Father asks school to bar unvaccinated children.

[Phoneguy78]

I'm not sure why, but posters who support the father in this case seem to have no ability to answer the simple question the OP poses. I've seen all the statistics and recommendations and advice etc. etc. etc. It's irrelevant in the case outlined in the OP.

The question remains - should this father's demand to make a political point with his son's illness be accepted when it adversely impacts the legal rights of other children in this jurisdiction?

I see your point to an extent, but my question to you is, the school is already telling parents not to send certain foods to school because of a students nut allergy, so if the school is already accommodating one student (and in effect blocking what other children can eat at school) why shouldnt they be required to accommodate all situations at this campus where the actions of other students could affect the health of the one child?

 

[whysoserious]

No, you didn't answer the question specifically related to the issue outlined in the OP. You answered your own generic take on the pros and cons of vaccination in the population. And what evidence do you have that less than 95% of the population of this particular school hasn't been immunized. If you have that information, I'd like to see it because I haven't seen it so far. If we're talking about 4 children in a school of 500 who haven't been immunized, that's more than 99% immunized. Under the statistics you promote, why would a less than 1% failure to immunize rate jeopardize your herd immunity argument?

I'm talking as a general rule, not under this one particular school (why are you just making up random numbers?). In my opinion, if you can get your kid vaccinated and you don't:

1) You're an asshole
2) You're endangering your kid
3) You're endangering other kids
4) The kid should not be able to attend public school without wearing a mask

 

[CriticalThought]

In a word (two actually):

Home School

Sounds fine...as long as all the parents who are not vaccinating their kids pay for it. If the kid is going to be deprived of all the opportunity and socialization that his local public school provides because of the willful ignorance of other parents then they should pay for it.

 

[Ikari]

Vaccination Coverage Among Children in Kindergarten — United States, 2013–14 School Year
Rates of Coverage in 2013


Rates of Exemption


In the states that took the stat, the non-medical exemption rate was ~2%!!! Also, 1/4 of the non-medical exemptions may be because of simple laziness:



Anyway, from the stats above, the requirement:
Median local requirement for DTaP vaccination coverage was 95.0%

Wasn't met:
Among the 49 states and DC that reported 2013–14 school vaccination coverage, median 2-dose MMR vaccination coverage was 94.7%

That 2% bump of non-medical exemptions would be huge, in this case.

*Edit: I originally made fun of Mississippi, but I read it wrong. Mississippi had great stats.

Wow. Colorado should all be dead from the measles, whooping cough, and a plethora of other diseases. How are they doing, BTW? Any outbreaks?

 

[CanadaJohn]

I see your point to an extent, but my question to you is, the school is already telling parents not to send certain foods to school because of a students nut allergy, so if the school is already accommodating one student (and in effect blocking what other children can eat at school) why shouldnt they be required to accommodate all situations at this campus where the actions of other students could affect the health of the one child?

The two issues have different legal positions that support the action.

1. In the case of anaphylaxis and anaphylaxic shock afflicting some students, schools are perfectly within their legal rights to dictate what a child may bring onto the premises of a school. It's similar to a ban on guns or knives or phones or whatever else a child may want to bring to school. A child also doesn't have a right to bring and or eat food on school property. It is a convenience offered to parents. As such, the school can dictate such limits as part of safety guidelines.

2. In the case in this issue, the school is being asked to bar students from attending the school entirely if they haven't been immunized. Children have a legal right to attend public school. In fact, in most jurisdictions if not all, children are legally required to attend school once they reach a certain age. If the father at issue had requested that his son be quarantined from any students who haven't been immunized, that would be something that is more reasonable and supportable and within the school's legal rights to accommodate, provided there's a legal right to know which students are or are not immunized.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Good for him - I support him in his endeavours. However, his request should be denied by his son's school and he should be advised to take it up with those who actually make the laws in his jurisdiction.

I can support lots of attempts to change laws that are either outdated or ill advised. I don't, however, support individuals creating new laws and new rights on their own. You don't like the laws as they exist in this jurisdiction so you want the school to ignore the other student's rights in order to further the father's political statement. I'm sick of schools and educators being overly political. I hope the school denies his request and accommodates his child as best they can without adversely impacting on the rights of other children.

On this I largely agree with you.

 

[CanadaJohn]

I'm talking as a general rule, not under this one particular school (why are you just making up random numbers?). In my opinion, if you can get your kid vaccinated and you don't:

1) You're an asshole
2) You're endangering your kid
3) You're endangering other kids
4) The kid should not be able to attend public school without wearing a mask

Wonderful - I don't disagree - but emotions don't dictate public policy, the law does. Your opinion related to the assholery of parents exercising their legal rights not to immunize their child is irrelevant to the question.

If this OP was a general discussion about the pros and cons of immunization, I'd be in your corner. Unfortunately, for your argument, that's not what the OP is about.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

well I'll be sure to tell them not to share any dirty needles with their Asian friends, then. :roll:

Or toothbrushes, or don't get any blood on them should their friends skin a knee or get a nosebleed, or share a drink with them, or any of the other ways they could possibly contract the disease. As we all know, kids are super hygienic so you don't have anything to worry about.

My point in bringing up Asians is not to bash Asians (we have 2 daughters adopted from China), but rather to point out we live in a global world where kids routinely encounter kids from other countries, and that is one of the reason why vaccinations are so important. Just because a disease is primarily associated with sexual activity and drug use here does not mean that is the case everywhere else.

 

[CanadaJohn]

Sounds fine...as long as all the parents who are not vaccinating their kids pay for it. If the kid is going to be deprived of all the opportunity and socialization that his local public school provides because of the willful ignorance of other parents then they should pay for it.

As a Libertarian and someone who supports the rights of a minority against majority dictates on other issues as you've frequently outlined, I'm surprised you'd take this position. The principle of supporting minority rights shouldn't be situational.

 

[Superfly]

so yeah, anti-vax woo even puts some of the vaccinated at risk.

i'm not saying that anti-vaxers shouldn't be allowed their woo. i'm arguing that their kids should have to be vaccinated to enter school. want to believe Andrew Wakefield and natural news instead of science? cool. home school your kids.

I wonder how many people actually read Wakefield's findings - if they were even published, after The Lancet pulled his study. I wonder if anyone actually read it, or they are going by what somebody on the internet said. Things spread like wildfire online. And of course, you can believe anything you read on the internet.

 

[Helix]

I wonder how many people actually read Wakefield's findings - if they were even published, after The Lancet pulled his study. I wonder if anyone actually read it, or they are going by what somebody on the internet said. Things spread like wildfire online. And of course, you can believe anything you read on the internet.

they are most likely getting their info from unscientific ****holes like natural news and from other blogs written by people who probably haven't even taken undergraduate immunology.

 

[Superfly]

they are most likely getting their info from unscientific ****holes like natural news and from other blogs written by people who probably haven't even taken undergraduate immunology.

OOooh, and Playboy bunnies. Don't forget about Playboy bunnies.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

OOooh, and Playboy bunnies. Don't forget about Playboy bunnies.

Well as you know there is no better way to make a social statement than to use your kids health and the health of others.

 

[Henrin]

Ok, with that point made (and i do agree), for the same reason, the school should no longer be asking parents not to send foods to school that children with nut based allergies would have issues with.. The schools should stop catering to issues that each individual child has, that in turn affect other children...

I don't think someones individual needs override the rights of others. If your child can't be around nuts then it is your responsibility to make sure they're not. You don't have a right to tell me that my child can't enjoy peanut butter because your kid has some bizarre allergy where they can't even be around nuts.

 

[Henrin]

So you opted not to vaccinate against a preventable disease with an inexpensive vaccine that has been proven as one of the safest medical procedures in use in the world because you don't believe that is possible for your kids to contract the disease despite the fact that hundreds of millions of people have it worldwide, we live in a global society, and kids are the worst about touching and coming into contact with the bodily fluids of other kids. Given the shear number of Asians that carry Hep B, you probably should ensure they have no Asian friends at all if you don't want them vaccinated against it.

Why do you think the CDC and WHO recommends every infant be vaccinated for Hep B before leaving the hospital? Do you think its because they are bought and paid for by pharmaceutical companies? There is no money in vaccinations. Big Pharma would love for parents not to vaccinate their children for Hep B and instead bank on some of them contracting it and then selling them Interferon treatments for thousands of dollars a dose.

You actually pay any mind to WHO? You know they are self professed liars, right? Are we just going to ignore that they admitted to lying about the healthcare ranking of the US?

 

[Declan]

I don't think someones individual needs override the rights of others. If your child can't be around nuts then it is your responsibility to make sure they're not. You don't have a right to tell me that my child can't enjoy peanut butter because your kid has some bizarre allergy where they can't even be around nuts.

Oh, God, I have a friend like that. That is about all she posts about in facebook--that and linked stories she is flagging for facebook to get them to take down because they are "offensive" in her mind because she disagrees with them.

 

[whysoserious]

Wow. Colorado should all be dead from the measles, whooping cough, and a plethora of other diseases. How are they doing, BTW? Any outbreaks?

Well that's a bit of an exaggeration, but yeah, it appears the Disneyland outbreak has spread to Colorado.

 

[Henrin]

Well that's a bit of an exaggeration, but yeah, it appears the Disneyland outbreak has spread to Colorado.

So last year there was 644 people diagnosed with measles and you guys are scared? Why exactly are you scared again?

 

[whysoserious]

So last year there was 644 people diagnosed with measles and you guys are scared? Why exactly are you scared again?

That more idiots will continue to not vaccinate their kids. Why don't we just quit bathing while we're at it?

 

[Henrin]

That more idiots will continue to not vaccinate their kids. Why don't we just quit bathing while we're at it?

Well, your case isn't that strong here. :shrug:

 

[Ikari]

Well that's a bit of an exaggeration, but yeah, it appears the Disneyland outbreak has spread to Colorado.

Tis a little hyperbole indeed. But the point was this how herd immunization needs 95%, or that was the claim. Colorado has been at near 80% for everything. You claim we cannot take a 2% bump, but here is a 15% bump. You should have many more cases with many more infected, with fully resolved statistics. So this outbreak spread to CO, but you should have many more instances of outbreak in addition. There should be statistically significant data supporting your claim. I'm just looking for that.

How fares the ol' Colorado?

 

[Superfly]

You actually pay any mind to WHO? You know they are self professed liars, right? Are we just going to ignore that they admitted to lying about the healthcare ranking of the US?

Are you going to ignore that everything that Wakefield said in his study was debunked, and pulled from The Lancet? Which is more important, a ranking or the health of unprotected children?

 

[Henrin]

Are you going to ignore that everything that Wakefield said in his study was debunked, and pulled from The Lancet? Which is more important, a ranking or the health of unprotected children?

In my book once you admit to being a liar you lose all creditability that you might have had.

 

[whysoserious]

Well, your case isn't that strong here. :shrug:

My case that people who don't vaccinate their kids endanger everyone else isn't strong?

 

[Superfly]

In my book once you admit to being a liar you lose all creditability that you might have had.

That's bananas. You'd rather listen to someone who was clearly full of ****, but because he didn't admit he was full of ****, that's OK. He's more believable.

Well, I got one for ya'. The moon is made of green cheese. Every single part of my study was debunked by scientists who actually put in the work to verify that my findings were garbage, but that's OK because I stand by my right to say that the moon is full of green cheese. Now. All I need is some hot blonde to tell everyone that the moon is made of green cheese, and then all of a sudden, people all over the world will start believing me.