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Five Myths about healthcare and the rest of the world.

Stewart

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A good article outlining some of the misconceptions about the 'socialized' medicine in the rest of the world.

By T.R. Reid -- Five Myths About Health Care in the Rest of the World

In some ways, health care is less "socialized" overseas than in the United States. Almost all Americans sign up for government insurance (Medicare) at age 65. In Germany, Switzerland and the Netherlands, seniors stick with private insurance plans for life. Meanwhile, the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs is one of the planet's purest examples of government-run health care.

But studies by the Commonwealth Fund and others report that many nations -- Germany, Britain, Austria -- outperform the United States on measures such as waiting times for appointments and for elective surgeries.
U.S. health insurance companies have the highest administrative costs in the world; they spend roughly 20 cents of every dollar for nonmedical costs, such as paperwork, reviewing claims and marketing. France's health insurance industry, in contrast, covers everybody and spends about 4 percent on administration. Canada's universal insurance system, run by government bureaucrats, spends 6 percent on administration. In Taiwan, a leaner version of the Canadian model has administrative costs of 1.5 percent; one year, this figure ballooned to 2 percent, and the opposition parties savaged the government for wasting money.
 
I can attest to much all of what the article says about Japanese healthcare. I was treated extremely well and extremely quickly, once I worked out the particular quirks. And it was dirt cheap, too.

In total, there are a lot of things wrong with American healthcare, mainly stemming from its for-profit nature. And it is demonstrably worse. We are in worse health than most of the other industrial nations, and we die sooner. We spend more for less benefit. Why?
 
I can attest to much all of what the article says about Japanese healthcare. I was treated extremely well and extremely quickly, once I worked out the particular quirks. And it was dirt cheap, too.

In total, there are a lot of things wrong with American healthcare, mainly stemming from its for-profit nature. And it is demonstrably worse. We are in worse health than most of the other industrial nations, and we die sooner. We spend more for less benefit. Why?

American mythology.

:coffeepap
 
Americans love to put ideology above pragmatics.
 
I'm trying to figure out how much health care we actually consume. Not just how much more we spend on it.

If our per capita health expenditures are twice many other other developed countries, but (let's say for sake of example) we also consume twice as much actual health care as those countries, then the problem is overconsumption of health care and/or worse health. And that's our problem, not government's or health insurance companies. This is what makes international comparisons really difficult. You can point to the longer life expectancy, but it's very difficult to tease apart what is health care's fault and what is just a factor of us being the fattest and most cancerous developed nation on Earth.

It turns out we buy a lot of prescription drugs. Almost no one consumes as many prescriptions as we do. And the prices of on-patent drugs are higher here than everywhere except Japan. Our generics are priced closely to elsewhere. But between our greater consumption and higher on-patent prices, we spend a total of about twice as much as most other countries for pills. We also have a much higher rate of performing coronary revascularization procedures. Our hospital visits, while relatively shorter, are probably more intensive. We have a high number of staff per acute care hospital bed (second only to UK). And our doctors are paid very high salaries, and have very high educational loans.

Concerning to me is that despite these high costs, liberals are pushing for greater access first, and thinking about the cost of care second (if at all). And why this concerns me is that, even though we visit the outpatient doctor less often than a lot of other countries, we spend almost three times the average on outpatient care. We spend twice the amount as the #2 country in outpatient care. Outpatient care is the main level of care to which uninsured people do not have access, and yet the left wants to open up these doors and let people who have no money come on in and start racking up these expenditures in addition to the hospital care they can get whenever they have an acute medical concern. Access doesn't make health care cheaper, and it doesn't reduce the overall expenditures on health care. It adds to the amount we're already spending. And we're already #2 in expenditures on preventive care, so don't tell me that visiting the doctor at the outpatient clinic for preventive checkups is going to somehow magically make all the numbers go down.

If administrative costs in private health insurance are so stupidly high, then eliminate the anti-trust exemption. Don't we still have that? Who could be surprised about a price hike in a monopoly scenario? I know Democrats introduced the bill to end this, but why didn't we start there? Why did we mandate our citizens buy a product from companies that we allow to have monopolies over it? Obama said he supports ending the anti-trust exemption, but what he did was invite health insurance industry lobbyists to craft what should happen with all of this. So not surprisingly they're still exempt from anti-trust laws and they also have convinced Congress to force citizens to keep purchasing its product, even though it contributes to the administrative cost of health insurance that exceeds other nations by a factor of SEVEN. So obviously Obama and Congress went about that completely backwards.

Source for some of the above.
 
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I can attest to much all of what the article says about Japanese healthcare. I was treated extremely well and extremely quickly, once I worked out the particular quirks. And it was dirt cheap, too.

Japanese healthcare is a really interesting study. Despite it looks it's very good, and very cheap. Of course, it would never work for America, there's just too much of an ideological difference. Doesn't mean we can't learn form their situation and how they have done many different things.

In total, there are a lot of things wrong with American healthcare, mainly stemming from its for-profit nature. And it is demonstrably worse. We are in worse health than most of the other industrial nations, and we die sooner. We spend more for less benefit. Why?[/QUOTE]

This is the major thing I disagree with Reid over, for profit isn't the scourge of all evil and the responsibility for the poor performance of healthcare. Should we stop doctors from charging patients because they are "making money off the sick"?
However reforming the convoluted payment system that has been created in the interest of making profits, will help to improve healthcare performance, this much is true.
 
I am very curious about this issue. As with most of the arguements, and the reasons I hear for them. I am willing to believe. We spend to much on "Non-medical" costs?
*Is malpractice insurance & settlement payments in this? I don't know how other countries handle mal-practice suits, but in america it seems someone is getting awarded a couple million for this or that. It's got to have an effect.
*Are we having more services performed because of fear? on the patient side or the doctor side?

Why can't insurance companies sell from one state to another? I can't imagine states being so dramatically different in requirements that this is impossible. Maybe in all states but say New York and California want the same things covered. I don't know, just spit-balling here.

Can anyone help make sense of the numbers? (And I'm sorry, I have a hard time believeing it's only because of greedy coporate executives; though I wont discount it on individual occasions)
 
I am very curious about this issue. As with most of the arguements, and the reasons I hear for them. I am willing to believe. We spend to much on "Non-medical" costs?
*Is malpractice insurance & settlement payments in this? I don't know how other countries handle mal-practice suits, but in america it seems someone is getting awarded a couple million for this or that. It's got to have an effect.
*Are we having more services performed because of fear? on the patient side or the doctor side?

Why can't insurance companies sell from one state to another? I can't imagine states being so dramatically different in requirements that this is impossible. Maybe in all states but say New York and California want the same things covered. I don't know, just spit-balling here.

Can anyone help make sense of the numbers? (And I'm sorry, I have a hard time believeing it's only because of greedy coporate executives; though I wont discount it on individual occasions)

Malpractice is part of it, but the far larger part of "non-medical" costs is administrative. A large hospital has to have an entire department of people devoted to dealing with insurance companies.

As for across-state lines selling, it allegedly helps with competition but in reality you'd end up with the same situation as with credit cards. Start checking which states your credit card offers come from. It's all the same two or three states, the ones with lax regulations on fees, interest rates, etc.
 
I'm trying to figure out how much health care we actually consume. Not just how much more we spend on it.

If our per capita health expenditures are twice many other other developed countries, but (let's say for sake of example) we also consume twice as much actual health care as those countries, then the problem is overconsumption of health care and/or worse health. And that's our problem, not government's or health insurance companies. This is what makes international comparisons really difficult. You can point to the longer life expectancy, but it's very difficult to tease apart what is health care's fault and what is just a factor of us being the fattest and most cancerous developed nation on Earth.

It turns out we buy a lot of prescription drugs. Almost no one consumes as many prescriptions as we do. And the prices of on-patent drugs are higher here than everywhere except Japan. Our generics are priced closely to elsewhere. But between our greater consumption and higher on-patent prices, we spend a total of about twice as much as most other countries for pills. We also have a much higher rate of performing coronary revascularization procedures. Our hospital visits, while relatively shorter, are probably more intensive. We have a high number of staff per acute care hospital bed (second only to UK). And our doctors are paid very high salaries, and have very high educational loans.

Concerning to me is that despite these high costs, liberals are pushing for greater access first, and thinking about the cost of care second (if at all). And why this concerns me is that, even though we visit the outpatient doctor less often than a lot of other countries, we spend almost three times the average on outpatient care. We spend twice the amount as the #2 country in outpatient care. Outpatient care is the main level of care to which uninsured people do not have access, and yet the left wants to open up these doors and let people who have no money come on in and start racking up these expenditures in addition to the hospital care they can get whenever they have an acute medical concern. Access doesn't make health care cheaper, and it doesn't reduce the overall expenditures on health care. It adds to the amount we're already spending. And we're already #2 in expenditures on preventive care, so don't tell me that visiting the doctor at the outpatient clinic for preventive checkups is going to somehow magically make all the numbers go down.

If administrative costs in private health insurance are so stupidly high, then eliminate the anti-trust exemption. Don't we still have that? Who could be surprised about a price hike in a monopoly scenario? I know Democrats introduced the bill to end this, but why didn't we start there? Why did we mandate our citizens buy a product from companies that we allow to have monopolies over it? Obama said he supports ending the anti-trust exemption, but what he did was invite health insurance industry lobbyists to craft what should happen with all of this. So not surprisingly they're still exempt from anti-trust laws and they also have convinced Congress to force citizens to keep purchasing its product, even though it contributes to the administrative cost of health insurance that exceeds other nations by a factor of SEVEN. So obviously Obama and Congress went about that completely backwards.

Source for some of the above.

Cost is but one half of the problem. It really is a serious problem that our access is as poor as it is. First, we shoudl take care of access. Then cost. That said, UHC is largely cheaper. And having it removes it from the work place, which is good for business. It takes care of largely what we need and does so for less money.

As for negotiation, the greater the need for someone (demand) the more those selling can charge. Unlike a widget, the expertise, the skill, the techonolgy cannot be found anywhere. And for most, the cost will always be prohibitive. The nations over all health will get even worse without some system of paying for this care.
 
Malpractice is part of it, but the far larger part of "non-medical" costs is administrative. A large hospital has to have an entire department of people devoted to dealing with insurance companies.

As for across-state lines selling, it allegedly helps with competition but in reality you'd end up with the same situation as with credit cards. Start checking which states your credit card offers come from. It's all the same two or three states, the ones with lax regulations on fees, interest rates, etc.

Medicare requirements create more administrative cost and paper than any insurance company creates. It may be an attempt to cut the fraud curve, but IMO Medicare and Medicaid need serious reform, along with repealing Obamacare and starting over.
 
A large hospital has to have an entire department of people devoted to dealing with insurance companies.

While I was doing research on health care a few years back, I ran across an article about a health care official from another country (forget which) that was touring a facility in the midwest and when they got to the accounting/billing department with a whole floor of employees, he remarked that a facility this size in his country would have about 10 people.
 
Does the WaPo fact check oped pieces, or is that left to the columnist?
 
BWG, T.R Reid is pretty good with his own fact checking. However I would invite you to point out any flaws in his articles. Simply alluding to errors, without proving any of them is in my opionon disengenous and underhand.
As someone who follows Healthcare performance/reform closely, i beleive that what he says is independently supported by other statistics.
 
BWG, T.R Reid is pretty good with his own fact checking. However I would invite you to point out any flaws in his articles. Simply alluding to errors, without proving any of them is in my opionon disengenous and underhand.
As someone who follows Healthcare performance/reform closely, i beleive that what he says is independently supported by other statistics.
 
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I am very curious about this issue. As with most of the arguements, and the reasons I hear for them. I am willing to believe. We spend to much on "Non-medical" costs? *Is malpractice insurance & settlement payments in this? I don't know how other countries handle mal-practice suits, but in america it seems someone is getting awarded a couple million for this or that. It's got to have an effect.*Are we having more services performed because of fear? on the patient side or the doctor side?Why can't insurance companies sell from one state to another? I can't imagine states being so dramatically different in requirements that this is impossible. Maybe in all states but say New York and California want the same things covered. I don't know, just spit-balling here.Can anyone help make sense of the numbers? (And I'm sorry, I have a hard time believeing it's only because of greedy coporate executives; though I wont discount it on individual occasions)
State rules and regulations vary, A LOT. I don't actually believe that there is a law that prohibits insurance companies selling across state lines, but there are laws in every state that require that all policies sold withing their state have to conform to that states laws. Thus, for practical reasons, a citizen of one state can only purchase a policy which is developed just for their state, although it is possible that many states require each insurance seller to have a physical home office in their state so that the insurance companies can be held accountable (sued) under state law. Now if a particular insurance company doesn't want to develop 50 different policies, one for each state, and have headquarters in each state, then that is most certainly their right. In otherwords, we shouldn't be trying to FORCE insurance companies to do business in a manner which they choose not to do. It always amazes me that most conservatives tend to be states rights advocates, until we start talking about specific legislation, at which time they almost always suggest that our laws should be standardized under federal legislation. People who suggest selling insurance between states are essentially suggesting that states should not be allowed to have their own individual laws. I'm not sure if conservatives just enjoy being hypocrits, or if they are just stupid.
 
Cost is but one half of the problem. It really is a serious problem that our access is as poor as it is. First, we shoudl take care of access. Then cost.

I know your side thinks this. Hence why I wrote this paragraph, and this time I'm going to add some emphasis:

Me said:
Concerning to me is that despite these high costs, liberals are pushing for greater access first, and thinking about the cost of care second (if at all). And why this concerns me is that, even though we visit the outpatient doctor less often than a lot of other countries, we spend almost three times the average on outpatient care. We spend twice the amount as the #2 country in outpatient care. Outpatient care is the main level of care to which uninsured people do not have access, and yet the left wants to open up these doors and let people who have no money come on in and start racking up these expenditures in addition to the hospital care they can get whenever they have an acute medical concern. Access doesn't make health care cheaper, and it doesn't reduce the overall expenditures on health care. It adds to the amount we're already spending. And we're already #2 in expenditures on preventive care, so don't tell me that visiting the doctor at the outpatient clinic for preventive checkups is going to somehow magically make all the numbers go down.

There's already access. The only real thing we lack in terms of access is outpatient care for folks with too little money. Liberal schemes don't care if they have too little money, and liberal schemes don't care that we spend THREE TIMES THE AVERAGE for outpatient care, and TWICE the amount as the #2 spender on outpatient care (Sweden). Opening up access first, and thinking about the outrageous cost (of the thing to which you're opening up access) later means you're throwing fuel on the fire before thinking about how to put it out.
 
I know your side thinks this. Hence why I wrote this paragraph, and this time I'm going to add some emphasis:



There's already access. The only real thing we lack in terms of access is outpatient care for folks with too little money. Liberal schemes don't care if they have too little money, and liberal schemes don't care that we spend THREE TIMES THE AVERAGE for outpatient care, and TWICE the amount as the #2 spender on outpatient care (Sweden). Opening up access first, and thinking about the outrageous cost (of the thing to which you're opening up access) later means you're throwing fuel on the fire before thinking about how to put it out.

No, for all there is not access. Yes, some abuse health care. There is no doubt about that. Nor did I say anything about the numbers going down. Part of this is due to the market. We carter to excess in a lot of ways. Much of what is seen as beauacracy came about in response to actions by the market. For example, doctors used to own x-ray machines or pharmacies, so they order those things for everyone. Laws have helped contain that some. But abusing health care doesn't mean we have access for all, not by half.

The fact is we have no rational system. We have a cluster, combining all kinds of things. There are all kinds of different policies, there are differening federal and state programs, and mixture of envolvement from both, and some simply outside any real care. For some, they get excellent care. Others next to none until there is an emergency. And everything inbetween. It is this massive blob of forms for differing coverages and exceptions and ruels that help make it so expensive beyond our abuse.

And yes, we as a people have to get over thinking more is better. Sometimes we actually do more harm than good being too aggressive. Seeking some sense of balance wouldn't be a bad thing.

So, when I think of access being improved, I think of doing something like UHC so as we actually have a system. Having a system alone would help reduce costs. But access should be the goal #1, cost #2.
 
Medicare requirements create more administrative cost and paper than any insurance company creates. It may be an attempt to cut the fraud curve, but IMO Medicare and Medicaid need serious reform, along with repealing Obamacare and starting over.

Another myth promoted by the American right... it is in fact much cheaper administratively. If you look at the 3 countries with private based health insurance.. Swizterland, US and Chile, the administrative costs are 10+%.
 
BWG, T.R Reid is pretty good with his own fact checking. However I would invite you to point out any flaws in his articles. Simply alluding to errors, without proving any of them is in my opionon disengenous and underhand.
As someone who follows Healthcare performance/reform closely, i beleive that what he says is independently supported by other statistics.
His comments about MRIs in Japan are almost the opposite of what I heard on NPR, and since I never heard of the guy, it seemed like a valid question.
 
BWG, T.R Reid is pretty good with his own fact checking. However I would invite you to point out any flaws in his articles. Simply alluding to errors, without proving any of them is in my opionon disengenous and underhand.
As someone who follows Healthcare performance/reform closely, i beleive that what he says is independently supported by other statistics.

Huh???

BWG said:
While I was doing research on health care a few years back, I ran across an article about a health care official from another country (forget which) that was touring a facility in the midwest and when they got to the accounting/billing department with a whole floor of employees, he remarked that a facility this size in his country would have about 10 people.

T.R. Reid's article seems to back up what the foreign health care official was saying.

T.R. Reid Article said:
U.S. health insurance companies have the highest administrative costs in the world; they spend roughly 20 cents of every dollar for nonmedical costs, such as paperwork, reviewing claims and marketing. France's health insurance industry, in contrast, covers everybody and spends about 4 percent on administration. Canada's universal insurance system, run by government bureaucrats, spends 6 percent on administration. In Taiwan, a leaner version of the Canadian model has administrative costs of 1.5 percent; one year, this figure ballooned to 2 percent, and the opposition parties savaged the government for wasting money.

Our system of health care insurance is a hodgepodge mess and it takes such an army of employees to sort through all the different policies in how they cover, what they cover, how much they cover, etc. etc. that drives up administration costs.
 
Apologies BWG, guess I go the two three lettered posters mixed up, sorry.
 
His comments about MRIs in Japan are almost the opposite of what I heard on NPR, and since I never heard of the guy, it seemed like a valid question.
What Exactly did you hear on NPR.

T.R Reis one of the better journalists who write about health reform. He's written one or two books, has done documentaries for PBS and he's also media fellow for Kaiser Family.

As for MRIs, in the rest of the world. They are pretty cheap relative to the USA. I ink here total reimbursment is around $400 tops. iirc, the Japenese (ever the masters of thrift) use a model that is build by Mitsubishi, that is really cheap. But it's weird because as he wires, they have buggerall waiting times and rarely make Appoitments.
 
Great! Great article! Thanks for the share.
 
I'll tell you what's wrong with America's healthcare system; the outrageous costs for providing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Our pediatrician admitted our infant son to the hospital for overnight observation and a chest x-ray because he tested positive for RSV (what would usually be a mild case of bronchitis in an adult).

His toe was hooked up to a blood oxygen monitor, and he received one chest x-ray. The hospital performed no other diagnostic services, and no drugs or other therapies were administered for the overnight stay.

The cost? $2000. Our part was $780. For nothing. He got over his coughing a few days later.

For that money I could have gotten the chest x-ray at an outpatient clinic, rented a hotel room if we really just wanted to stay in another room over night, and purchased our own hospital grade blood oxygen monitor for less money.
 
I'll tell you what's wrong with America's healthcare system; the outrageous costs for providing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Our pediatrician admitted our infant son to the hospital for overnight observation and a chest x-ray because he tested positive for RSV (what would usually be a mild case of bronchitis in an adult).

His toe was hooked up to a blood oxygen monitor, and he received one chest x-ray. The hospital performed no other diagnostic services, and no drugs or other therapies were administered for the overnight stay.

The cost? $2000. Our part was $780. For nothing. He got over his coughing a few days later.

For that money I could have gotten the chest x-ray at an outpatient clinic, rented a hotel room if we really just wanted to stay in another room over night, and purchased our own hospital grade blood oxygen monitor for less money.

Its the free market baby! Privatization baby!
 
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