Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

[What if...?]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

We only have snippets of Zimmerman's statement's to police.
And thus far they are consistent with the 911 calls we have heard and also with the released information from Trayvon's girlfriend.

Now let me ask you about what you said here about the confrontation. Or as you describe it, "a conversation".
You don't think the police know that?
Of course they do, and whatever information was had, it still wasn't enough for the prosecutors to bring charges.
Remember. It was the prosecutors and not the police that determined there wasn't enough evidence to obtain a conviction.




Why are you saying there wasn't an investigation when clearly there was?



No he hasn't.
That is a characterization in your mind.

Ok, we throw in a little CYA.

The officer in charge at the scene was criticized for not arresting the son of another cop who was on video beating a homelss guy.

The officer who responded may not have been conversant with homocide procedures.

The girlfriends information may not have entered the picture immediately.

So halfass policework swept under the carpet by the DA to avoid any kind of liability for negligence on the part of the PD of the city for which the DA works?

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

He was pissed that Zimmerman called the police on him?

Let me know when you find a shred of evidence that Trayvon knew Zimmerman was on the phone with the police.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Zimmerman being beaten down and Martin continuing to assault him, particularly noting a wound to the BACK of Zimmerman's head, does justify him using deadly force, since he clearly was unable to defend himself otherwise. NO ONE has to allow themselves to be continually beaten at risk of greater pain, greater risk of permanent disfigurement, permanent crippling injury, permanent brain damage or death.

Say what??

So a bank robber has the right to kill the bank security guard if he's overtaken by the guard and getting beat up??

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

You seem to be going around in circles

Sections 776.032 and 776.085 provides the protection from civil action resulting form the use of justifiable deadly force. Fortunately Zimmerman is in Florida and the Fl legislature has worked that out for him


Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes :->2010->Chapter 776 : Online Sunshine

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force,

It's not entirely clear yet that Zimmerman was "permitted" to kill Trayvon. Although that was the initial thinking of local law enforcement, that is subject to change.

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

He was suspended for being tardy. Not for bad behaviour, not for drugs, not for fighting. For tardiness.

Tardiness is bad behavior.

 

[Ahlevah]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Take color out of it.

You can't really take color out of it. Even Jesse Jackson couldn't do that:

There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.... After all we have been through. Just to think we can't walk down our own streets, how humiliating.

Jesse Jackson - Wikiquote

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

As far as I know, assault is not a defense.

How does one defend themselves from a potential attacker without assaulting them?

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Tardiness is bad behavior.

No, it's being late...

Tardiness | Define Tardiness at Dictionary.com

 

[What if...?]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

As far as I know, assault is not a defense.




Maybe there should be one thread for the presentation and discussion of factual information, and another for wild supposition?

Seriously?

Please demonstrate anything that doesn't fit ALL the evidence EXCEPT Zimmermans statement.

And the behavioral precedent for the aggressive behavior on Martin's part you are accepting as gospel. A-B student, no record, nothing but the suspension for being tardy. Knew several chronic tardies back in my school days. Can't remember any indication of this being associated with violent tendencies.

Further, if Zim made no mention of the conversation with Martin, then he's probably lying to avoid going to jail.

What is the ONLY reason you can shoot someone dead?

Self defense or defense of others.

So did he say "he asked why I was following him" etc etc.

Or did he say he lost him and was on his way back to his truck when he was attacke from the rear?

Cuz that's the two narratives we're working here.

And remember: the girlfriends story places the scuffle immediately after the verbal exchange.

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Ok, we throw in a little CYA.

Don't you mean wild supposition?

The officer in charge at the scene was criticized for not arresting the son of another cop who was on video beating a homelss guy.

Critisized? What's that mean, and just why should I care? Where is the detailed analysis of what happened to form an opinion on it?

The officer who responded may not have been conversant with homocide procedures.

I know there are specialties within Police agencies, but that in no way means this Officer was incapable of investigating or that it was improper to pepper him with questions. And this doesn't even speak to whether or not they had a homicide detective later in the interview process. Or even if it really matters.
The Police Chief stands by the results of this investigation.

The girlfriends information may not have entered the picture immediately.

That's right. It may not have.
But most likely they had her information before they decided not to press charges.

But since we are engaging in wild speculation here: She had way more time and in a much less stressful environment to come up with a lie to favor Trayvon, about what happened.

So halfass policework swept under the carpet by the DA to avoid any kind of liability for negligence on the part of the PD of the city for which the DA works? Counting on Martin having a record so it all goes away?

Oh great. Now it's a damned conspiracy.
Counting on Trayvon to have a record? WTF? I don't think you really realize how far out on the limb you really are here.
They had more than ample time to check on Trayvon's background before the decided not the press forward with charges.
And why didn't they press charges? Because the evidence wasn't there.

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

No, it's being late...

lol
Continuously being late is bad behavior.
And I guess when it happens numerous times, one eventually get suspended for such bad behavior.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I have yet to read any post they want to see that justice is done, even if in the end the facts shows that should be justice for Zimmerman. Zimmerman's not dead, but if in fact this was self defense he most definitely is the victim and every means has been made to maximize the destruction to his life.

If it was self defense, justice for Zimmerman is not even a possibility at this point. He many not go to jail, but the media, even the President personally, has shattered his future. But, then, Zimmerman is the wrong race so couldn't be the President's son nor is he white. So who cares?

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

So what? Trayvon had every right to defend himself from someone following him in the dark.

As far as I know, assault is not a defense.

How does one defend themselves from a potential attacker without assaulting them?

I get what your saying here.
How is this?
Trayvon engaged in aggravated assault.
That is not a defense to being followed.
Besides, the only evidence we have is that he was the initial attacker.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

lol
Continuously being late is bad behavior.
And I guess when it happens numerous times, one eventually get suspended for such bad behavior.

Now you're making **** up. You don't even know what he reasons for being late are. That is not bad behavior.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

lol
Continuously being late is bad behavior.
And I guess when it happens numerous times, one eventually get suspended for such bad behavior.

Tardiness falls under truancy laws and he was so often truant as to be suspended. Nor does that prove he otherwise is the perfect 17 year old. It was asserted he was a perfect 17 year old football player. That was false. He is NOT a football player because he is suspended and he is not the perfect teen because he is a habitual school truant.

So then the declaration is that while the claims of his perfection were actually all false, he is certainly perfect in every other way. I think most teachers would confirm that habitual truants rarely are perfect behavior students. Juvenile records are generally sealed. And we know he has an extremely violent disposition towards people that piss him off.

A violent habitual school truant is not the perfect teen.

But he does look like he could be the President's son being the right race according to the President. Zimmerman is the wrong race.

The President wants everyone in the country, including all on the grand jury, all in his Justice Department, the judge, and every prospective juror to know precisely this about this matter: Martin is the right race. Zimmerman is the wrong race.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I get what your saying here.
How is this?
Trayvon engaged in aggravated assault.
That is not a defense to being followed.
Besides, the only evidence we have is that he was the initial attacker.

When do you stop making stuff up? Florida law allowed Trayvon to attack Zimmermen if he reasonably felt Zimmerman posed an imminent threat to him. Which is not unreasonable against someone following you in the dark for no apparent reason.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

And we know he has an extremely violent disposition towards people that piss him off.

I look forward to you proving that ....

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Now you're making **** up. You don't even know what he reasons for being late are. That is not bad behavior.

Your grasping.

Being tardy is bad behavior.
If there were legitimate reason for them they would have resulted in 'excused tardies' wouldn't they?
And a person usually doesn't get expelled exclusively for 'excused tardies'.

This expulsion thing doesn't really matter to the known facts of this incident.
So how about we just stick with those?

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Being tardy is bad behavior.
If there were legitimate reason for them they would have resulted in 'excused tardies' wouldn't they?
And a person usually doesn't get expelled exclusively for 'excused tardies'.

Not necessarily. "Exused" tardies require a parent or guardian written approval. Face facts, you don't know the reasons for why Trayvon was late for school. Stop pretending like you do.

 

[taxigirl]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Your grasping.

Being tardy is bad behavior.
If there were legitimate reason for them they would have resulted in 'excused tardies' wouldn't they?
And a person usually doesn't get expelled exclusively for 'excused tardies'.

This expulsion thing doesn't really matter to the known facts of this incident.
So how about we just stick with those?

Please explain how you can make the jump from tardiness to violence and other "suspicious" behavior. There seem to be a lot of assumptions in this thread.

 

[ric27]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I agree with everything else you said in that post except the above.
You do not know him to be an asshole.
All report that I have seen of those that know him say he isn't.

A gun is just a tool in a toolbox

If your out of shape and want to be law enforcement, hit the gym. If you can't afford the gym, hit the sidewalk running and push 'em out in the park. On the other hand, if you're failing an entrance exam with a 30%, you may want to reconsider the profession.

All in all, I believe that anyone who wants to become a cop should try to balance PT and knowledge out. You dont need someone who can do 300 push ups for but cant talk himself out of a domestic/family situation. At the same time, you dont need porky pig getting out of the patrol car for a 16yr old who just finished stabbing someone is running and porky is doing the chasing...

People (teens) laugh and automatically dont respect when they see a fat guy who runs out of breath from the patrol car to their front porch to talk to them about something.

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Please demonstrate anything that doesn't fit ALL the evidence EXCEPT Zimmermans statement.

This needs to be reworded.

And the behavioral precedent for the aggressive behavior on Martin's part you are accepting as gospel. A-B student, no record, nothing but the suspension for being tardy. Knew several chronic tardies back in my school days. Can't remember any indication of this being associated with violent tendencies.

lol
No behavioral precedent is needed.
Don't you get it yet?
I am trying to bring forth the factual evidence and avoid all the speculation and supposition that others have engaged in and you keep wanting to go right back to wild supposition.

You don't need any behavioral precedent. None is needed. None at all.
The evidence says Trayvon was the attacker.
That is consistent with the girlfriends statement.


Or maybe you are conveniently forgetting this part of it?

"Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell.”

You do know the difference between "consistent with", and corroborates, right?

Further, if Zim made no mention of the conversation with Martin, then he's probably lying to avoid going to jail.

This is something the Police as well as the Prosecutor, would already have known. And it was decided not to press charges.
What I find odd about your approach here is that you said the following like it meant something. "I'm a pattern recognizer. I'm pretty good at "people"."
If you are, then you should know how that it would have been damn difficult, if not impossible for Zimmerman to concoct any "lie" for CYA reasons.
Especially a lie that could hold up under scrutiny.
The way he was screaming like a little girl?
It was too damn stressful of a situation.
Unless he has been trained to think under such stressful situations...
Your position is bs.
And then he was immediately peppered with questions about what happened.
Yeah, your position is bs.

Based on the immediate circumstances, he couldn't have been of the mind, or even had the time to come up with lies that would hold up under scrutiny.


And yet you say; "I'm a pattern recognizer. I'm pretty good at "people"."?
Maybe you are but just not in this type of scenario.
Or maybe you are and you are letting a preconceived bias cloud your thoughts.
I don't know if you are or not, but so far I am not seeing it, because you sure are overlooking the immediate situation he was in when he was first peppered with questions.

And remember: the girlfriends story places the scuffle immediately after the verbal exchange.

Since we are engaged in wild supposition, how come you are not supposing that she lied?
You got a bias or something?

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Not necessarily. "Exused" tardies require a parent or guardian written approval. Face facts, you don't know the reasons for why Trayvon was late for school. Stop pretending like you do.

lol
I am arguing what was presented.
I have no idea if he was actually expelled, expelled for tardies, or if tardies was made up to cover for the real reason of expulsion.
But I do not need that information to know that tardies are bad behavior.

As far as I am concerned it has no relevance as to the facts of what occurred, and neither does information that he may or may not have been a good kid.

Now let me throw all you holders of a preconceived bias, off.

Does anybody know how much taller Trayvon was than Zimmerman?

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Please explain how you can make the jump from tardiness to violence and other "suspicious" behavior. There seem to be a lot of assumptions in this thread.

Please show me where I made this connection.
As far as I know, and is even in what you quoted from me, was the following:

"This expulsion thing doesn't really matter to the known facts of this incident.
So how about we just stick with those?"​

 

[taxigirl]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Please show me where I made this connection.
As far as I know, and is even in what you quoted from me, was the following:

"This expulsion thing doesn't really matter to the known facts of this incident.
So how about we just stick with those?"​

Sorry, I did not catch the end because I was disturbed that you also said "Being tardy is bad behavior."