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Football Ban for IRA Flag

When did I say he started the shooting? It just shows there was meant to be some kind of IRA, a terrorist group, event.

you said

McGuinness has admitted, after long denying it, that he was there on bloody Sunday with senior IRA figures and it seems extremely likely that Republicans fired the first shots. Whatever the British army did, and it seems some went beyond what they should have, they did it in a military operation to put down such an action.
:roll:

Now you are trying to suggest that the very fact that he was there means there was meant to be some kind of IRA terrorist group event. How biased can you get?

You should read the article I provided because it is Sayle's belief that the British Army actually tried to provoke the IRA into retaliating. Then it would have been able to suggest that the other civilians killed were just killed in the cross fire.

This did not happen so it was seen for what it was a Massacre by the British Army.

Try and read what people provide before you come on to make comments and then even deny you have made those very comments.
 
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you said

:roll:

Now you are trying to suggest that the very fact that he was there means there was meant to be some kind of IRA terrorist group event. How biased can you get?

You should read the article I provided because it is Sayle's belief that the British Army actually tried to provoke the IRA into retaliating. Then it would have been able to suggest that the other civilians killed were just killed in the cross fire.

This did not happen so it was seen for what it was a Massacre by the British Army.

Try and read what people provide before you come on to make comments and then even deny you have made those very comments.
So where did I say McGuinness started the shooting?

I'm not an expert on it but I believe the British were firing rubber bullets, hardly the usual weapon for a massacre.
 
So where did I say McGuinness started the shooting?

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stop trying to split hairs. You know perfectly well how
Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
McGuinness has admitted, after long denying it, that he was there on bloody Sunday with senior IRA figures and it seems extremely likely that Republicans fired the first shots.

comes over

I'm not an expert on it but I believe the British were firing rubber bullets, hardly the usual weapon for a massacre.

Do you know anything about Bloody Sunday - or are you just wanting to waste my time. Of course the army were firing live bullets. That was what killed the civilians. I do not have time to waste on someone who isn't even aware the army were firing live bullets and who refuses to do research to find the most basic facts.
 
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stop trying to split hairs. You know perfectly well how

comes over
I did not say he started the shooting, nor did I mean too, nor do I think that passage implies that as its most obvious meaning.


Do you know anything about Bloody Sunday - or are you just wanting to waste my time. Of course the army were firing live bullets. That was what killed the civilians. I do not have time to waste on someone who isn't even aware the army were firing live bullets and who refuses to do research to find the most basic facts.
I meant to qualify it by saying they started by firing live bullets. Obviously they later fired live ones, because otherwise that many people wouldn't have died. If you have a premeditated plan to massacre that isn't the usual way to start. It seems to me that whatever wrongs happened that day, and the only official inquiry so far has cleared the soldiers of most of the blame whatever its bias, it was the individual soldiers fault and not the armies or gov'ts plan.
 
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I did not say he started the shooting, nor did I mean too, nor do I think that passage implies that as its most obvious meaning.


I just have qualified it by saying they started by firing live bullets. Obviously they later fired live ones, because otherwise that many people wouldn't have died. If you have a premeditated plan to massacre that isn't the usual way to start. It seems to me that whatever wrongs happened that day, and the only official inquiry so far has cleared the soldiers of most of the blame whatever its bias, it was the individual soldiers fault and not the armies or gov'ts plan.

This is just non sense. You are making things up as you go along.

There is an enquiry on at the moment. We are still waiting for it Shaun Woodward orders Lord Saville to speed up Bloody Sunday inquiry - mirror.co.uk


I refer you to posts 98 and 101 which you still have not addressed.
 
So the IRA are freedom fighters eh?

Is this is the same people who peddled drugs to the catholic population to fight their war?
The same people who bullied local catholic business for "protection money"?
The same people who bombed hotels and fast food restaurants?
The same people who supports other terrorist organisations such as ETA or PLO?
The same people who sent people over to America who told the Americans that the British army were raping and pillaging Irish homes and familes?

I've actually never met a catholic who even LIKES the IRA.
 
Yes clearly if anyone knows more about the conflict then anyone else is glaswegians:roll:

Well there's plenty of irish people who feel the same, my good comrade RosaLux who used to post here being one, my family members in the North being others. I just get the sneaking suspicion that the guy i responded to really does meet too many catholics and if he does I'd guess he doesn't get to friendly as to find out their ideas.
 
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Come to Glasgow then. There's tens of thousands of us here.

Probably, but then Glasgow is a far more sectarian place than Belfast ever will be. Glasgow is also full of pricks who romanticise the Northern Irish conflict, and im talking both sides, not just yours.
 
So the IRA are freedom fighters eh?

Correct.


Is this is the same people who peddled drugs to the catholic population to fight their war?

That doesn't stop someone being a freedom fighter does it? It doesn't negate from the fact in the slightest.


The same people who bullied local catholic business for "protection money"?

It's really just a revolutionary tax. That's nothing new.



The same people who bombed hotels and fast food restaurants?


That doesn't stop you being a freedom fighter. The British army bombed many homes, never mind hotels. It didnt stop the fact they were fighting for freedom from Nazi domination, the same is true of the Irish freedom fighters.

The same people who supports other terrorist organisations such as ETA or PLO?

Two other fine freedom fighting organisations who all lovers of freedom respect and admire.

The same people who sent people over to America who told the Americans that the British army were raping and pillaging Irish homes and familes?

The reality was even worse than raping and pillaging. it was a racist, bigoted state of borderline apartheid proportions with 2 class of citizens.
 
Well there's plenty of irish people who feel the same, my good comrade RosaLux who used to post here being one, my family members in the North being others. I just get the sneaking suspicion that the guy i responded to really does meet too many catholics and if he does I'd guess he doesn't get to friendly as to find out their ideas.

Why the edit Castro?

You mentioned the red hand, then you edited it out. Why? Is it because your realised it is actually a celtic symbol? :roll:

Ha. Your ignorance know no bounds. You even assume who my social circles are. I am a Northern Irish uninoist and most of my friends in Belfast are catholics, some are Sinn Fein voters. I don't care what their political affiliation is, i just care if they are good mates or not.

Quite alot of us as moved on from bitter petty tribal rivalries in Northern Ireland while you are stuck in that bitter time warp away in Glasgow :2wave:.

If you love the people like you in Northen Ireland you are MORE than welcome to them in Glasgow and take the loyalists with you while you are it.
 
Probably, but then Glasgow is a far more sectarian place than Belfast ever will be. Glasgow is also full of pricks who romanticise the Northern Irish conflict, and im talking both sides, not just yours.

Im not so sure about that, its bad, but at least catholic children never got abuse from supposed adults just for trying to go to school. I won't deny that it is romanticized though, it definitely is, but not by everyone. For me I view it in a wider context of international revolutionary activity and so don't hold it as one of the more important conflicts in the way that most do. I personally have more interest in the struggles of the 26th July Movement and the PLO and I simply see the IRA as one small part of the war of the exploited against the exploiters.

My point with this thread wasn't even to get into a debate about Ireland, that is why I put it in sport. My point was the farce that football is becoming. Celtic are losing everything that attracts people to the club, even Rangers are going the same way, all be it much slower. There is seems to be an agenda to rip everything of football that made it fun. Soon there will be no reason to follow a team as there will be nothing to identify with.
 
That doesn't stop someone being a freedom fighter does it? It doesn't negate from the fact in the slightest.

It's really just a revolutionary tax. That's nothing new.

Last time I checked freedom fighters do not extort, bully and degrade the people they are trying to "save". :roll:

Even the Irish government hated the IRA.





That doesn't stop you being a freedom fighter. The British army bombed many homes, never mind hotels. It didnt stop the fact they were fighting for freedom from Nazi domination, the same is true of the Irish freedom fighters.
Freedom fighter = person fighting the government for a political cause
Terrorist = person killing innocent people for a politcal cause

Was there no innocent people in a hotel or a fast food restaurant? What was the military capability of these hotels and restaurants?


Two other fine freedom fighting organisations who all lovers of freedom respect and admire.

Then you would respect and admire the people of Northern Ireland choosing THEIR OWN destiny. Is that not freedom?


The reality was even worse than raping and pillaging. it was a racist, bigoted state of borderline apartheid proportions with 2 class of citizens.

Housing and employment. Or did the catholic population did not get the vote and representation in government?
I'm not saying the unionist population were innocent in Northern Ireland. But we did not treat catholics worst that what happened to blacks in South Africa or America for that matter. But we have mended our ways and everyone is equal in Northern Ireland now.
Before the troubles started catholics and protestants mixed freely. My parents dated catholics freely as I have done. Take you exaggerated claims elsewhere.
 
Why the edit Castro?

You mentioned the red hand, then you edited it out. Why? Is it because your realised it is actually a celtic symbol? :roll:

Ha. Your ignorance know no bounds. You even assume who my social circles are. I am a Northern Irish uninoist and most of my friends in Belfast are catholics, some are Sinn Fein voters. I don't care what their political affiliation is, i just care if they are good mates or not.

Quite alot of us as moved on from bitter petty tribal rivalries in Northern Ireland while you are stuck in that bitter time warp away in Glasgow :2wave:.

If you love the people like you in Northen Ireland you are MORE than welcome to them in Glasgow and take the loyalists with you while you are it.

How is it ignorance. It would be ignorance if i hadnt noticed. I caught the red hand out of the corner of my eye before i typed. Once I'd posted I had a proper look and so edited. That isn't ignorance, just sloppyness.
 
Im not so sure about that, its bad, but at least catholic children never got abuse from supposed adults just for trying to go to school. I won't deny that it is romanticized though, it definitely is, but not by everyone. For me I view it in a wider context of international revolutionary activity and so don't hold it as one of the more important conflicts in the way that most do. I personally have more interest in the struggles of the 26th July Movement and the PLO and I simply see the IRA as one small part of the war of the exploited against the exploiters.

My point with this thread wasn't even to get into a debate about Ireland, that is why I put it in sport. My point was the farce that football is becoming. Celtic are losing everything that attracts people to the club, even Rangers are going the same way, all be it much slower. There is seems to be an agenda to rip everything of football that made it fun. Soon there will be no reason to follow a team as there will be nothing to identify with.

The thing that your missing here is that the very reason the Sien Fein/I.R.A resorted to violence is that it couldnt persuade people to vote for its policies. Instead it opted for coersion. Isnt that kinda antithetical to being a freedom fighter?
 
Im not so sure about that, its bad, but at least catholic children never got abuse from supposed adults just for trying to go to school. I won't deny that it is romanticized though, it definitely is, but not by everyone. For me I view it in a wider context of international revolutionary activity and so don't hold it as one of the more important conflicts in the way that most do. I personally have more interest in the struggles of the 26th July Movement and the PLO and I simply see the IRA as one small part of the war of the exploited against the exploiters.

My point with this thread wasn't even to get into a debate about Ireland, that is why I put it in sport. My point was the farce that football is becoming. Celtic are losing everything that attracts people to the club, even Rangers are going the same way, all be it much slower. There is seems to be an agenda to rip everything of football that made it fun. Soon there will be no reason to follow a team as there will be nothing to identify with.

Surely Celtic has something better to identify itself better than the IRA. You would best to identify with your Celtic roots rather than a questionable oraganisation. Likewise I am offended by union jacks with UVF and UDA on them. Believe it or not I always cheer Celtic on in Europeans games, always like to see a Scottish team do well.

I have been to two Rangers games in my life and I was disgusted and appalled by the bigotry and thuggery of the Rangers fans. My mate who is a celtic fan said the that some celtic fans are exactly like that as well.

If a team has to identify itself with hate and bigotry of an other side then its a piss poor team imo.
 
How is it ignorance. It would be ignorance if i hadnt noticed. I caught the red hand out of the corner of my eye before i typed. Once I'd posted I had a proper look and so edited. That isn't ignorance, just sloppyness.

That wasn't what I was claiming ignorance to. The fact is you assume my social circle when you don't even know me, that is ignorance or maybe its called something else im not sure lol.
 
That wasn't what I was claiming ignorance to. The fact is you assume my social circle when you don't even know me, that is ignorance or maybe its called something else im not sure lol.

It's called an educated guess. Had the picture been what i thought it was, there would have been a reasonable chance you would have been how i imagined. most people I have encountered that way inclined do move in a way i described.
 
Surely Celtic has something better to identify itself better than the IRA. You would best to identify with your Celtic roots rather than a questionable oraganisation.


The IRa is one part of it, a significant one though.

Likewise I am offended by union jacks with UVF and UDA on them. Believe it or not I always cheer Celtic on in Europeans games, always like to see a Scottish team do well.

I wouldn't like seeing uit, but I'm all for them being allowed to do it. Whether they write UDA or whatever on it doesn't make much difference to me, in this context it all represents the same thing (that whoever is flyingj it supports racism, bigotry, imperialism and domination), I am repulsed every time I see the flag and I have to see it pretty much everyday, but that is life, we are exposed to things we don't like, it doesn't do any harm unless you let it.

I have been to two Rangers games in my life and I was disgusted and appalled by the bigotry and thuggery of the Rangers fans. My mate who is a celtic fan said the that some celtic fans are exactly like that as well.

There are some, but not nearly as many. The difference between the supporters is summed up by the fact most football violence is by Rangers fans, not Celtic and more importantly, both teams got to the UEFA cup final, the Celtic fans won an award and the Rangers fans started a riot.

They hate us because they're bigots and we hate them because they're bigots. It's a lot more one sided than is made out.

If a team has to identify itself with hate and bigotry of an other side then its a piss poor team imo.

I agree, that's why it so good to support Celtic who traditionally stand against bigotry and imperialism and for equality and liberation.
 
For Ireland to be divided now is an artificial situation as I think Joe said created by Imperialism. In time Ireland will have no divide.

Wouldn't hold my breath, a study done a few years ago say that 25% catholics are FOR the union with Britain, 25% don't know and 50% actually wanting a United Ireland.

1st rule of social politics, when the people are happy they do not want to change. With peace making things better in NI, the union is stronger than ever. The loyalist paramilitries are finally realising this and are starting to disarm. They wouldn't be disarming if a United Ireland was an inevitability.


I believe that Ireland was first colonised by the English not Great Britain.

This particular situation was caused by the deliberate colonisation of Ulster of Scot's Presbyterians and English Protestants after confiscating the land from the Gaels. For the Scots who went, Scotland was well shot of them. Clearly they felt a need to be part of GB to hold on to their spoils.

My point is simply that here I agree with Joe in that the situation is one which was created by imperialism the consequences of which we still have today. I am therefore agreeing with you that what we are experiencing still today in Northern Ireland is the result of Great wrongs caused by imperialism;)
I would agree that Northern Ireland is a relic of imperialism. However it was created by the will of the people of the North as well. The partition was a comprimise or else the island would have exploded into civil war between North and South - and Britain after WW1 couldn't be arsed with that.

However Northern Ireland now is democratic, equal and with its destiny in its own hands. It is not occupied by imperialism. No sane person could argue that.



How much is Ulster part of Great Britain. It does not even have the same political parties as the rest of Great Britain. How can Ulster operate politically as part of Great Britain. It is a weird anomaly, waiting for people to grow up and rejoin Ireland. It will do that when it stops bringing its children up to believe they are first and foremost Catholic or Protestant, then no doubt most people will start to give up religion as they are doing in the South and the people of all of Ireland can at last get on with making a good life for all her people, past issues forgotten. Such a situation was certainly not helped by giving protestants unfair privileges over Catholics at the time of the divide.

The Ulster Unionist Party will merged with the Conservative Party within the decade, Liberal Dems will merge with Alliance as well. The Labour Party just started up in Northern Ireland again last year. Trust me in time, the major British parties will have seats here and nothing would please me more than the demise of the DUP. Fianna Fail from the south are coming up as well soon to challenge Sinn Fein. Good times.

So we are all juvenile waiting to "grow up" and join Ireland. :roll:

How will a United Ireland make the people of Northern Irelands lifes any better? Their goods and servies are far more expensive than ours. In In fact we have had floods of people from the Republic in the summer to spend their holiday here and shop here and pump up their car here.


My point there was that you saying we should go by democracy was somewhat ironic as it was the Ulster protestants who were refusing to go with the democratic will of the people of Ireland which caused this split.

It was partition or civil war. Partition was chosen. War was averted. Unfortunately the Republic decided to have a civil war without us. :doh
 
The IRa is one part of it, a significant one though.



I wouldn't like seeing uit, but I'm all for them being allowed to do it. Whether they write UDA or whatever on it doesn't make much difference to me, in this context it all represents the same thing (that whoever is flyingj it supports racism, bigotry, imperialism and domination), I am repulsed every time I see the flag and I have to see it pretty much everyday, but that is life, we are exposed to things we don't like, it doesn't do any harm unless you let it.



There are some, but not nearly as many. The difference between the supporters is summed up by the fact most football violence is by Rangers fans, not Celtic and more importantly, both teams got to the UEFA cup final, the Celtic fans won an award and the Rangers fans started a riot.

They hate us because they're bigots and we hate them because they're bigots. It's a lot more one sided than is made out.



I agree, that's why it so good to support Celtic who traditionally stand against bigotry and imperialism and for equality and liberation.

I will sum up the above with one smilie :roll:.

Its not our fault its theirs. The blame game is always easy to play in tribal warfare.
 
I will sum up the above with one smilie :roll:.

Its not our fault its theirs. The blame game is always easy to play in tribal warfare.

Only in this case the facts support that conclusion. Sometimes there really is one side to blame, the Nazi's were too blame, the white government were wrong in SA. Sometimes it just is that clear cut.

The fact the BNP leaflet Glasgow city center on Rangers home games pretty much sums it up.
 
Wouldn't hold my breath, a study done a few years ago say that 25% catholics are FOR the union with Britain, 25% don't know and 50% actually wanting a United Ireland.

1st rule of social politics, when the people are happy they do not want to change. With peace making things better in NI, the union is stronger than ever. The loyalist paramilitries are finally realising this and are starting to disarm. They wouldn't be disarming if a United Ireland was an inevitability.



I would agree that Northern Ireland is a relic of imperialism. However it was created by the will of the people of the North as well. The partition was a comprimise or else the island would have exploded into civil war between North and South - and Britain after WW1 couldn't be arsed with that.

However Northern Ireland now is democratic, equal and with its destiny in its own hands. It is not occupied by imperialism. No sane person could argue that.





The Ulster Unionist Party will merged with the Conservative Party within the decade, Liberal Dems will merge with Alliance as well. The Labour Party just started up in Northern Ireland again last year. Trust me in time, the major British parties will have seats here and nothing would please me more than the demise of the DUP. Fianna Fail from the south are coming up as well soon to challenge Sinn Fein. Good times.

So we are all juvenile waiting to "grow up" and join Ireland. :roll:

How will a United Ireland make the people of Northern Irelands lifes any better? Their goods and servies are far more expensive than ours. In In fact we have had floods of people from the Republic in the summer to spend their holiday here and shop here and pump up their car here.




It was partition or civil war. Partition was chosen. War was averted. Unfortunately the Republic decided to have a civil war without us. :doh


Great post, Garza.

Regardless of how people feel about past situations, the current situation is such that the violent relics of the past need to just go away.
 
Wouldn't hold my breath, a study done a few years ago say that 25% catholics are FOR the union with Britain, 25% don't know and 50% actually wanting a United Ireland.

1st rule of social politics, when the people are happy they do not want to change. With peace making things better in NI, the union is stronger than ever. The loyalist paramilitries are finally realising this and are starting to disarm. They wouldn't be disarming if a United Ireland was an inevitability.

People's choices will be different dependant on many things – not least being a desire for peace. In time people will feel free to make choices unafraid that this could lead to further violence.

I said the consequence of which we still have today. The consequences of that is that we have a divided Ireland, rather than a Unified one.

That is a direct result of imperialism and time will still tell how that pans out.

Further if what I have heard is true there is still the danger of more conflict due to children still being brought up in separate schools so therefore for many, even if not yourself, not growing up to recognise both Catholics and Protestants as potential friends.




The Ulster Unionist Party will merged with the Conservative Party within the decade, Liberal Dems will merge with Alliance as well. The Labour Party just started up in Northern Ireland again last year. Trust me in time, the major British parties will have seats here and nothing would please me more than the demise of the DUP. Fianna Fail from the south are coming up as well soon to challenge Sinn Fein. Good times.

You possible are becoming more like the Politics of the rest of the UK but this is a very recent happening. We will see how that develops. You admitted that you used to treat Catholics like the South Africans and the USA used to treat black people. If you read the article I left you will find that the author suggest that Britain herself believed that in time the North would join the south. Britain herself knew that Ireland was one country.

So we are all juvenile waiting to "grow up" and join Ireland. :roll:

You are being disingenuous in not stating that I put growing up as being about recognising each other as people not just Catholic and Protestant. You hopefully are progressing in that direction.

How will a United Ireland make the people of Northern Irelands lifes any better? Their goods and servies are far more expensive than ours. In In fact we have had floods of people from the Republic in the summer to spend their holiday here and shop here and pump up their car here.

We are going through a recession. Ireland is Ireland. I believe it will eventually become unified.

Do you know of any other place in the world where people would care so little about their own country that they would like to be divided from the rest of it for increased wealth. Reality is that your mindset is affected by your beginnings in imperialism. You were born of ancestors who never became Irish. You may not know whether you are of Scottish or English descent, but you are a person who belongs to Great Britain, sent by Great Britain and still a part of Great Britain. How has the effect of imperialism gone? It caused Ireland to become divided.


It was partition or civil war. Partition was chosen. War was averted. Unfortunately the Republic decided to have a civil war without us. :doh

Yes, to the Loyalists it was partition or civil war. Although living in Ireland they did not consider themselves Irish. Always remembering their roots in England or Scotland or as they intermarried, in Great Britain, not Ireland. This division did indeed cause civil war and resulted in Catholics in the North being second class citizens something which has only recently changed.

This all comes from the descendants of the people brought into Ireland by imperialism. Therefore I still say the situation in Ireland was brought in by imperialism and is still there because of the effect of that. Ireland is one country unnaturally divided by this.

Things will progress in their own time.
 
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