to the German authorities. Good try at subterfuge, though.

it also funds the organization as a whole, an organization commited to "killing Jews until they hide behind rocks and trees". Do you consider the genocide of a people to be consistant with that you expect of any other humanitarian effort involved in welfare?

Somehow, I have missed the red cross mission statement in that regard.

Are you talking about the German IHH? Because Alexa just bought up a good point. Or do you not know what you are talking about?

Gardener · Jul 12, 2010

alexa said:
Apparently this IHH has no ties with the Turkish one.:doh

What the actual article said is the the terrorist supporting group in question DENIED the relationship with the Turkish group, and this despite the great similarity of logos.

It is only if you believe the terrorists that you would automatically state their claims as truth.

Gardener · Jul 12, 2010

kaya'08 said:
. Or do you not know what you are talking about?

THe question is "do you?".

Why would you take the claims of a terrorist support group as the absolute truth here, huh?

kaya'08 · Jul 12, 2010

Gardener said:
What the actual article said is the the terrorist supporting group in question DENIED the relationship with the Turkish group, and this despite the great similarity of logos.

It is only if you believe the terrorists that you would automatically state their claims as truth.

Gardener said:
THe question is "do you?".

Why would you take the claims of a terrorist support group as the absolute truth here, huh?

Gardener said:
it also funds the organization as a whole, an organization commited to "killing Jews until they hide behind rocks and trees". Do you consider the genocide of a people to be consistant with that you expect of any other humanitarian effort involved in welfare?

Have you noticed that all you have done is make claims that the IHH is a terrorist organization, is this, is that, by mere speculation, without providing any substantial evidence?
You claim it funds more than just welfare programmes when that hasn't been proven.
You claim the German and Turkish IHH are related because of the similarity of there logo's when that too is completely unproven.
I know the Wendy logo and Wimpy logo are similar but apparently they are owned by seperate entities.

When will you start working with facts, Gardener?

Gardener · Jul 12, 2010

kaya'08 said:
Have you noticed that all you have done is make claims that the IHH is a terrorist organization, is this, is that, by mere speculation, without providing any substantial evidence?
You claim it funds more than just welfare programmes when that hasn't been proven.
You claim the German and Turkish IHH are related because of the similarity of there logo's when that too is completely unproven.
I know the Wendy logo and Wimpy logo are similar but apparently they are owned by seperate entities.

When will you start working with facts, Gardener?

Actually, it is the German government that has established the link.

If you wish to supprt the terrorist support group's version of "facts" by insisting that their claims are actually fact, you are certainly free to do so, but I place more trust in the German government here than I do the terrorist support group.

Apocalypse · Jul 12, 2010

kaya'08 said:
You claim it funds more than just welfare programmes when that hasn't been proven.

False:

In a 2006 Working paper published by the Danish Institute for International Studies, with respect to IHH largely based on Bruguière's findings,[47] terrorism analyst Evan Kohlmann, citing as source the closing argument for the prosecution in a French criminal court case co-authored by Bruguière, described by Kohlmann as "a French intelligence report", alleges that Turkey had known of the IHH links to terrorism for at least ten years, and that Turkish authorities began their own domestic criminal investigation of IHH as early as December 1997, when sources revealed that leaders of IHH were purchasing automatic weapons from regional Islamic militant groups. According to the source cited by Kohlmann, IHH's bureau in Istanbul was thoroughly searched, and its local officers were arrested; security forces uncovered "an array of disturbing items, including firearms, explosives, bomb-making instructions and a “jihad flag”"; and, after analyzing seized IHH documents, Turkish authorities concluded that "detained members of IHH were going to fight in Afghanistan, Bosnia and Chechnya".

IHH (Turkish NGO) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

alexa · Jul 12, 2010

Gardener said:
What the actual article said is the the terrorist supporting group in question DENIED the relationship with the Turkish group, and this despite the great similarity of logos.

It is only if you believe the terrorists that you would automatically state their claims as truth.

In your interest in coming in with swift insults you wrongly interpret what I siad. I said 'apparently'. I did not in any way misinterpret the article.

Shayah · Jul 12, 2010

I had to check to make sure Germany is still located in Europe. It is :2razz:

Kudos to Germany for displaying some uncommon euro-backbone.

kaya'08 · Jul 12, 2010

Apocalypse said:
False:

IHH (Turkish NGO) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OK i know about this already. Yet Turkish authorities had failed to prove that the IHH had been buying weapons from terrorists as a whole rather than a select few members who misdirected funds and had plans to escape to Afghanistan. They have since been arrested and remain rotting, where they belong, in a TURKISH prison.

Demon of Light · Jul 12, 2010

"Under the guise of humanitarian aid, the IHH has long backed, with significant financial assistance, so-called social welfare organizations based in the Gaza Strip that can be linked to Hamas," he said.

This is like that case with Americans who were trying to teach Hezbollah and other groups how to play nice and got accused of aiding terrorism. Hamas performs social works, indeed that is what Hamas was originally when Israel propped them up to offset Fatah, and assisting such works hardly makes an organization a terrorist organization or constitute support for a terrorist organization.

Gardener · Jul 12, 2010

alexa said:
In your interest in coming in with swift insults you wrongly interpret what I siad. I said 'apparently'. I did not in any way misinterpret the article.

Yes you did misinterpret it because you expressed the terrorist support group's denial as something that is "apparent".

It ISN'T apparent from any sort of objective standpoint, but ONLY if one supports the word of the terrorist support group.

Gardener · Jul 12, 2010

Shayah said:
Kudos to Germany for displaying some uncommon euro-backbone.

Now, if only some of the Europeans would follow suit.

Apocalypse · Jul 12, 2010

kaya'08 said:
OK i know about this already. Yet Turkish authorities had failed to prove that the IHH had been buying weapons from terrorists as a whole rather than a select few members who misdirected funds and had plans to escape to Afghanistan. They have since been arrested and remain rotting, where they belong, in a TURKISH prison.

I was more of referring to the Danish research, but I guess I'll need to be more specific there.

1. In 2006 the Danish Institute for International Studies reported that during the 1990s the Turkish relief organization IHH had links with Al-Qaeda and global jihad networks.
2. The well-documented report was prepared by Evan Kohlman an American scholar specializing in Al-Qaeda. The study deals with the involvement of Islamic charitable societies in supporting terrorism.

The links the Turkish organization IHH had with Al-Qaeda and global jihad networks

alexa · Jul 12, 2010

Gardener said:
Yes you did misinterpret it because you expressed the terrorist support group's denial as something that is "apparent".

It ISN'T apparent from any sort of objective standpoint, but ONLY if one supports the word of the terrorist support group.

It is said that there is no link. As it happens I looked for a smilie that would infer I didn't know the answer.

You however show yourself as always, knowing all answers regardless of any information.

In reality you just like to abuse. I do not know what your personality problems are that create this need, I just know you fail to be able to do anything else. You are flaming on this thread from your first post as you always do.

Demon of Light · Jul 12, 2010

Turkish authorities concluded that "detained members of IHH were going to fight in Afghanistan, Bosnia and Chechnya".

They were probably working with the CIA then.

donsutherland1 · Jul 12, 2010

Demon of Light said:
This is like that case with Americans who were trying to teach Hezbollah and other groups how to play nice and got accused of aiding terrorism.

The U.S. Supreme Court's decision was not a speech ruling. Instead, it upheld the ban on providing "material support" to terrorist organizations. Material support is not the same thing as protected speech.

From the law in question:

§ 2339A(b)(1)(2)(3):
(1) the term "material support or resources" means any property, tangible or intangible, or service, including currency or monetary instruments or financial securities, financial services, lodging, training, expert advice or assistance, safehouses, false documentation or identification, communications equipment, facilities, weapons, lethal substances, explosives, personnel (1 or more individuals who may be or include oneself), and transportation, except medicine or religious materials;

(2) the term "training" means instruction or teaching designed to impart a specific skill, as opposed to general knowledge; and

(3) the term "expert advice or assistance" means advice or assistance derived from scientific, technical or other specialized knowledge.

§ 2339B (a)(1):
Whoever knowingly provides material support or resources to a foreign terrorist organization, or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both, and, if the death of any person results, shall be imprisoned for any term of years or for life. To violate this paragraph, a person must have knowledge that the organization is a designated terrorist organization…

The definition of “material support or resources” is clear. Moreover, those who provide such material support or resources “must have knowledge that the organization is a designated terrorist organization.” Furthermore, the statute is quite specific with respect to defining “training” and “expert advice or assistance.” Hence, the Supreme Court found—rightly in my view—that free speech protections were not violated by the statute on account of its being overly vague, as had been asserted by Humanitarian Law Project.

kaya'08 · Jul 12, 2010

Apocalypse said:
I was more of referring to the Danish research, but I guess I'll need to be more specific there.

The links the Turkish organization IHH had with Al-Qaeda and global jihad networks

So links to terrorism means funding there welfare programme?

They may be terrorist scum but they do a lot in helping Gazans which has to be a point to them, considering all Israeli's are doing is the total opposite. So if they want to fund the very social programmes that support many poor Gazans, im ok with that.

kaya'08 · Jul 12, 2010

donsutherland1 said:
]§ 2339A(b)(1)(2)(3):
(1) the term "material support or resources" means any property, tangible or intangible, or service, including currency or monetary instruments or financial securities, financial services, lodging, training, expert advice or assistance, safehouses, false documentation or identification, communications equipment, facilities, weapons, lethal substances, explosives, personnel (1 or more individuals who may be or include oneself), and transportation, except medicine or religious materials;].]

That would mean that IHH supports terrorism because it funds its welfare programme which clearly designates them a supporter of terrorism in line with this law.

According to America.

(assuming the above counts for welfare programmes which is then stupid considering the current situation in Gaza with the blockade).

Thankfully we are in Europe not the US, where we dont consider Hamas to be a terrorist group (well, not all of its components just its paramilitary wing).

Apocalypse · Jul 12, 2010

kaya'08 said:
So links to terrorism means funding there welfare programme?

No, links to terrroism means funding Hamas through the claims that they're supplying humanitarian aid.
The money goes to Hamas, as the article states, and that's why Germany has banned them, and why the Danish institute has stated that they sponsor terrorism.

They may be terrorist scum but they do a lot in helping Gazans which has to be a point to them, considering all Israeli's are doing is the total opposite.

Israel has no obligation to "help the Gazans", and considering that most of them are hostile towards Israel I see no reason to as well, nevertheless Israel is indeed transferring humanitarian aid to the strip and the Israeli power core is the main supplier of electricity and energy to the Gaza Strip.

kaya'08 · Jul 12, 2010

Apocalypse said:
No, links to terrroism means funding Hamas through the claims that they're supplying humanitarian aid.
The money goes to Hamas, as the article states, and that's why Germany has banned them, and why the Danish institute has stated that they sponsor terrorism.

Still no evidence of that. If Hamas takes the money the IHH wanted to go to AID to buy weapons then thats not there problem. There intention is clear. That doesn't make them criminals, especially since there is still no hard evidence to back this claim up. Lastly, did we not already establish the German IHH is unrelated to the Turks one?

Israel has no obligation to "help the Gazans", and considering that most of them are hostile towards Israel I see no reason to as well, nevertheless Israel is indeed transferring humanitarian aid to the strip and the Israeli power core is the main supplier of electricity and energy to the Gaza Strip.

They DO have an obligation to help Gazan's especially if they are the cause of there plight.
The blockade isn't working
Hamas isn't weakened
We have been through this before
Realize you are wrong and move on.

Germany bans IHH because of links to Hamas, work against Israel's right to exist

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