Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

[rocket88]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

and yet, the authors of the Stand Your Ground law, have ALL said that Zimmerman cannot use the law as a defense in this case.

Well, they actually said it wasn't their intent. Whether or not he can use it as a defense should be decided by a grand jury or a judge, ideally. I guess in this case, the Sanford PD has decided that they are the grand jury.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

...YOU are the one saying following someone is intimidation. I've been followed before by someone, I didn't shoot them.....

yes, following someone in a car and then on foot, in the middle of the night and the rain, is pretty intimidating.

Martin was right to be in fear.

 

[Gie]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Again, Zimmerman might have felt he could handle the problem. However, if the kid wasn't really scared and attacked Zimmerman, Zimmerman would be in the right to shoot the kid.

So far many people are just assuming Martin is this nice happy go lucky kid with no aggresive act in his body. We don't know what actions the boy took either.

That's all I'm saying is we don't know all the facts and people are making Zimmerman guilty automatically. It is not illegla to get out of your car.

Again, the police dispatcher (likely had Zimmerman's 50 plus call record in pulled up too) told Zimmerman not to handle the problem. The fact of the matter is that had Zimmerman not decided he was a one man vigilante, Martin would be alive and with his family now. Of course we have the actual recording of Martin speaking to his girlfriend as Zimmerman stalked him and he was afraid. End of the day, Zimmerman killed Martin. He will get to pay for that, at least in a civil suit, hopefully in a criminal one too.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Again, the police dispatcher (likely had Zimmerman's 50 plus call record in pulled up too) told Zimmerman not to handle the problem. The fact of the matter is that had Zimmerman not decided he was a one man vigilante, Martin would be alive and with his family now. Of course we have the actual recording of Martin speaking to his girlfriend as Zimmerman stalked him and he was afraid. End of the day, Zimmerman killed Martin. He will get to pay for that, at least in a civil suit, hopefully in a criminal one too.

yes, there is NO doubt, that Zimmerman killed young Trayvon Martin. And its very sad, considering none of this had to happen.

 

[What if...?]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

so, the kid was soo scared he callled his girlfriend and not the cops.

I thought he was on the phone when he became aware of Zim?

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Well, they actually said it wasn't their intent. Whether or not he can use it as a defense should be decided by a grand jury or a judge, ideally. I guess in this case, the Sanford PD has decided that they are the grand jury.

Actually, both co-sponsors said this:

It is the fact that Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator's advice not to follow Martin that former Sen. Peaden says disqualifies him from claiming self-defense under the law.


"The guy lost his defense right then," Peaden told the Miami Herald. "When he said 'I'm following him,' he lost his defense." Rep. Dennis Baxley, Peaden's co-sponsor in the Florida House, agrees with his former colleague, telling the newspaper that the law does not license neighborhood watch or others who feel "like they have the authority to pursue and confront people. That is aggravating an incident right there."

Author of "stand your ground" law: George Zimmerman should probably be arrested for killing Trayvon Martin - Crimesider - CBS News

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

No I agree with you about the facts and Zimmerman's automatic guilty, but there are plenty who are screaming he is in no way guilty as well. And I know we do not know much about Martin. But I was just saying that it was stupid beyond all stupid to get out of that car. The kid knows you are following him and you are going to get out and walk up to him?

Oh I'm definitely not saying Zimmerman is not guilty.

Given the information so far, I would say it leans more to being guilty. I'm just saying we don't know everything and I see situations where zimmerman could be not guilty. We just don't know for sure.

 

[soccerboy22]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Noone is saying Zimmerman was very bright. However, being stupid isn't illegal and it doesn't mean you are guilty just because you are stupid.

I agree, but his stupidity reads as aggresive, and Martin in his mind, was probably defending himself. And as of now, I am not sure of his innocence and guilt because the police dropped the ball and it makes it harder to tell, but he made incredible stupid and wrong decisions and a young kid died because of it.

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

yes, following someone in a car and then on foot, in the middle of the night and the rain, is pretty intimidating.

Martin was right to be in fear.

And perfectly LEGAL

 

[Gie]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Actually, both co-sponsors said this:



Author of "stand your ground" law: George Zimmerman should probably be arrested for killing Trayvon Martin - Crimesider - CBS News

Yip this is what my "legal experts" tell me, read friends and clients who are lawyers.

 

[Erod]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

What is more racist?

A white guy shooting a black kid in an affluent neighborhood?

Or assuming a white guy who shot a black kid in an affluent neighborhood must have been a racist?

Seems about equally racist to me.

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I agree, but his stupidity reads as aggresive, and Martin in his mind, was probably defending himself. And as of now, I am not sure of his innocence and guilt because the police dropped the ball and it makes it harder to tell, but he made incredible stupid and wrong decisions and a young kid died because of it.

Yes, but again, you don't know the kid's actions either. If the kid was not aggresive, he might be alive as well.

All I'm saying is we don't know.

 

[OhIsee.Then]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

and yet, the authors of the Stand Your Ground law, have ALL said that Zimmerman cannot use the law as a defense in this case.

What they are saying now doesn't matter. It's what the law indicates, it's written down. I think SYGL as written is exactly what they intended, and it worked as intended. The only thing that screwed it up was national news. There is still a chance for someone to use the SYGL to apply perfect justice, but maybe not the way that was intended by the authors.

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Or assuming a white guy who shot a black kid in an affluent neighborhood must have been a racist?

I would saying calling a black kid a "#@$#@ Coon" is a pretty racist thing to do.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Now that the "CONCERN" for justice is growing nationwide by soon to be millions of people who have no idea whatsoever what the facts are, the alledged shooter has virtually no chance in this country of getting a fair trial. This mob of uneducated civilans act only out of emotion, not out of intellect. Now Da Rev., convicted coke dealer Al Razor-Sharpton sees another chance to get on Teee-Veee. Do not charge this man with anything as it will be a waste of money to try to convict now. O.J. was aquitted for one reason-fear of riots by the same people. Let them riot as long as they burn their own homes which they bought with free federal money

I don't agree. When people sit in the jury box, they generally put on a mantle of fairness that's surprising. That, combined with a clear explanation of the SYGL and jury instructions, should make it possible to have a fair trial. (If it even goes to trial.) And then, again, a defendant can always ask for the judge to make the decision...frankly, I'll put my trust in the jury, though.

 

[soccerboy22]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Yes, but again, you don't know the kid's actions either. If the kid was not aggresive, he might be alive as well.

All I'm saying is we don't know.

No I agree, I forgot to put in the fact, Martin was stupid in going up to fighting a guy following you and then gets out of his car.

 

[soccerboy22]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I would saying calling a black kid a "#@$#@ Coon" is a pretty racist thing to do.

Has it actually come out as that being what he said?

 

[Gie]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

And perfectly LEGAL

Uhm what is perfectly legal? I'm pretty sure all of the above, including ignoring police dispatch directives, culminating in the death of the person you are following is not only illegal, but prosecutable. Following a thorough investigation that is, which this incident did not receive.

Side note, did anybody notice yesterday's New York Times article about Zimmerman? It stated he was a "White Hispanic". I had to stop and think about that one, I have never in my life come across such an appellation. White Hispanic. A bit later I saw their article about Sharpton heading to Florida to pursue the racist angle. Then it made sense to me, hard to make a case of a racism if it is two minorities involved. Ahhh, but you add "White" to "Hispanic" and you do. Good coordination work between Sharpton and the New York Times?

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Again, the police dispatcher (likely had Zimmerman's 50 plus call record in pulled up too) told Zimmerman not to handle the problem. The fact of the matter is that had Zimmerman not decided he was a one man vigilante, Martin would be alive and with his family now. Of course we have the actual recording of Martin speaking to his girlfriend as Zimmerman stalked him and he was afraid. End of the day, Zimmerman killed Martin. He will get to pay for that, at least in a civil suit, hopefully in a criminal one too.

That's not quite true. One of the reasons for SYG Laws is to exempt shooters from civil liability.

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Has it actually come out as that being what he said?

Yes, it was on the 911 call.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I agree and with the situation under intense scrutiny now there should be some serious consideration. But too much rabble rousing doesn't improve the justice system. The excessive attention on the Casey Anthony case most likely fouled the process and tainted the jury pool.

All the protesting does in relation to trial itself if there is one, is assures it has to be moved notably away from the Country and probably starting with a larger jury pool to try to find jurors from. Which ever place they would move it doesn't work well for the prosecution. If to Miami, well, Zimmerman is Latino plus crime so high there they might really like an extra nosy neighborhood watcher. If to central or the panhandle of Florida, they mostly would tend to believe if someone is being assaulted by a 17 year old at night, that person can shoot in self defense.

The reason for the outcome of the Casey Anthony case was not a tainted jury. It has to do with the extreme burden of proof on the prosecution in a murder case that is decisively more difficult than other state. The prosecution not only has to show guilt "beyond a REASONABLE doubt," but also to the exclusion of any other possibility. In short, the prosecution has to show that it was impossible that Anthony did not murder her daughter.

In this matter with Zimmerman, proving that upon circumstances and evidence, the "reasonable" conclusion is Zimmerman is guilty. However, in Florida, the prosecution has to show that, within the known and UNKNOWN facts and evidence, it is impossible that Zimmerman is not guilty for any possible alternative senario imaginable. And that duty is on the prosecution, not defense. Soooo, unlike other states, Zimmerman does not have to present an "affirmative defense" to the homocide. Rather, the prosecution has to prove there is no possible affirmative defense within any imaginable scenario. Without an eye witness or actual forensic evidence exactly on the point of the moment the gun was fired, a murder prosecution is almost impossible to succeed. For example, in nearly all states circumstantial evidence only can be sufficient for a murder conviction. It is all but impossible to be enough in Florida.

The Florida Supreme Court and Florida Bar have been in negotiations to change this after the Casey Anthony case (even before this shooting), BUT that likely cannot make it retroactive.

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Uhm what is perfectly legal? I'm pretty sure all of the above, including ignoring police dispatch directives, culminating in the death of the person you are following is not only illegal, but prosecutable. Following a thorough investigation that is, which this incident did not receive.

The dispatch was not an actual police officer therefore not illegal to ignore.

And if Martin thought he was being stalked, he could have called the police. He didn't.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

...And if Martin thought he was being stalked, he could have called the police. He didn't.

17 year-olds don't always make the smartest decisions

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

The dispatch was not an actual police officer therefore not illegal to ignore.

And if Martin thought he was being stalked, he could have called the police. He didn't.

A person can tell a police dispatcher to go to hell. He/she is just a telephone receptionist at least in most jurisdictions.

 

[soccerboy22]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Yes, it was on the 911 call.

Well I heard the 911 call and that is what I thought he said, but the audio still wasn't very clear so I was not sure.