F.B.I. Investigating Police Accounts of Black Woman’s Death in Custody

[bicycleman]

I see. So running your mouth is a justifiable excuse for a cop to pull you out of your car and arrest you? Interesting idea of freedom and liberty you've got there - kiss cop rear end or get arrested.

It depends on how you run your mouth. If you run it with impunity, then the cop gets suspicious.

 

[bicycleman]

People don't die of stubbed toes. Your post is shameful.

Stubbed toes? I know of a football player, who died of a blister. Seems he was using the lead boots to exercise his quadriceps. He used them while barefooted, and he ended up getting lead poisoning. Things do happen like that, but then, that's another story.

 

[Thoreau72]

Which is NOT a real court. You have no evidence. NONE. This "copo" is crapo. Your OPINION is based on preconceived notions and bias. You just admitted that. Thank you.

[QUOTE[It does not make me happy that the public perceives cops as being fairly well out of control, grenading babies in cribs and then blaming the mother, or shooting fleeing black people whose tail light was out, and on and on and on. But whether I'm happy about it or not, whether you are happy about it or not, that is the way the cops are perceived because that is the way they act, too many times.

I have no dog in the fight, and am happy to admit that I might be wrong, and this woman was a threat to the peace and order in the community and deserved her fate. Yes, and maybe I'm wrong and the authorities have actually told the truth about the woman's death. Maybe I'm wrong, but I bet that I'm not.

I'm not happy she died. I'm not happy she died in police custody. That is poor jailing. With that bag it would have taken minutes. That's bad. But I'm also not going to JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS because a depressed individual (by all indications) killed herself. In fact that makes me LESS suspicious of any criminal wrongdoing. It would, if I were warden, make me change policies though.

Furthermore: you can go "on and on" about incidents in multiple communities with completely unconnected officers all you want...it doesn't matter. What? Do you think they say at every briefing: make sure you kill at least 1 n***** today? Seriously? That is honestly what it sounds like you are saying. It is a conspiracy.

Sigh. I digress

The facts don't support your view. That makes them illogical and irrational.[/QUOTE]

With all due respect sir, you HAVE ALREADY jumped to conclusions. :mrgreen:

 

[Objective Voice]

Excon,

On the issue of Officer Encinia accellerating, a former police officer who observed the video disagrees with you. From TPM.com, "Cop Expert: Why Sandra Bland's Arrest Was Legal But Not Good Policing:

As a former police officer, and now as a legal scholar who studies policing...

Quoted for emphasis on the author's credibility.

...Almost five minutes later, Encinia walks up to the driver’s side of Bland’s car carrying a ticket book. Almost immediately, he sees something that makes him ask, “You okay?” When Bland tells him that she’s waiting on him, he replies, “You seem very irritated.” She is, and she explains why: She switched lanes because she saw him accelerating behind her and wanted to let him pass.

As to Officer Encinia's actions overall, even this former cop makes it clear that Officer Encinia could have taken steps to diffuse the situation, but didn't. He had opportunities to keep the traffic stop calm and peaceful, but he didn't.

It is right here that Encinia has an opportunity to alleviate some of the tension of the encounter. He could, for example, thank her for moving out of the way, but explain how important signaling is, especially near an intersection. He could let her know that he has written her a warning, not a ticket (a fact that does not become clear until much later in the encounter). He could try to connect with her on a personal level, perhaps by telling her that he’d hate to welcome her to Texas with a traffic ticket.

In short, he has a chance to engage with Bland in a way that reduces antagonism and builds goodwill. It isn’t hard, and can be summed up in three words: Receive, respect, respond. Receive what someone is telling you, respect their position, and respond appropriately.

But he doesn’t. Instead, Encinia is silent. A couple of seconds pass. Then he says, “Are you done?” Those three short words send a powerful signal: “What you said does not matter.” This is the first failure in this encounter. It is not a legal failure—there is no law that requires officers to meaningfully engage with people—but it is a failure nonetheless. It is a missed opportunity for good policing.

Encinia next asks Bland to put out her cigarette. Notice that I use the word “asks.” There is a difference between a command and a request. A command is an order that the officer has legal authority to enforce. Failing to comply with a command can result in arrest or, if necessary, the use of physical force to overcome resistance. A request is altogether different; a preference that the officer would like someone to voluntarily accede to, but lacks the legal authority to require. Asking Bland to put out the cigarette she was smoking while sitting in her own car was a request, and one that she was well within her rights to decline.

When Bland refuses to put out her cigarette, Encinia orders her out of her car, saying, “Well, you can step on out now.” This was a command. In a 1977 case, Pennsylvania v. Mimms, the Supreme Court held that officers can, at their discretion, order a driver to exit the vehicle during a traffic stop (a later case expanded the rule to other vehicle occupants). That rule was justified, the Mimms Court said, because the importance of officer safety outweighs what the Court saw as the “mere inconvenience” of having to exit one’s vehicle. Although the rule is grounded in safety, officers do not need to articulate any safety concerns or any other reason in each case; they have carte blanche to require someone to exit a vehicle during the course of a traffic stop. Encinia had the authority to order Bland to exit her vehicle.

But even though it was lawful, it was not good policing. If Encinia was exercising his authority because Bland had refused to comply with his request to put out her cigarette, he was doing so to demonstrate his control over both her and the encounter itself. That is pure ego, and ego has no place in modern policing.

Now, I'm going to say this again: I totally agree that Ms. Bland made mistakes. She didn't stop at the stop sign or use her right turn signal before turning unto the main 4-lane roadway. Nor did she use her right turn signal to change lanes as Officer Encinia approached. Her attitude could have been more "cooperative" and she could have complied and got out of her car when instructed. But as the above quote on the lack of decorum on Officer Encinia's part clearly illustrates, he made mistakes, too. Though he was well within his bounds to do what he did, he didn't practice good policing upon his return to her vehicle.

(Continued...)

 

[Objective Voice]

In conclusion and thus ending my participating in this thread, from the article:

Her arrest, like the confrontations that led up to it, may have been lawful, but it was entirely avoidable had Encinia chosen a different approach.

 

[radcen]

Chris Rock may have made the video in jest, but it still contains a lot of truth. Perhaps, you are one of those, who prefers to mouth off to cops. If you want to mouth off, wait your turn in the court room. The judge might be sympathetic to you and review the facts. Arguing with the cop on the street is not the answer. Either pay the ticket out right or go to court. It is your right.

IMO, he was purposely using his gift of humor to make a very serious point. Done well, humor can be an effective means to convey a point.

 

[Citizen.Seven]

In conclusion and thus ending my participating in this thread, from the article:

Every situation, in every walk of life, can be handled differently and better. Playing should have games, while perhaps fun is not the issue. We have laws that set the limit on minimal acceptable behavior. These are, nominally, determined by balancing individual rights with public safety. The officer met these criteria, Bland didn't.

 

[blackjack50]

regardless this was bad policing

Cop Expert: Why Sandra Bland's Arrest Was Legal But Not Good Policing

Doesn't really matter if it was "bad policing." That isn't murder. And it hardly makes her a martyr for #blacklivesmatter cause. If you want to make her a martyr, talk about how her suicidal tendencies were missed and even her family didn't comment on her scarred wrists. Where was her therapist? Hm?

 

[blackjack50]

I'm not happy she died. I'm not happy she died in police custody. That is poor jailing. With that bag it would have taken minutes. That's bad. But I'm also not going to JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS because a depressed individual (by all indications) killed herself. In fact that makes me LESS suspicious of any criminal wrongdoing. It would, if I were warden, make me change policies though.

Furthermore: you can go "on and on" about incidents in multiple communities with completely unconnected officers all you want...it doesn't matter. What? Do you think they say at every briefing: make sure you kill at least 1 n***** today? Seriously? That is honestly what it sounds like you are saying. It is a conspiracy.

Sigh. I digress

The facts don't support your view. That makes them illogical and irrational.

With all due respect sir, you HAVE ALREADY jumped to conclusions. :mrgreen:[/QUOTE]

How did I jump to conclusions? Where? No. The EVIDENCE DOES indicate suicide.

1) Comments about PTSD and depression.
2) Scarred Wrists
3) Apparent suicide.

Evidence indicates suicide.

I am not the one claiming murder with 0 evidence of murder (no defensive wounds, no motive, no video, and a claim that a $10 trash can is out of place in a low budget operation).

 

[blackjack50]

In conclusion and thus ending my participating in this thread, from the article:

Everyone knows what the cops should do until they are in the situation themselves

 

[Excon]

Excon,

On the issue of Officer Encinia accellerating, a former police officer who observed the video disagrees with you. From TPM.com, "Cop Expert: Why Sandra Bland's Arrest Was Legal But Not Good Policing:

And yet you fail to quote what he says that you think disagrees with me. :doh
Lame.
Again you are just showing you are not paying attention to what you read.
He did not say he accelerated to catch up to her, which is what our disagreement about acceleration was.

Besides that ...
1. You are attempting an argument from authority . That is a logical fallacy, doesn't fly, and places your argument in the column of invalid.
2. Nothing he said dispels the information already provided in the threads regarding this subject and has actually been shown to be wrong, as a person can be commanded to extinguish their cigarette, or separated from it for the various reason already stated. (Weapon, cover for odors, etc...)

Quoted for emphasis on the author's credibility.

:doh:lamo:doh
That is not credibility.
That is opinion that even he recognizes is irrelevant to the legality of the Officer's actions.

In conclusion and thus ending my participating in this thread, from the article:

Her arrest, like the confrontations that led up to it, may have been lawful, but it was entirely avoidable had Encinia chosen a different approach.

:doh
Again, irrelevant to the legality of his actions, which is what I keep saying.
Avoidable? iLOL
He recognizes that the Officer saw activity that caused him to be suspicious.
You do not avoid those suspicions.
So the only thing really avoidable would have to have come from her, and she just wasn't cooperating, which is what escalated it.

 

[Moot]

Actually, no. He noticed her agitation, when she demonstrated her distaste for him stopping her for failing to signal her lane change, a lane change, which she had to make because the cop was parked on the side of the roadway. I can't speak for this state, but in Virginia, if the cop has someone pulled over, and you are driving in the right lane next to where the cop is stopped, you must safely pull over into the left lane, but if the left lane is filled with traffic, you won't be able to pull over, but you must proceed slowly by the cop, just in case he steps out into the roadway, which has occurred in my case, several times.

He flashed his lights after she changed lanes to let him pass. She was upset because he pulled her over that, not because she had distaste for him.

 

[bicycleman]

He flashed his lights after she changed lanes to let him pass. She was upset because he pulled her over that, not because she had distaste for him.

I know of drivers, who have been pulled over for hogging the left (passing) lane. It is a Virginia state law, not to hog the passing lane, but it is not well enforced. It only depends on the officer.

 

[bicycleman]

He flashed his lights after she changed lanes to let him pass. She was upset because he pulled her over that, not because she had distaste for him.

But her distaste became apparent as the argument ensued. I think that both parties could have handled it a bit differently.

 

[nota bene]

I think everybody gets upset when pulled over. I also think that just about everybody knows how to behave when pulled over, especially those who've been pulled over many times, as Bland had been.

 

[Thoreau72]

With all due respect sir, you HAVE ALREADY jumped to conclusions. :mrgreen:

How did I jump to conclusions? Where? No. The EVIDENCE DOES indicate suicide.

1) Comments about PTSD and depression.
2) Scarred Wrists
3) Apparent suicide.

Evidence indicates suicide.

I am not the one claiming murder with 0 evidence of murder (no defensive wounds, no motive, no video, and a claim that a $10 trash can is out of place in a low budget operation).[/QUOTE]

You reckon the wrist damage might have been caused by the handcuffs?

 

[Thoreau72]

Everyone knows what the cops should do until they are in the situation themselves

I make no claim to "know what the cops should do", never have. I frequently criticize poor public policy that makes the cops do bad things, but I never tell them what to do. I criticize poor law, I don't criticize the cops themselves, except when they deserve it. Which is too damn frequently IMO.

 

[Moot]

But her distaste became apparent as the argument ensued. I think that both parties could have handled it a bit differently.

If only Bland had known the behavior of the officer would lead to her own death, she probably would've behaved differently.

 

[nota bene]

If only Bland had known the behavior of the officer would lead to her own death, she probably would've behaved differently.

Her own behaviors led to her death. Bland chose to kill herself.

 

[Thoreau72]

I know of drivers, who have been pulled over for hogging the left (passing) lane. It is a Virginia state law, not to hog the passing lane, but it is not well enforced. It only depends on the officer.

If I was a cop, I would be pulling them over all the time here in Florida. That's my pet peeve, riding in the left lane without turning, at the speed limit or below, when you can see people behind you (assuming you know what the mirror is for). :mrgreen:

 

[Thoreau72]

Everyone knows what the cops should do until they are in the situation themselves

That sir, is a fallacy.

All this talk about various fallacies here at DP today kinda got me in the spirit. :mrgreen:

Everybody doesn't think that way.

 

[roguenuke]

So to rephrase, "There was nothing illegal about him ordering her to put out the cigarette."

Can we then infer that there would be nothing illegal about him ordering her to pour the water out of her cup. There would be nothing illegal about him ordering her to remove an article of clothing. Nothing illegal at all. Actually, like the President, when the police officer does it, it's not illegal.

Got it!

Unless he could articulate why he had her do any of those things specifically, then they would not be lawful orders. Having her pour out a cup of water would not have any rational purpose. Should she follow it? Yes. But then I'd sue him and the department. No reason for her to do such an action related to law enforcement, not that could reasonably be articulated. Now, if she had a cup of water or anything she was drinking from in her hands as she was getting the ticket, he could reasonably ask/order her to put it down while they dealt with that. If she refused, then that could be reason to remove her from the car too. Removing her clothes is completely different and is obviously not a lawful order in the vast majority of cases (would be different if there was a female cop there or emergency personnel and they needed to check something, although it should wait til they are in a more secure environment rather than outside).

 

[blackjack50]

How did I jump to conclusions? Where? No. The EVIDENCE DOES indicate suicide.

1) Comments about PTSD and depression.
2) Scarred Wrists
3) Apparent suicide.

Evidence indicates suicide.

I am not the one claiming murder with 0 evidence of murder (no defensive wounds, no motive, no video, and a claim that a $10 trash can is out of place in a low budget operation).

You reckon the wrist damage might have been caused by the handcuffs?[/QUOTE]

The 2-4 week old wrist damage?????? No. It wasn't caused by the handcuffs.

 

[blackjack50]

I make no claim to "know what the cops should do", never have. I frequently criticize poor public policy that makes the cops do bad things, but I never tell them what to do. I criticize poor law, I don't criticize the cops themselves, except when they deserve it. Which is too damn frequently IMO.

Especially when you don't even use evidence to determine the cops did something wrong.

 

[blackjack50]

That sir, is a fallacy.

All this talk about various fallacies here at DP today kinda got me in the spirit. :mrgreen:

Everybody doesn't think that way.

You already responded to my post.

Additionally

That was an intentional exaggeration. Often times people claim the cops should do XYX, but then if they themselves were placed in that situation? Their reaction would ultimately be to not do their job and fail at being a cop.