"Fag"

[Kelzie]

Re: Tincture

Then you must hang out with a pretty shitty group of people. I'm a Catholic and a Republican and I don't give a flying **** who you choose to share affection with. I live with a gay man, have gay fraternity brothers, and have more gay friends than you can shake a stick at. Know what? The majority of them are Christian. The sooner that extremists on both sides realize that religion and homosexuality aren't at odds, the better off we'll be.

But for right now? I see no difference between the bigoted conservative Christian who hates you for your sexuality and you who hates him for his religion.

Which only begs the question...exactly how many gays can you shake a stick at?

 

[MSgt]

Re: Tincture

I see no difference between the bigoted conservative Christian who hates you for your sexuality and you who hates him for his religion.

Good. This is what I mean when I state that prejudice against religion is as ignorant as prejudice within religion.

 

[QueerNation]

Re: Charades

I think that some of your extremely bigoted expressions against Christianity are vile. I think comments like "I'm trying to unbuckle the Bible Belt" are intolerant. I believe your assertion that our military service men and women have a "martyr/victim complex" that is a sign of "mental instability" is vile beyond measure.

It goes much deeper than being "anti-war" but you would like to pretend otherwise when called to task for it.

some people...

Oh gimme a break. I said the 'Bible-Belt' line because it's FUNNY. I think you need to lighten up and try to let humor loosen up your rigid ideology. If saying the crack about the Bible belt is 'vile beyond measure'; it is very obvious that you have a much bigger problem than just getting your feelings hurt. I honestly believe that Christianity CAN help some people, and I give various churches credit for that, I've really SEEN it change people in a very good way, but I've seen it harm others.
But really, if that is the way you feel, you're entitled to those negative feelings, just don't blame me for the negativity that YOU feel. You're just going to have to grow up and realize that I file such exaggerated whining under the category of 'too bad'.

I didn't refer to the soldiers as having the 'victim/martyr' complex, it was aimed at 'patriots' (most of whom are NON-military btw), who glorify war as if WAR is somehow a 'worthy' action. Until humanity itself can get beyond this shallow 'crypto-reptilian', testosterone-fueled childishness to hurt and kill one another in wars, we are pretty much cursed to continue our often 'god-given' path of destruction; people fighting in the name of their Gods, the 'Gods of War' (insert image of thousands of angry men with their fists raised high in the air holding uzi's). I believe that glorifying War is the same as glorifying RAPE, but instead of raping one victim, war is an attempt at raping the entire PLANET.
And I think that non-violent people and the non-human species still left on the planet deserve much better than to have to put up with such feeble expressions of violence and rape in their lives.

 

[QueerNation]

Re: Tincture

Then you must hang out with a pretty shitty group of people. I'm a Catholic and a Republican and I don't give a flying **** who you choose to share affection with. I live with a gay man, have gay fraternity brothers, and have more gay friends than you can shake a stick at. Know what? The majority of them are Christian. The sooner that extremists on both sides realize that religion and homosexuality aren't at odds, the better off we'll be.

But for right now? I see no difference between the bigoted conservative Christian who hates you for your sexuality and you who hates him for his religion.

Gee buddy, get a grip! Isn't that kind of language shunned in this forum?

To clarify what I was trying to say that you so obviously were not listening: I didn't say ALL christians, I was speaking almost exclusively about the modern American evangelical Christian movement which is a very specific group of people and a very large group of people. I don't hate anyone because of their religion. I hate people who USE religion to spread hate and fear. And that is exactly what most of the Evangelical Christian groups and the 'Family Council' does on an almost constant basis. I have a lot of gay friends who are Christian too, but they don't use their religious beliefs to attack others. I would hope that the 'true Christian' would use their religion and faith to work upon those things in themselves that cause hate and fear. That is what Spirituality is, and it doesn't matter what religion, or lack of religion a person has, they still have the ability to find 'God' at their disposal at any time.
So please don't make such presumptions about me. It's very rude. And so is your outburst.

 

[QueerNation]

Re: Charades

I see. So you're only concerned about America's peace and freedom. Why is that exactly? Partial to a certain skin color? Or do you just hate religion that much? I mean, don't get me wrong, I despise organized religion on many levels. But even I don't think the religious deserve to live under murderous tyrants.

Can you be more specific? What did I say specifically that made you think I was only interested in America's freedom? And also, how does anything I said translate to 'hating religion'?? I am very interested in how you came up with that impression, it's a very interesting perspective I must say...

...or are you merely suggesting those things because I don't support the war in Iraq?

 

[jallman]

Re: Charades

Oh gimme a break. I said the 'Bible-Belt' line because it's FUNNY. I think you need to lighten up and try to let humor loosen up your rigid ideology. If saying the crack about the Bible belt is 'vile beyond measure'; it is very obvious that you have a much bigger problem than just getting your feelings hurt. I honestly believe that Christianity CAN help some people, and I give various churches credit for that, I've really SEEN it change people in a very good way, but I've seen it harm others.
But really, if that is the way you feel, you're entitled to those negative feelings, just don't blame me for the negativity that YOU feel. You're just going to have to grow up and realize that I file such exaggerated whining under the category of 'too bad'.

I didn't refer to the soldiers as having the 'victim/martyr' complex, it was aimed at 'patriots' (most of whom are NON-military btw), who glorify war as if WAR is somehow a 'worthy' action. Until humanity itself can get beyond this shallow 'crypto-reptilian', testosterone-fueled childishness to hurt and kill one another in wars, we are pretty much cursed to continue our often 'god-given' path of destruction; people fighting in the name of their Gods, the 'Gods of War' (insert image of thousands of angry men with their fists raised high in the air holding uzi's). I believe that glorifying War is the same as glorifying RAPE, but instead of raping one victim, war is an attempt at raping the entire PLANET.
And I think that non-violent people and the non-human species still left on the planet deserve much better than to have to put up with such feeble expressions of violence and rape in their lives.

Well, when you develop the ability to express yourself clearly and get "what you meant to say" across without having to backpedal, I might find it in me to take you seriously again. Until then, keep throwing your little priss fit. It's at least a bit entertaining...:lol:

 

[Gardener]

Re: Tincture

Which only begs the question...exactly how many gays can you shake a stick at?

I imagine that all depends on the gays in question.


Not to mention, the stick..........

 

[jallman]

Re: Tincture

I imagine that all depends on the gays in question.


Not to mention, the stick..........

I've never had the opportunity to shake mine at more than 3 at once. :3oops:

 

[QueerNation]

Re: Charades

Well, when you develop the ability to express yourself clearly and get "what you meant to say" across without having to backpedal, I might find it in me to take you seriously again. Until then, keep throwing your little priss fit. It's at least a bit entertaining...:lol:

I honestly could care less who you take seriously. I was able to see very clearly from reading more than a few of your posts, that you suffer from an internalized form of homophobia. Remember: even gay people can suffer from homophobia. That is, unless you're trying to say that you are heterosexual, in which case I would simply respond: 'I don't believe you.' I can't imagine a heterosexual man having such a 'prissy' (to borrow your description) and 'gay' avatar.

No offense...

 

[QueerNation]

Re: Charades

You completely miss the point of the quote. Whether or not you think the US has "fought for freedom" since World War II is irrelevant. Here's the facts:

-There are organizations of people across the world who desire to attack and kill Americans.
-These people have done it before (most noticeably 8 blocks from my window), and have made many, many, many attempts to do it again.
-The only thing that is preventing them from succeeding is the combined military, civilian, and intelligence efforts of our nation and our allies.

So yea, whether or not you might care, I for one, sleep a lot easier at night knowing that there are people working and fighting every damn day to keep me alive.

Then, by your own admission, wouldn't it be a much more HONEST statement for your quotation to say: "I sleep peacefully at night because macho dudes are ready to fight for me."?

At least that way, it's not quite so offensive to others, especially people like me who do not believe that the war in Iraq has a THING to do with the attack and bombing down the street from you. I am not even positive that the action in Afghanistan necessarily made any improvements in ridding the planet of terrorists. If anything, I believe it created a more hostile environment world-wide, alienating the US even more from many former allies and created even more of a reason for these religious freaks to develop their warped 'die for allah' martyr complex. The same complex that our president seems very comfortable with as he sees fit to order 22,000 more American lives to squandor in much the way the Texas fuel barons squandor all of our resources.

 

[BodiSatva]

Are you feeling OK queerNation?

 

[RightinNYC]

Re: Tincture

Gee buddy, get a grip! Isn't that kind of language shunned in this forum?

To clarify what I was trying to say that you so obviously were not listening: I didn't say ALL christians, I was speaking almost exclusively about the modern American evangelical Christian movement which is a very specific group of people and a very large group of people. I don't hate anyone because of their religion. I hate people who USE religion to spread hate and fear. And that is exactly what most of the Evangelical Christian groups and the 'Family Council' does on an almost constant basis. I have a lot of gay friends who are Christian too, but they don't use their religious beliefs to attack others. I would hope that the 'true Christian' would use their religion and faith to work upon those things in themselves that cause hate and fear. That is what Spirituality is, and it doesn't matter what religion, or lack of religion a person has, they still have the ability to find 'God' at their disposal at any time.
So please don't make such presumptions about me. It's very rude. And so is your outburst.

And to clarify what I say, I have an extreme distaste (I don't hate much of anyone) for people who are so broadly judgmental and prejudiced in their vilification of entire groups of society.

 

[RightinNYC]

Re: Charades

Then, by your own admission, wouldn't it be a much more HONEST statement for your quotation to say: "I sleep peacefully at night because macho dudes are ready to fight for me."?

At least that way, it's not quite so offensive to others, especially people like me who do not believe that the war in Iraq has a THING to do with the attack and bombing down the street from you. I am not even positive that the action in Afghanistan necessarily made any improvements in ridding the planet of terrorists. If anything, I believe it created a more hostile environment world-wide, alienating the US even more from many former allies and created even more of a reason for these religious freaks to develop their warped 'die for allah' martyr complex. The same complex that our president seems very comfortable with as he sees fit to order 22,000 more American lives to squandor in much the way the Texas fuel barons squandor all of our resources.

Er....where exactly does my sig mention Iraq or Afghanistan? Or did you just impute that meaning because of your personal predilections?

 

[Gardener]

Re: Charades

I honestly could care less who you take seriously. I was able to see very clearly from reading more than a few of your posts, that you suffer from an internalized form of homophobia. Remember: even gay people can suffer from homophobia. That is, unless you're trying to say that you are heterosexual, in which case I would simply respond: 'I don't believe you.' I can't imagine a heterosexual man having such a 'prissy' (to borrow your description) and 'gay' avatar.

No offense...

So, because he isn't "in your face", he isn't gay enough? Looks like not much has changed since the 1970s.

I'm reminded of a friend I had back then. He was gay and was certainly not closeted about it. We worked together and talked about everything under the sun,and he was smart, funny, and seemed perfectly natural to me. There was certainly no trace of the sort of posturing some gay men went through to fit in, and I certainly did not require that.


A funny thing happened one time when I ran into him on a city bus, though. As I entered the bus,I heard a very loud "Oh Mary" from the back, along with lots of whistles and cat calls, and there he was sitting with a couple of his other friends. I was embarrased by that sort of attention, and so were the other passengers on the bus, and I was momentarily caught between just sitting down and joining them. I decided to join them, but was struck by what a different person he seemed. Everything about him seemed exaggerated and almost narcissistic,as if he was suddenly on stage and acting the part. It's as if he had to prove he was gay enough, and it's not as if he and his two other friends were oblivious to the reactions they were getting. THey were perfectly aware of the reactions and were enjoying every bit of it. I was actually quite relieved when I got to my stop, because it all seemed vulgar and phony. Vulgar, phony, and self-reinforcing, I might add.

Why put such pressure on people to be uber-homosexual? You claim Jallman is exhibiting some form of homophobia, yet he makes no bones about his sexual orientation, and seems perfectly comfortable with it. Must he run around with a chip on his shoulder and become a caricature in order to earn his stripes?

As far as I'm concerned, it is the people who do run around with chips on their shoulder, and do demand others conform to an exaggerated expression of their sexuality who, if not homophobic, are exhibiting such unease with their own sexuality that they haven't really accepted themselves yet. It just strikes me as one who is still in a reactionary stage and acting out their turmoil.

Cut Jallman some slack, will ya? Calling him a Tom doesn't make you more of a righteous brother. It just makes you look insecure.

 

[jallman]

Re: Charades

I honestly could care less who you take seriously. I was able to see very clearly from reading more than a few of your posts, that you suffer from an internalized form of homophobia. Remember: even gay people can suffer from homophobia. That is, unless you're trying to say that you are heterosexual, in which case I would simply respond: 'I don't believe you.' I can't imagine a heterosexual man having such a 'prissy' (to borrow your description) and 'gay' avatar.

No offense...

How come with you people it's always homophobia if someone disagrees with your tactics? Does it completely escape you that some homosexuals are pretty much average citizens that don't need to wage war on the other half of society because we ENJOY being part of it? Saying I have internalized homophobia to deflect from your feeble arguments is just...well...weak.

 

[Flea]

Homosexuals suffering from an internalized form of homophobia! :rofl That is Good Stuff!

Would you please explain this condition in further detail? It sounds degenerative and extremely complicated and I am having difficulty comprehending what this condition entails. Thank you!

 

[QueerNation]

Are you feeling OK queerNation?

Why do you ask?

 

[QueerNation]

Homosexuals suffering from an internalized form of homophobia! :rofl That is Good Stuff!

Would you please explain this condition in further detail? It sounds degenerative and extremely complicated and I am having difficulty comprehending what this condition entails. Thank you!

Maybe if you had the ability to empathize you would be able to comprehend such a condition. I realize that a lot of people simply lack that ability.

http://www.lgcsc.org/internalized.html

Sorry to answer with a link, but I don't really feel like playing the 'teacher' role today. I hope you can become enlightened or even learn something from it.

 

[jallman]

Re: Charades

So, because he isn't "in your face", he isn't gay enough? Looks like not much has changed since the 1970s.

I'm reminded of a friend I had back then. He was gay and was certainly not closeted about it. We worked together and talked about everything under the sun,and he was smart, funny, and seemed perfectly natural to me. There was certainly no trace of the sort of posturing some gay men went through to fit in, and I certainly did not require that.


A funny thing happened one time when I ran into him on a city bus, though. As I entered the bus,I heard a very loud "Oh Mary" from the back, along with lots of whistles and cat calls, and there he was sitting with a couple of his other friends. I was embarrased by that sort of attention, and so were the other passengers on the bus, and I was momentarily caught between just sitting down and joining them. I decided to join them, but was struck by what a different person he seemed. Everything about him seemed exaggerated and almost narcissistic,as if he was suddenly on stage and acting the part. It's as if he had to prove he was gay enough, and it's not as if he and his two other friends were oblivious to the reactions they were getting. THey were perfectly aware of the reactions and were enjoying every bit of it. I was actually quite relieved when I got to my stop, because it all seemed vulgar and phony. Vulgar, phony, and self-reinforcing, I might add.

Why put such pressure on people to be uber-homosexual? You claim Jallman is exhibiting some form of homophobia, yet he makes no bones about his sexual orientation, and seems perfectly comfortable with it. Must he run around with a chip on his shoulder and become a caricature in order to earn his stripes?

As far as I'm concerned, it is the people who do run around with chips on their shoulder, and do demand others conform to an exaggerated expression of their sexuality who, if not homophobic, are exhibiting such unease with their own sexuality that they haven't really accepted themselves yet. It just strikes me as one who is still in a reactionary stage and acting out their turmoil.

Cut Jallman some slack, will ya? Calling him a Tom doesn't make you more of a righteous brother. It just makes you look insecure.

I wish I had the eloquence and articulation you show in every post.

On another note, I think it's even a regional thing. I knew a lot of other gay people back in North Carolina in college and none of them were big "in your face" queens. There was no huge reaction to coming out and this whole acting out mentality was frowned upon because of how it made others uncomfortable. The issue really is respect.

Here in Alaska, we have a great community. Everyone freely expresses themselves without concern for reprisal from anyone. However, there is a clear respect for others socially, spiritually, and personally. I think for that reason, there isn't that knee-jerk reaction among homosexuals here to express their sexuality in the most shocking manner possible.

In the end, I think it really is about feeling comfortable with yourself and not over compensating by demanding the attention from society that daddy never gave you...isn't that right, QueerNation?

 

[QueerNation]

Re: Tincture

And to clarify what I say, I have an extreme distaste (I don't hate much of anyone) for people who are so broadly judgmental and prejudiced in their vilification of entire groups of society.

I agree wholeheartedly and perhaps if you made an effort to practice what you're preaching you wouldn't be so uncomforable when your gay friends show affection for one another.

Just an idea.

 

[jallman]

Re: Tincture

I agree wholeheartedly and perhaps if you made an effort to practice what you're preaching you wouldn't be so uncomforable when your gay friends show affection for one another.

Just an idea.

I'm sorry...I fail to see in any of his posts where he expressed a discomfort over his gay friends showing affection...are you just making this up or, again, having trouble expressing what you really meant? :doh

 

[Flea]

Originally Posted by QueerNation
Maybe if you had the ability to empathize you would be able to comprehend such a condition. I realize that a lot of people simply lack that ability.

I don't have the ability to empathize? A lot of people do lack this ability, but would you please explain how you came to the accurate and definitive conclusion that I was included in this group! :2razz:

Originally Posted by QueerNation
The Center :: Internalized Homophobia

Sorry to answer with a link, but I don't really feel like playing the 'teacher' role today. I hope you can become enlightened or even learn something from it.

If you like to "play teacher" then perhaps you have confidence issues. I just talk to people. You are not displaying empathy to one that you think lacks it, does this make you a hypocrite then to scold me for doing what you are not doing yourself? Yep, thought so.

I just asked you a question and if you misunderstood the ROFL, then ask. Though it is you that is acting immature, I will provide an answer anyway. I had never heard that term and I thought that you made it up in order to tease jallman. I thought that you were being funny and I laughed WITH you instead of AT you. Get it?

Lastly, I thought that Internalized Homophobia as part of coming out of the closet was just something that obviously happens sometimes. I have seen this in people. I did not think that it was termed as an independent action, I thought that it was so simple that it was understood as common sense. Think what you will, but it would be refreshing to see a person do the right thing in an instance like this rather than to act like Maximus or Francais.

 

[QueerNation]

Re: Charades

So, because he isn't "in your face", he isn't gay enough? Looks like not much has changed since the 1970s.

Did I say that? Could you quote me? Didn't think so.

I'm reminded of a friend I had back then. He was gay and was certainly not closeted about it. We worked together and talked about everything under the sun,and he was smart, funny, and seemed perfectly natural to me. There was certainly no trace of the sort of posturing some gay men went through to fit in, and I certainly did not require that.

I know a lot of people like that too. I have no right to judge anyone's 'gayness' or 'lack of gayness'.

A funny thing happened one time when I ran into him on a city bus, though. As I entered the bus,I heard a very loud "Oh Mary" from the back, along with lots of whistles and cat calls, and there he was sitting with a couple of his other friends. I was embarrased by that sort of attention, and so were the other passengers on the bus, and I was momentarily caught between just sitting down and joining them. I decided to join them, but was struck by what a different person he seemed. Everything about him seemed exaggerated and almost narcissistic,as if he was suddenly on stage and acting the part. It's as if he had to prove he was gay enough, and it's not as if he and his two other friends were oblivious to the reactions they were getting. THey were perfectly aware of the reactions and were enjoying every bit of it. I was actually quite relieved when I got to my stop, because it all seemed vulgar and phony. Vulgar, phony, and self-reinforcing, I might add.

Interesting. When I see people doing that, I tend to laugh or just walk away. Why would you want to sit with people that clearly embarassed you?

Why put such pressure on people to be uber-homosexual? You claim Jallman is exhibiting some form of homophobia, yet he makes no bones about his sexual orientation, and seems perfectly comfortable with it. Must he run around with a chip on his shoulder and become a caricature in order to earn his stripes?

I've never 'pressured' or even suggested that anyone act or pretend to be anything other than themselves. I like to respect people despite character flaws like narcisssm or self-parody because I think every person deserves that respect regardless of what pose or 'caricuture' they try to reflect upon others. I think the kind of behavior you are describing is common in the hetero community as well as the gay community. And to suggest that people all behave in some 'socially accepted' way to me is a bit fascistic. Jallman has stated that he thinks such behavior amoung people in his own community is 'vile'. That certainly sounds like a 'chip on the shoulder' if you ask me.

As far as I'm concerned, it is the people who do run around with chips on their shoulder, and do demand others conform to an exaggerated expression of their sexuality who, if not homophobic, are exhibiting such unease with their own sexuality that they haven't really accepted themselves yet. It just strikes me as one who is still in a reactionary stage and acting out their turmoil.

You're probably right. But should such people who seem to be afflicted with this kind of behavior be disrespected or treated as 2nd class citizens? I certainly don't think so, just as I don't think there should be any laws against heterosexual men acting like macho fools, cat-calling women or running naked at the football game covered in paint emulating their sports heros.

Cut Jallman some slack, will ya? Calling him a Tom doesn't make you more of a righteous brother. It just makes you look insecure.

Interesting...I don't recall calling Jallman a 'tom' though I believe he has a bit of internalized homophobia, so do I. I try to work on it even today. We are all on the same kind of search - I don't think that 'search' ever stops. And if it DOES stop, I think we're just deluding ourselves.

 

[QueerNation]

Re: Tincture

I'm sorry...I fail to see in any of his posts where he expressed a discomfort over his gay friends showing affection...are you just making this up or, again, having trouble expressing what you really meant? :doh

It was in another thread about christian cons Vs Islamic cons.

 

[QueerNation]

I don't have the ability to empathize? A lot of people do lack this ability, but would you please explain how you came to the accurate and definitive conclusion that I was included in this group! :2razz:



If you like to "play teacher" then perhaps you have confidence issues. I just talk to people. You are not displaying empathy to one that you think lacks it, does this make you a hypocrite then to scold me for doing what you are not doing yourself? Yep, thought so.

I just asked you a question and if you misunderstood the ROFL, then ask. Though it is you that is acting immature, I will provide an answer anyway. I had never heard that term and I thought that you made it up in order to tease jallman. I thought that you were being funny and I laughed WITH you instead of AT you. Get it?

Lastly, I thought that Internalized Homophobia as part of coming out of the closet was just something that obviously happens sometimes. I have seen this in people. I did not think that it was termed as an independent action, I thought that it was so simple that it was understood as common sense. Think what you will, but it would be refreshing to see a person do the right thing in an instance like this rather than to act like Maximus or Francais.

I think it was very obvious that you were treating the entire idea of internalized homophobia a little intolerantly with your very obvious mockery of it, which tends to lead someone to believe that you are not very empathetic of others. If that is insulting to you, I'm sorry.