France Riots-Proving Liberal Policies Don't Work

[aquapub]

No, you're only a liar of facts if there are no facts to support your claim. So again, show us the facts by backing up your claims with credible sources.

First let us discuss the common sense way one can grasp this...


The reason our jobs keep getting sent overseas is that our advanced economy has become too costly for businesses to hire people here...Why hire an American and pay for benefits, high wages, retirement, disability, and so on, when you can hire an Indian to do the same job for $2.00/hour and no benefits?

So, if our problem is that we can't compete because foreign labor is too cheap, should we then be doing everything in our power to make American labor even more expensive? Of course not. What makes American labor more expensive?

1) Trial lawyers-by needlessly raising healthcare costs, by making obscenely expensive liability protection necessary, etc.

Trial lawyers are one of the strongest liberal power sources. They vote for Democrats nearly without exception. Nearly every penny of their campaing contributions go to Democrats. Democrats have, in return, blocked each and every attempt Republicans have made to in any way curb frivolous lawsuits.

2) Higher taxes.

Democrats raise taxes, Republicans lower them.

3) Labor unions-everything unions were created to do is now covered by federal law, yet now we still allow them to strong arm companies into unaffordably higher wages, more expensive benefits, more employees than is needed to do the job, and unions keep companies from firing incompetent workers. How long do you think a company will stay in this country under a government that allows businesses to be extorted into bankruptcy?

Unions are without question, the single biggest source of power to liberals. They throw hundreds of mills of dollars into liberal campaigns every year. They smear Republicans and fund Democrats. In return, Democrats enable them to continue their mafia-like racket, sodomizing the economy for personal gain.


4) Illegal immigration-overcrowding our federal prisons, receiving welfare benefits, crowding our schools, eating away our taxes, getting free (i.e., taxpayer-funded) health care, etc.

Liberals favor open borders. Conservatives favor sensible restrictions and border enforcement.





Getting the picture? Like I said, liberal policies don't work. They do nothing but hurt the economy under the guise of reaching out to the little guy-who they are actually screwing over royally by insanely raising his cost of living, sending his job elsewhere, forcing him to belong to (and fund) unions he might not even want to associate with (so much for free assembly), etc.




As for the facts you requested, I guess I will RE-post the facts I already posted. I'm not catering to your suddenly unreasonable standards of proof (I've seen what you call "proof') by microscopically over-analyzing every source of everything I said. You're the one too biased to accept anything you disagree with as factual. If you would like to challenge any of them, name it. Otherwise drop the phony posturing and get over it.


Copied from an earlier (apparently ignored) post:

1) I wrote a paper on this using data from a couple books on the subject, sources on Lexis Nexis, and at the Library of Congress. I am at work right now and don't have access to it all, but here are a couple things I remember from it:

Socialist economies are always running at a crawl...

France's economic growth rate was 2.2%, and falling, for years. Germany's growth rate was 1.1%, and falling, for years. The U.K. was slightly better, but not by much.

America's growth rate was 5.4%, and growing, for years...and 5.4% of AMERICA'S economy is much more than 5.4% of France's, Germany's economies, even combined.

Socialists try to argue that this can be explained by our superior resources, but look at Hong Kong...Devoid of ANY natural resources from go, yet one of the most thriving metroipolises in existence. Not coincidentally, Hong Kong has spent nearly every second of its existence as one of the LEAST regulates-i.e., LEAST Socialist-countries in the world.

They have policies in socialized countries that make it nearly impossible to fire incompetent workers (until recently, which is one of the reasons they are rioting in France)...thank you, Socialism.

Socialism has gone so far in many European countries that people have stopped reproducing (between abortion, contraception, no need for children due to abundant social programs, etc.). By around 2050, these countries will find themselves having to import huge immigrant workforces to generate wealth (to support the ENORMOUS costs of all the expensive programs) and they will become drastically Asian and Muslim nations seemingly overnight.


2) An MSNBC report trying to explain the recent riots mentioned that it takes an average of FIVE YEARS for people to find jobs in France after college.


3) Socialism is why gas prices in Europe are at, what is it now, $6.00/gallon?


4) John Stossel (Libertarian ABC reporter) wrote a book called, "Give Me A Break." He writes about how places like India, which have traditionally been EXTREMELY Socialist (hence, economically stagnate) have recently exploded economically as they have enacted more and more deregulation-i.e., as they have moved AWAY from Socialism.

5) Everything public sucks. Everything private is cheaper, faster, and better (because profits dictate making things cost effective)-i.e., Socialism sucks at meeting people's needs and at allowing an economy to function.

Think about it...

Public schools, private schools; public housing, private housing; how well is your BMV run? My guess is, not well-because it is controlled by the government, as are ALL things under Socialism.

And don't tell me it's about funding. Washington D.C. schools are the most over-funded schools in the country and they are near the bottom.

 

[Willoughby]

New Democrat motto: If you can't beat them, indict them for things we are far more guilty of.

New Aquapub motto: Bang on about facts and evidence then when somebody points out an error in the facts and evidence have a go at him
...what a charming man!

Socialism is why gas prices in Europe are at, what is it now, $6.00/gallon?

please explain this point a little more

 

[akyron]

So did I, that's why I moved to France

Actualy it was four hours. The old working week was 39 hours.
You quoting incorrect facts? How surprising!!..

Actually the work week WAS 40 then 39 then 35 and it soon may be 39 again for a little while.. I still remember 1981. A nut from Highland Park shot the president in the chest. I was in the hospital and saw it on the monitor.
Either you are arguing for the sake of it or you really didnt know France had a 40 hour work week at one time..

French Workweek

"The French Employers Association sid today that it had agreed in priciple to reduce the working week to 39 from 40 hours. The agreement, reached after ratified by the unions before being presented in Parliament in Octoberto become law, negotiators said. The employers agreed to reduce the working week after union leaders withdrew a demand that the week be reduced to 35 hours by 1985. "

You ignore the fact that productivity in France actually increased after the 35 hour week was introduced, or the fact that France has a very high productivity rate. No, you stats freaks only like the stats which suit you..

I ignore nothing.
The French worker is more productive and that is a good thing.
What is not said is there is relatively low participation rates among younger and older workers. This means that most of the people working are prime age workers, who by definition are the most productive. That is why per-worker productivity in France is so high. Labour market reforms in France would actually worsen the overall measure of individual productivity.

Yes, national strike. They're allowed in free countries. And it's to protest against the abusive CPE that this right-wing government wants to implement against the will of 80% of French people.
Freedom of speech - strange concept to United Statesians I know.

I think its great.
I have no idea what you are defensive about there. I am not arguing with you about any of that.
I find it funny they timed it perfectly to make a four day weekend is all.
Ironical.


unemployment in France is at 10% and there is a widespread perception that the law has cut salaries and living standards. France will now allow a 39-hour workweek.

"The intention was to spread work around, but the effect was to spread our salaries around," Thierry Breton, France's new finance minister, said last week, as quoted by the Associated Press.

The new 39-hour workweek legislation is expected to pass, despite the much-to-be-expected public protests earlier this month and denunciations by the Socialists, who passed "les heures" but are now out of power."



I think things will be looking up for France.
Adding a couple more hours wont hurt them economically and should increase productivity a bit.

For even shorter working hours go to Norway.

"only Norwegian and Dutch employees worked less time each year than the French"

Wheeee! Im done. Have a great week.

 

[steen]

For even shorter working hours go to Norway.

And they aren't rioting in Norway. Must be that Liberal policies DO work after all. :2razz:

 

[PeteEU]

Socialist economies are always running at a crawl...

Tell that to the Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Spain and a few other countries. Heck tell that to China and Russia...

France's economic growth rate was 2.2%, and falling, for years. Germany's growth rate was 1.1%, and falling, for years. The U.K. was slightly better, but not by much.

Actually the UKs growth rate since Tony Blair took over has been very very good, and is only now slowing down. Germany's growth rate had for decades been much higher than the American and so has many other countries. Is there a problem, yup, but dont blame one side of the political spectrum for the laws and ideas. Almost all countries have had right wing and left wing goverments over the last 50 years and all have had the welfare state and the good of the people in mind, not the good of political backers and big corporations.

America's growth rate was 5.4%, and growing, for years...and 5.4% of AMERICA'S economy is much more than 5.4% of France's, Germany's economies, even combined.

And yet Chirac aint no socialist.. explain that? The Danish goverment is as conservative as you can get in Europe (which means pinko liberal by American terms) and yet the goverment of Norway is as socailist as you can get... the same goes for the Swedish and Finnish..

Socialists try to argue that this can be explained by our superior resources, but look at Hong Kong...Devoid of ANY natural resources from go, yet one of the most thriving metroipolises in existence. Not coincidentally, Hong Kong has spent nearly every second of its existence as one of the LEAST regulates-i.e., LEAST Socialist-countries in the world.

Lol give me a break. Hong Kong has been the powerhouse of that region for decades, both under British rule and now under communist China. Money talks in that city and always has done. Its been the capitial of asian success story and the gateway to China during British rule. Luxembourg is exactly the same.. top 5 GDP per capita (nr 1. atm I think).. and they have one industry.. BANKING!

They have policies in socialized countries that make it nearly impossible to fire incompetent workers (until recently, which is one of the reasons they are rioting in France)...thank you, Socialism.

Depends on the country. In northern Europe its pretty easy to fire a person as long as you have a valid reason and a valid reason is so easy to find. Hey we need to cut down.. valid reason. Hey you are black or with child.. NOT valid reason. Get the idea?

Are there countries that have stupid laws they have to deal with.. of course, but dont take the problems that France has and throw it all over the rest of the continent.

Socialism has gone so far in many European countries that people have stopped reproducing (between abortion, contraception, no need for children due to abundant social programs, etc.).

What a load of bullshit. Face it since we gave women the right to vote and think we have seen lower birth rates. The more modern and educated and secular a country becomes the more power women get to decide over thier own future. Instead of birthing machines they actually have a say in how things are done.

By around 2050, these countries will find themselves having to import huge immigrant workforces to generate wealth (to support the ENORMOUS costs of all the expensive programs) and they will become drastically Asian and Muslim nations seemingly overnight.

Bullshit, pure speculation and fear mongering.. That is if the present programs stay as they are and that they will not. The programs have been changing in most countries for years (under socialist and conservative leaderships).. are they changing fast enough.. well thats doubtful but we shall see. And we dont need to import more immigrants.. we got plenty as it is after we had to import so many during the boom years of the 1960s.. Now if we had gotten rid of them when the jobs went then I would agree.. at least you can blame socialists and thier policies for that stupid mistake.

4) John Stossel (Libertarian ABC reporter) wrote a book called, "Give Me A Break." He writes about how places like India, which have traditionally been EXTREMELY Socialist (hence, economically stagnate) have recently exploded economically as they have enacted more and more deregulation-i.e., as they have moved AWAY from Socialism.

Good one. He forgot to mention the cast system which is the number one problem of India today. He also forgot to mention that the main reason that India moved away from the "socialist" ways is that its normal backers, the USSR is no more. He probally also forgot to mention that going from nothing to something is one big step and thats exactly what India has done. When you have 1 billion poor people who would gladly work for food, then its not hard to provide cheap labour is it. And providing jobs for these people is a must or else they might just revolt and string you up on the a telefon pole....

3) Socialism is why gas prices in Europe are at, what is it now, $6.00/gallon?

No, greedy car makers who refused to create clean running cars and long running cars is the reason. Also a little thing called the Oil Crisis in 1973 had a lot to do with policy on this. Also the fact we Europeans see the car as a transport thing and not as a second wife/boyfriend has also a lot to do with it. Non polluting cars and fuels have lower taxes and hence lower prices. But all in all most politicans want cars off the roads and to expand the use of public transport.. that it not always works is another debate. Socialism has nothing to do with high gas prices.

5) Everything public sucks. Everything private is cheaper, faster, and better (because profits dictate making things cost effective)-i.e., Socialism sucks at meeting people's needs and at allowing an economy to function.

So that the US uses more of its GDP on health care than anyone else means that its whole health care system is public right?

Private might be cheaper some of the time, but cheap does not mean good quality or effective. In Denmark we have privatized many things including caring for the elderly and its funny how many of those contracts had to be ripped up because the private companies did not live up to the minimum standards set in thier contracts and in fact that thier service turned out to be more expensive.. shocker!!!! Of course there have been success stories too.

Some things need to be public owned, other things can be private.. I would NEVER live in a country where the courts, police and army were private owned.. would you?

Think about it...

Public schools, private schools; public housing, private housing; how well is your BMV run? My guess is, not well-because it is controlled by the government, as are ALL things under Socialism.

So you would rather have an elite of rich white people who are educated and healthy and mass of poor under educated people who are starving or living as slaves to the elite? Because that is what total private enterprise does.. only those who can pay can get, and hence a large part of the population are dumped in the gutter when it comes to education and health care. Thats why many European countries have both systems.. even the US has that for now at least.

The reason the west has advanced its society so much over the last 150 years is not because we kept the masses down by not educating them is it now? We tried that for 2000 plus years..

And don't tell me it's about funding. Washington D.C. schools are the most over-funded schools in the country and they are near the bottom.

And the political structure of D.C., budget, poverty and general social and economic problems of the area have NOTHING to do with it? Who is it again who runs D.C.... the mayor or Capitol Hill?

There are always 2 sides to this issue and just bashing "socialist" thinking a policy for all the problems is not a very constructive way. Or maybe we should start to examine the many wonders of "conservative" policy.. should we start with slavery?

 

[LeftyHenry]

Let's just clear some things up about the riots. I being half-french and having traveled there to visit family know more about France then the dillusional fascist Aquapub will ever know about it. First off, it is not a liberal policy that is causing these riots but rather, a CONSERVATIVE policy, from a president that's part of the French conservative party. The policy allows people to be fired without cause which is something that the French aren't used to. People in France are used to keeping one carreer there entire life and improving upon it thus becoming more efficient. This policy is conservative, not liberal.

BTW since when does a riot mean that a country is in shambles? Rodney King riots didn't mean that our nation was failing? So why does this?

 

[aquapub]

And they aren't rioting in Norway. Must be that Liberal policies DO work after all. :2razz:

:lol:

Are you intentionally misinterpreting things that have already been explained to you or are you just an embasyl? Wait, don't answer, I think everyone here already knows.

But since you keep acting like this hasn't been explained to you, I will spell it out again in simple terms.

France can't create jobs because of their obscenely expensive, over-the-top Socialist policies...People are rioting because they have no jobs...Connect the dots...Now remember that this has been explained to you before you go misrepresenting me again, oh "lie detector." :roll:

 

[aquapub]

Let's just clear some things up about the riots. I being half-french and having traveled there to visit family know more about France then the dillusional fascist Aquapub will ever know about it. First off, it is not a liberal policy that is causing these riots but rather, a CONSERVATIVE policy, from a president that's part of the French conservative party. The policy allows people to be fired without cause which is something that the French aren't used to. People in France are used to keeping one carreer there entire life and improving upon it thus becoming more efficient. This policy is conservative, not liberal.

BTW since when does a riot mean that a country is in shambles? Rodney King riots didn't mean that our nation was failing? So why does this?

They are rioting because there are no jobs and the government is trying to give companies some much needed room to financially survive by UNDOING a LIBERAL POLICY that complicates (to a point of near impossibility) the firing of incompetent and/or un-needed workers. That is only conservative to psychotically left-wing hysterics like you, Che.

Nice try.

 

[aquapub]

New Aquapub motto: Bang on about facts and evidence then when somebody points out an error in the facts and evidence have a go at him
...what a charming man!

You've pulled a lot of partisan crap here that I've called you out for, but the one time you caught me in an actual error (at the beginning of this thread) I openly and immediately admitted it.

You are full of crap.

 

[Kelzie]

Are you intentionally misinterpreting things that have already been explained to you or are you just an embasyl? Wait, don't answer, I think everyone here already knows.

That is only conservative to psychotically left-wing hysterics like you, Che.

You are full of crap.

[mod mode]

:smash:

aquapub I've had quite enough. If you can't be civil, don't debate.

Consider yourself warned.

[/mod mode]

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

[mod mode]

:smash:

aquapub I've had quite enough. If you can't be civil, don't debate.

Consider yourself warned.

[/mod mode]

What no warning to Che? He called aquapub a delusional Fascist, your liberal bias is showing, aquapub was only responding to a personal attack he wasn't inititiating it.

 

[jfuh]

First let us discuss the common sense way one can grasp this...

Lol, *cough*bull$hit*cough*

The reason our jobs keep getting sent overseas is that our advanced economy has become too costly for businesses to hire people here...Why hire an American and pay for benefits, high wages, retirement, disability, and so on, when you can hire an Indian to do the same job for $2.00/hour and no benefits?

So, if our problem is that we can't compete because foreign labor is too cheap, should we then be doing everything in our power to make American labor even more expensive? Of course not. What makes American labor more expensive?

No, you don't need to send overseas, just make the manufacturing secter more automated and thus more efficient. Europe does it quite well.

1) Trial lawyers-by needlessly raising healthcare costs, by making obscenely expensive liability protection necessary, etc.

Trial lawyers are one of the strongest liberal power sources. They vote for Democrats nearly without exception. Nearly every penny of their campaing contributions go to Democrats. Democrats have, in return, blocked each and every attempt Republicans have made to in any way curb frivolous lawsuits.

This is only republican rhetoric that is completely untrue.

2) Higher taxes.

Democrats raise taxes, Republicans lower them.

When republicans raise spending to a rediculous degree, some one has to pay for it. Regan lowered taxes, but then Bush Sr. Raised all those taxes back and more. So I guess you can only say raising taxes is not limited to dems, but to practicalists.

3) Labor unions-everything unions were created to do is now covered by federal law

yet now we still allow them to strong arm companies into unaffordably higher wages, more expensive benefits, more employees than is needed to do the job, and unions keep companies from firing incompetent workers.

That's again more conservative rant

How long do you think a company will stay in this country under a government that allows businesses to be extorted into bankruptcy?

Seems like they're still here. The only cheat is cooperations cheating the tax codes or the economy. Enron ring a bell?

Unions are without question, the single biggest source of power to liberals. They throw hundreds of mills of dollars into liberal campaigns every year. They smear Republicans and fund Democrats. In return, Democrats enable them to continue their mafia-like racket, sodomizing the economy for personal gain.

And Repubs represent the CEO's that throw several more millions of dollars at re-election of repubs or election of them. Jack Abramoff?

4) Illegal immigration-overcrowding our federal prisons, receiving welfare benefits, crowding our schools, eating away our taxes, getting free (i.e., taxpayer-funded) health care, etc.

Lol, ok first source?
Second, illegal immigrants are deported upon detaining. So more rant, but again, source?

Liberals favor open borders. Conservatives favor sensible restrictions and border enforcement.

For a country founded on and remains dependent on immigration, why shut it out? Liberals are not in favor of open borders, we're in favor of allowing more immigration.
Your cons want to build a billion dollar wall across the border, yeah, really really sensible.

Getting the picture? Like I said, liberal policies don't work. They do nothing but hurt the economy under the guise of reaching out to the little guy-who they are actually screwing over royally by insanely raising his cost of living, sending his job elsewhere, forcing him to belong to (and fund) unions he might not even want to associate with (so much for free assembly), etc.

Hmm FDR was a liberal, and seems he reversed Hoover's trickel down economy with his NewDeal. So I see you've no basis for your arguments.

As for the facts you requested, I guess I will RE-post the facts I already posted. I'm not catering to your suddenly unreasonable standards of proof (I've seen what you call "proof') by microscopically over-analyzing every source of everything I said. You're the one too biased to accept anything you disagree with as factual. If you would like to challenge any of them, name it. Otherwise drop the phony posturing and get over it.

I still see no facts here, just more extreem right wing consipracy theories, attack on liberals and no sources.
You haven't shown any credible source at all? WHy should anyone believe what you've said.

Copied from an earlier (apparently ignored) post:

1) I wrote a paper on this using data from a couple books on the subject, sources on Lexis Nexis, and at the Library of Congress. I am at work right now and don't have access to it all, but here are a couple things I remember from it:

Socialist economies are always running at a crawl...

France's economic growth rate was 2.2%, and falling, for years. Germany's growth rate was 1.1%, and falling, for years. The U.K. was slightly better, but not by much.

America's growth rate was 5.4%, and growing, for years...and 5.4% of AMERICA'S economy is much more than 5.4% of France's, Germany's economies, even combined.

Socialists try to argue that this can be explained by our superior resources, but look at Hong Kong...Devoid of ANY natural resources from go, yet one of the most thriving metroipolises in existence. Not coincidentally, Hong Kong has spent nearly every second of its existence as one of the LEAST regulates-i.e., LEAST Socialist-countries in the world.

They have policies in socialized countries that make it nearly impossible to fire incompetent workers (until recently, which is one of the reasons they are rioting in France)...thank you, Socialism.

Socialism has gone so far in many European countries that people have stopped reproducing (between abortion, contraception, no need for children due to abundant social programs, etc.). By around 2050, these countries will find themselves having to import huge immigrant workforces to generate wealth (to support the ENORMOUS costs of all the expensive programs) and they will become drastically Asian and Muslim nations seemingly overnight.


2) An MSNBC report trying to explain the recent riots mentioned that it takes an average of FIVE YEARS for people to find jobs in France after college.


3) Socialism is why gas prices in Europe are at, what is it now, $6.00/gallon?


4) John Stossel (Libertarian ABC reporter) wrote a book called, "Give Me A Break." He writes about how places like India, which have traditionally been EXTREMELY Socialist (hence, economically stagnate) have recently exploded economically as they have enacted more and more deregulation-i.e., as they have moved AWAY from Socialism.

5) Everything public sucks. Everything private is cheaper, faster, and better (because profits dictate making things cost effective)-i.e., Socialism sucks at meeting people's needs and at allowing an economy to function.

Think about it...

Public schools, private schools; public housing, private housing; how well is your BMV run? My guess is, not well-because it is controlled by the government, as are ALL things under Socialism.

And don't tell me it's about funding. Washington D.C. schools are the most over-funded schools in the country and they are near the bottom.

Ignored for good reason, no source.

 

[jfuh]

:lol:

Are you intentionally misinterpreting things that have already been explained to you or are you just an embasyl? Wait, don't answer, I think everyone here already knows.

But since you keep acting like this hasn't been explained to you, I will spell it out again in simple terms.

France can't create jobs because of their obscenely expensive, over-the-top Socialist policies...People are rioting because they have no jobs...Connect the dots...Now remember that this has been explained to you before you go misrepresenting me again, oh "lie detector." :roll:

Where are your facts Aqua? I see only personal attack and opinion. You're the one that claimed to base everything on fact, yet I see nothing.

 

[jfuh]

What no warning to Che? He called aquapub a delusional Fascist, your liberal bias is showing, aquapub was only responding to a personal attack he wasn't inititiating it.

Aqua was already specifically warned before.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Aqua was already specifically warned before.

So what? That doesn't give Che free reign to call him a delusional fascist.

 

[jfuh]

So what? That doesn't give Che free reign to call him a delusional fascist.

That's aside the point. Kelize is anything but playing favorites here.

 

[Urethra Franklin]

Is it worth "debating" with aquapub since he's only intersted in avoiding direct questions and hurling abuse, has evidently never experienced France and demonstrates no understanding of the situation here, nor what the contrat de premier embauche is all about (I doubt he even knows what that means). Che is quite right of course, it's a conservative policy people are on the streets protecting against, because years of socialist policies have given them benefits most US citizens can only dream about. And contrary to what aquapub thinks, far from impoverishing us, he ought to come here and experinece just how well we live here, ditto Norway, Denmark etc.

As for your we won the war quip aquapub, well I've had that so many times on this forum it's laughable. You played a part in the liberation of Europe and you owe your independence to the French. Both points are irrelevant to this debate. Get over it aquapub, and try answering the direct question I posed to you many posts ago. Or do you avoid answering it because you can't?

 

[Kelzie]

What no warning to Che? He called aquapub a delusional Fascist, your liberal bias is showing, aquapub was only responding to a personal attack he wasn't inititiating it.

Cry me a freakin river. Jesus Christ, I can't read every post that is created on this board. If you don't like something, report it. Che insulted one person, aquapub did three in a row. My decision stands. But just for you.

[mod mode]

Che no name calling.

[/mod mode]

 

[Indy]

Is it worth "debating" with aquapub since he's only intersted in avoiding direct questions and hurling abuse, has evidently never experienced France and demonstrates no understanding of the situation here, nor what the contrat de premier embauche is all about (I doubt he even knows what that means). Che is quite right of course, it's a conservative policy people are on the streets protecting against, because years of socialist policies have given them benefits most US citizens can only dream about. And contrary to what aquapub thinks, far from impoverishing us, he ought to come here and experinece just how well we live here, ditto Norway, Denmark etc.

As for your we won the war quip aquapub, well I've had that so many times on this forum it's laughable. You played a part in the liberation of Europe and you owe your independence to the French. Both points are irrelevant to this debate. Get over it aquapub, and try answering the direct question I posed to you many posts ago. Or do you avoid answering it because you can't?

Hmm.. You make a very intersting point. In this country (US) I constantly hear French bashing and how we liberated them from the Nazi's and how they just wave the white flag anytime there is a fight. But I NEVER hear anybody bring up how it was their navy that pretty much forced britain the admit defeat in the revolutionary war. Well done sir, or madam; whichever the case may be. Touche!

 

[Ivan The Terrible]

Can we now Debate?!

Urethra Franklin,

Che is quite right of course, it's a conservative policy people are on the streets protecting against, because years of socialist policies have given them benefits most US citizens can only dream about.

Why do you think the conservative policy people want to do this?

 

[LeftyHenry]

They are rioting because there are no jobs and the government is trying to give companies some much needed room to financially survive by UNDOING a LIBERAL POLICY that complicates (to a point of near impossibility) the firing of incompetent and/or un-needed workers. That is only conservative to psychotically left-wing hysterics like you, Che.

Nice try.

LOL they are rioting because the government is trying to let companies lay off workers for no reason. Have you watched the news? CNN, even FOX? They all acknowledge that it is the conservative policy that is allowing workers to be fired for no reason that is causing the riots.

The thing you don't understand about France is that it is one of the most successful countries because workers are insured there jobs. Although there is a higher unemployment rate in France then here, keep in mind that France is 1/4 the size of America and that they have tiny amount of people under the poverty line and a large middle class compared to our shrinking middle class and growing lower class.

 

[Urethra Franklin]

Can we now Debate?!

Urethra Franklin,




Why do you think the conservative policy people want to do this?

They're sucking up to big business.
What they fear more than anything is that in the 2007 presidentials, the socilaists will put forward a candidate like Ségolène Royale, who may well do a Tony Blair style lurch to the centre ground, start courting the business community and essentially usurp THEIR ground. So they're keping the capitalists sweet, making it easier for them to fire staff willy nilly, which is currently not easy to do in France. They claim the CPE will create more jobs - what it will do is what the YTS and YOPS schemes did in the UK in the Thatcher years, enabling businesses to take on a school leaver at minimum wage for 6 months, throw them on the scrapheap before any substantial benefits or pay rise has come into play, and then take on another minimum wage school leaver to replace them. The CPE will create insecurity and allow exploitation of the unskilled/low skilled workers, giving them no scope for any further training or advancement. I believe there are fairer ways to create employment.

 

[Room101]

So did I, that's why I moved to France

Yes, national strike. They're allowed in free countries. And it's to protest against the abusive CPE that this right-wing government wants to implement against the will of 80% of French people.
Freedom of speech - strange concept to United Statesians I know.

I must take issue with several points you raise (although I unreservedly recognize your right to raise them).

First let me say that I admire the French (Did I just write that?) for their ability to band together in mass protest. That said, when we yankees stage protests punctuated by burning cars and buildings, we call it a riot. It's when poor people express their anger at the establishment by destroying property owned by other poor people. I don't quite understand the logic involved, but people seem to like it. Sometimes we riot if our favorite team loses, or wins, or there's nothing to do on Friday night. Hey, different people have their own ideas about what makes a good time, but let's not pretend these people are out to do their civic duty in defense of their fellow man.
It's a mob:2mad::hammer: :flames::beat,
a bunch of rabid thugs who are p!ssed off and smashing everything in sight, rampaging en masse because they are too cowardly and mindless to make a stand alone. (It does make for good TV though, in a morbid curiosity kind of way) France and the U.S. are both republics. We elect our leaders. Representative democracies (republics) deserve the governments they get. The voters have no one to blame but themselves. We don't have any right to destroy the property of our fellow citizens just because we dissaprove of a law.

Second, the United States has more closely guarded freedoms of speech than any E.U. member nation. We even tolerate intolerance. Have you seen the crap we put on TV? If that doesn't prove our freedom of expression, (if not our collective good taste) nothing will.

Third . . . No, I guess thats it.

 

[The Real McCoy]

The thing you don't understand about France is that it is one of the most successful countries because workers are insured there jobs.

If high unemployment rates, 5 year job waiting periods for college graduates and a stagnating economy are your definitions of successful, I'm not sure I want to know what you consider a failure.

 

[Urethra Franklin]

I must take issue with several points you raise (although I unreservedly recognize your right to raise them).

First let me say that I admire the French (Did I just write that?) for their ability to band together in mass protest. That said, when we yankees stage protests punctuated by burning cars and buildings, we call it a riot. It's when poor people express their anger at the establishment by destroying property owned by other poor people. I don't quite understand the logic involved, but people seem to like it. Sometimes we riot if our favorite team loses, or wins, or there's nothing to do on Friday night. Hey, different people have their own ideas about what makes a good time, but let's not pretend these people are out to do their civic duty in defense of their fellow man.
It's a mob:2mad::hammer: :flames::beat,
a bunch of rabid thugs who are p!ssed off and smashing everything in sight, rampaging en masse because they are too cowardly and mindless to make a stand alone. (It does make for good TV though, in a morbid curiosity kind of way) France and the U.S. are both republics. We elect our leaders. Representative democracies (republics) deserve the governments they get. The voters have no one to blame but themselves. We don't have any right to destroy the property of our fellow citizens just because we dissaprove of a law.

Second, the United States has more closely guarded freedoms of speech than any E.U. member nation. We even tolerate intolerance. Have you seen the crap we put on TV? If that doesn't prove our freedom of expression, (if not our collective good taste) nothing will.

Third . . . No, I guess thats it.

Well room 101, you elect a goverment to represent your interests, so when they try to put through a bill that 80% of the population disagree with you exercise your right to free speech and you say hell, no. Again, I stress I believe these "riots" are being overstated in US media reports. I live and work in Paris, and am going about my daily business seeing no trouble (just like last time!) This is essentially a peaceful student protest, being occasionally highjacked by opportunist thugs (many being extreme right wing agitators, nothing to do with the anti CPE movement). Don't tell me that doesnt happen in any free country.

Second, I believe the UK and France, amongst other European nations, far outstrip most parts of the world on the freedom of speech issue. Communists for example, don't get such a smooth ride trying to express themselves in your part of the world. As Voltaire said, "I may hate what you say but I'll fight to the death to defend your right to say it" Just look at how the UK allows the freedom of expression of muslim extremists even after last July's bombings when it really sticks in the throat. I don't believe the US maintained such open policy after 9/11.