Exploding the Self-Esteem Myth

[Renae]

my kids were in competitive sports, and non competitive. there's time and place for both. i feel sorry for your son, you don't seem to be a very sympathetic parent. when a kid is five, there's nothing wrong with everyone getting a trophy. introducing them to sports and allowing them to participate in physical activity, learn rules and team work in a non competitive environment is a positive thing. there's plenty of time for competiveness.

I don't believe in coddling children. I feel bad your kids are so sheltered, they will be less prepared for life later on.

 

[rivrrat]

Sports are competitive--that's what sport is.

That's not true. There are plenty of non-competitive sports. I'm not a competitive person, I hate team sports. But there's no way you could say that I don't do sports. (martial arts, kayaking, rafting, whitewater boogie boarding, snowboarding, rock climbing, caving, surfing, scuba diving, hiking) The difference is, you're setting a goal for yourself and trying to reach it.

That's not to say that none of those sports *could* be competitive. They could be in certain circumstances. But they are not inherently so.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

I don't believe in coddling children. I feel bad your kids are so sheltered, they will be less prepared for life later on.

Oh good gracious.
It's funny to read this argument because it's hinging on SPORTS - as if being in sports somehow prepares kids for the future?

You know what sports did to my 2nd son - on top of terrifying him because of their decision to group them based on age - it made him into a self centered brat. Quite a few times, when I'd tell him to do chores or something, he told me "I don't have to do that . . . I play football" and things like that. His attitude in school plummeted, so did his grades. He hung around with his football friends and started to become a bully (yes, eventhough he was smaller than other kids)

Since he *use* to be a bad troublemaker the choice to let him play sports was reversing the positive changes that we all worked hard to achieve.
If he didn't become too scared to play - I would have still taken him out because he was turning into a prick about it.

 

[Tucker Case]

You get exersize in competative sports too ya know. What a dumb question Tucker.

But the comment that you made was that non-competitive sports were a waste of "time, effort, and money". It wasn't a claim that competitive sports were better than non-competitive ones It was a claim that non-competitive sports are worthless (which is what a waste of time effort and money would mean in a very literal sense).

So, since you acknowledge the value of exercise in non-competitive sports, it makes your initial comment false by your own reckoning. i.e. non-competitive sports are, at the very least, worth the time and effort (because that is the exercise part )

Congratulations on proving that, while my question may hvae been dumb, your initial comment and subsequent answer to that question were both dumber by 10-fold.

 

[Renae]

But the comment that you made was that non-competitive sports were a waste of "time, effort, and money". It wasn't a claim that competitive sports were better than non-competitive ones It was a claim that non-competitive sports are worthless (which is what a waste of time effort and money would mean in a very literal sense).

So, since you acknowledge the value of exercise in non-competitive sports, it makes your initial comment false by your own reckoning. i.e. non-competitive sports are, at the very least, worth the time and effort (because that is the exercise part )

Congratulations on proving that, while my question may hvae been dumb, your initial comment and subsequent answer to that question were both dumber by 10-fold.

More Tucker simplicity. Take something someone says, find some semantic point to show the person is wrong/hypocrit and then derail the thread with pettiness.

Exersize at the cost of the values I believe competative sports provide that non-competative do not, is not worth the effort, the time or the money. Carry on with your petty attempts to cast my comments in a way that you can "pick apart". I'll just keep smacking you down.

 

[liblady]

I don't believe in coddling children. I feel bad your kids are so sheltered, they will be less prepared for life later on.

my kids are grown, and they weren't coddled, they were loved and nurtured. they are also each very different and required different things from us. both very bright, one highly athletic and one not. they are now wonderful adults.

 

[rivrrat]

More Tucker simplicity. Take something someone says, find some semantic point to show the person is wrong/hypocrit and then derail the thread with pettiness.

Exersize at the cost of the values I believe competative sports provide that non-competative do not, is not worth the effort, the time or the money. Carry on with your petty attempts to cast my comments in a way that you can "pick apart". I'll just keep smacking you down.

As I've pointed out, non-competitive sports have successes and failures just like competive ones.

 

[Tucker Case]

More Tucker simplicity. Take something someone says, find some semantic point to show the person is wrong/hypocrit and then derail the thread with pettiness.

Actually, I asked a specific question which you just answered. Your problem is that you didn't want to answer it honestly.

Exersize at the cost of the values I believe competative sports provide that non-competative do not, is not worth the effort, the time or the money. Carry on with your petty attempts to cast my comments in a way that you can "pick apart".

See, the hilarity here is that my question was "So the exercise aspect is irrelevant?"

What you've just said above can be summed up as having answered the question as "Yes. The exercise aspect is Irrelevant because I think that the values competitive sports provide are not provided by non-competitive sports and I will not compromise those values by focusing on the exercise aspect. The competitive aspects are more important to me that the exercise aspects."

You could have just answered the question that way, but instead you dodged the question and have tried to make it about me.

My advice is that in the future your approach to debate should take a more conservative "personal responsibility" stance instead the liberal "victim card" that typically permeates your responses.

I'll just keep smacking you down.

Playing the liberal victim card is exactly the opposite of smacking down

 

[Renae]

Actually, I asked a specific question which you just answered. Your problem is that you didn't want to answer it honestly.




See, the hilarity here is that my question was "So the exercise aspect is irrelevant?"

What you've just said above can be summed up as having answered the question as "Yes. The exercise aspect is Irrelevant because I think that the values competitive sports provide are not provided by non-competitive sports and I will not compromise those values by focusing on the exercise aspect. The competitive aspects are more important to me that the exercise aspects."

You could have just answered the question that way, but instead you dodged the question and have tried to make it about me.

My advice is that in the future your approach to debate should take a more conservative "personal responsibility" stance instead the liberal "victim card" that typically permeates your responses.



Playing the liberal victim card is exactly the opposite of smacking down

Don't respond, or post anything to me in the future Tucker, you aren't worth responding to.

 

[Tucker Case]

Don't respond, or post anything to me in the future Tucker, you aren't worth responding to.

Sorry, not going to happen. :lol:

 

[Renae]

As I've pointed out, non-competitive sports have successes and failures just like competive ones.

Now, are we talking about the same thing is the question.

I'm talking about No-Score Soccer, baseball and the like. Not activities that lack a competative system.

 

[rivrrat]

Now, are we talking about the same thing is the question.

I'm talking about No-Score Soccer, baseball and the like. Not activities that lack a competative system.

I've never heard of no-score soccer. I'm talking about sports that are not team sports. That, in and of themselves, are not competitive. Martial Arts, Dance, Hiking, Kayaking, Skateboarding, Snowboarding, Skiing, Archery, Climbing, Surfing, etc. Those are what are generally consider "non-competitive sports" because they are not team sports, they're individual sports. That's not to say they cannot be competive under certain circumstances, but they are not inherently so. Team sports are inherently competitive.

If you're talking about "no-score soccer"... which doesn't exactly make any sense to me... then I agree with you. But if you're talking about sports that are just not inherently competitive, then I very much disagree with what you've chosen to do and think that you'd be denying your child the opportunity to excel at something that could be a lot of fun for them.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Now, are we talking about the same thing is the question.

I'm talking about No-Score Soccer, baseball and the like. Not activities that lack a competative system.

Haha, soccer. A great example of how parents get more involved than the kids and ruin it for everyone.

Now - Rivrrat is not but I am talking about no-score soccer and no-score football.
In this sense they're played for the act of playing and the fun - not for the act of going to a championship and competing for a trophy.

They're not *for* everyone but are great for kids who want to play but who cannot handle things that come along with competition - as with my oldest who has aspergers but still wants to be a on a team and play a game.

Instead of their goal being "beat the other team, win win win" its' more like "let's just get together and have fun" - which is more than fine by me. It's more akin to kids in the neighborhood playing a game of self-organized street hockey or something of that nature.

 

[Renae]

I've never heard of no-score soccer. I'm talking about sports that are not team sports. That, in and of themselves, are not competitive. Martial Arts, Dance, Hiking, Kayaking, Skateboarding, Snowboarding, Skiing, Archery, Climbing, Surfing, etc. Those are what are generally consider "non-competitive sports" because they are not team sports, they're individual sports. That's not to say they cannot be competive under certain circumstances, but they are not inherently so. Team sports are inherently competitive.

If you're talking about "no-score soccer"... which doesn't exactly make any sense to me... then I agree with you. But if you're talking about sports that are just not inherently competitive, then I very much disagree with what you've chosen to do and think that you'd be denying your child the opportunity to excel at something that could be a lot of fun for them.

I figured we were having a failure to communicate situation.

I am ONLY talking about Competative Sports that are artificially "Non-Competative". If my son want's do any or all the activities you mentioned, ACES!

Welcome to Sportball! A Non-Competitive Sports program for children 16 months to 8 years old! Stuff like this makes me GAG.

Fire & Hammer: Are Non-competitive Sports Counterproductive? kinda sums up my attitude pretty well.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

I figured we were having a failure to communicate situation.

I am ONLY talking about Competative Sports that are artificially "Non-Competative". If my son want's do any or all the activities you mentioned, ACES!

Welcome to Sportball! A Non-Competitive Sports program for children 16 months to 8 years old! Stuff like this makes me GAG.

Fire & Hammer: Are Non-competitive Sports Counterproductive? kinda sums up my attitude pretty well.

Why?

My son has physical and developmental issues that have stunted his growth and curbed his actual physical and mental ability to participate in a fast-paced competitive sport. He simply cannot handle it.

What's wrong with him still being involved with a team-sport for fun?

According to your attitude - he can't play football because he's not as big or as quick as the other kids his age . . . which is bull****.

 

[liblady]

Why?

My son has physical and developmental issues that have stunted his growth and curbed his actual physical and mental ability to participate in a fast-paced competitive sport. He simply cannot handle it.

What's wrong with him still being involved with a team-sport for fun?





































































According to your attitude - he can't play football because he's not as big or as quick as the other kids his age . . . which is bull****.

mr. v......what is wrong woth young kids playing non competitive sports? good lord, 8 is very young, and they certainly don't need to be crushed at that age.

 

[Renae]

mr. v......what is wrong woth young kids playing non competitive sports? good lord, 8 is very young, and they certainly don't need to be crushed at that age.

This is the Coddling children part I was talking about, parents afraid poor little johnny might feel bad they just cannot handle it at all.


On a side note, is it JUST my PC or did your quote have like way too much white space?

 

[Renae]

Why?

My son has physical and developmental issues that have stunted his growth and curbed his actual physical and mental ability to participate in a fast-paced competitive sport. He simply cannot handle it.

What's wrong with him still being involved with a team-sport for fun?

According to your attitude - he can't play football because he's not as big or as quick as the other kids his age . . . which is bull****.

You son isn't normal, he has issues that require adjustments... I'm sorry you have to deal with these, and I will pray for you both, but you damned well know I wasn't talking about a child with special needs.

 

[liblady]

This is the Coddling children part I was talking about, parents afraid poor little johnny might feel bad they just cannot handle it at all.


On a side note, is it JUST my PC or did your quote have like way too much white space?

too much white space, i have no idea what happened. our definition of coddling is very different, evidently.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

You son isn't normal, he has issues that require adjustments... I'm sorry you have to deal with these, and I will pray for you both, but you damned well know I wasn't talking about a child with special needs.

What you are doing is assuming that all children who participate in these sports could actually, otherwise, handle the more competitive ones when they can't.
It's not *just* there because a few parents are afraid their kids will get hurt - they're there so kids who cannot handle more advanced play can still play.
That it the purpose.

Sure - some parents are afraid, some parents don't like the competitive nature and tension and all that - some parent's chose non-competitive because they think it's better for their psyche. . . these people will be offended by competitive sports and have the same type of reaction against the competitive atmosphere that you have against non-competitive sports. They disaprove of your preference as much as you disaprove of theirs and these people are definitely parent's of kid's on my son's team. (but that's not everyone).

Just keep in mind that a lot of parents and kids don't have options and not everyone chooses these organized sports purely for those psychological reason.

The only real problem I had with competitive football when my kids were both in it is that it wasn't really family-friendly. I had thought, before they joined, that because they were both young (7 and 9) at the time that they'd practice and play on the weekends mostly - and practice *only* in the evening if they met during the week. But that's not so.
Practice was twice a week in the evening during the week - they expressly didn't do any practices on the weekend.

Also, both of us wanted to attend every game - but we couldn't because away games were quite *away* and they also had them late into night and during the week. (Like - a late night game would go to 11:00 on Thursday).
It was very hectice and disruptive, the other kids lost playtime and everyone lost sleep and our routine was just seriously interrupted.

A kid cannot do that if they're just wanting to play for fun - that is purely for people who are serious, hardcore, about it.

 

[German guy]

I've not read all postings in this thread, just the beginning and the last few.

A question that comes to mind is if there is a connection between self-esteem, ethical/respectful behavior towards others and inclination to embrace authorities.

In Germany prior to WW2, a kind of education technique was en vogue, especially among conservative circles, which was later called "dark education" by critics: Its basic tenet is that the will of the child needs to be broken with force, including physical violence if necessary, at the age of 3. When the kid starts developing a will, expressing wishes, then the parents must violently punish the child for doing that, until it stops. Allegedly, so believed proponents of that education method, this is the only way to create a personality that will "fit in" in later life, be modest, productive and industrious.

Critics, psychologists in the 60s who examined this, found that this dark education will lead to a crippled sense of self-esteem with the side effect that the victims of this education are extremely susceptible to authority, which they will easily accept and never question. They develop a "biker-mentality": Kick down on those you think are lower than you, and buckle down towards those you perceive above you. They feel small as individuals, and feel the desperate need to become part of something larger, which they can only achieve by embracing authority. This logic of obedience even completely overrides moral and ethical standards in these victims of dark education, and sense for individual responsibility -- they don't have a sufficient amount of self-esteem to even feel responsible for anything. Some say this alone explains a large part of the events that happened under Nazi rule -- "I just followed orders" was the common defense of many Nazi slaughterers, and many of them actually believed that, felt completely innocent, because it was simply unthinkeable for them to question orders and authority.

Just a thought that came up. Not sure how this fits into this debate.

 

[lizzie]

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A question that comes to mind is if there is a connection between self-esteem, ethical/respectful behavior towards others and inclination to embrace authorities.

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I’m pretty certain there is, as I believe children who are raised in authoritative environments tend to portray more respectful behaviors than others. That being said (and I was raised this way), it took me a long time to overcome my self-esteem issues, but I am glad I was raised the way I was. Any type of child-rearing can be taken too far, but you have to look at the long term picture and at the coping abilities of the individual.

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In Germany prior to WW2, a kind of education technique was en vogue, especially among conservative circles, which was later called "dark education" by critics: Its basic tenet is that the will of the child needs to be broken with force, including physical violence if necessary, at the age of 3.

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Geez, I’m glad my grandfather came over here from Germany in 1907.:mrgreen:

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This logic of obedience even completely overrides moral and ethical standards in these victims of dark education, and sense for individual responsibility -- they don't have a sufficient amount of self-esteem to even feel responsible for anything. Some say this alone explains a large part of the events that happened under Nazi rule -- "I just followed orders" was the common defense of many Nazi slaughterers, and many of them actually believed that, felt completely innocent, because it was simply unthinkeable for them to question orders and authority.

Just a thought that came up. Not sure how this fits into this debate.

I honestly believe there’s much more to the Nazi issue than this one part of their culture, although it could very well be related. You will see the same feeling of disconnectedness and lack of feeling responsible in many post-war situations or other traumatic events.

Imo, it fits very well into the debate. We are all products of our environments and self-esteem is most certainly related to childhood events and rearing.

 

[Mell]

''Falsely telling a child they are "Special"''

All children are special. It would not be a lie, to tell a child (s)he is special.

In fact, all peolple are special. The is something special about every person. It is a pity, that all people do not realise how special they are, because happiness is valuable. Feeling otherwise is a waste of the short time we are alive for.

 

[Mell]

The main problem most/many people have, is trying to get hold of that elusive thing called happiness. We try everything to catch it. More money, more toys, more sex, more food, more power, more drugs... and still many of us fail, just because we cant love ourselves the way we are. When we cant love ourselves, we spend so much time and money trying to distract ourselves from the lack of self love an happiness. It would be more productive and lasting to address our self esteem issues, than spend unreasonable amounts of time, energy, money... doing what wont solve the real problem.