Exploding the Self-Esteem Myth

[Mell]

Id say good self esteem is being emotionally balanced. It is not the same as being aggressive, arrogant... It can be complicated and difficult for some to achieve emotional balance, for various reasons. Also, some methods of improving self esteem are more effective than other.

Everybody should make the efford to become more balanced emotionally and thus become happier. It is nonsense to say otherwise, even if you have not yet managed to achieve balance yourself, despite all the helpful books, TV shows, therapists... out there.

A person also has to be willing to try things in the first place, for them to work. Some resist taking care of what is going on inside their heads, for various reason.

 

[MaggieD]

self-esteem ( ) n. Pride in oneself; self-respect.

How could anything be wrong with instilling pride in one's self and self-respect? There are ways to promote it in children that aren't useful, that's for sure. It's up to the parent and society at large to know the difference, BUT: someone without self-esteem is a very unhappy and unproductive individual.

 

[Mell]

I am, even without your permission. Besides, what's wrong with teaching children how to deal with failure???

Id say teaching them how to deal with failure is vital to their success. Those who achieve big in life, are those who know how to deal with failure and then try again. But, I think people will argue with some points about this, without considering it completely, and/or reasonably.

Everybody will fail at something now and again, so learning how to handle it is useful.

 

[MaggieD]

Mel said: "A person also has to be willing to try things in the first place, for them to work." There are plenty of studies showing you are absolutely correct.

If a parent keeps telling a child of average intelligence that they're brilliant, studies show the child will stop trying new things . . . or things at which they might fail. Not a good thing. Teaching children it's "okay to fail" is a very powerful lesson.

 

[rivrrat]

Any chance you want to discuss my issue with the false self-esteem bs or do you just want to make assumptions that you created in your own mind?

I have no problem with people being happy, or having earned self-esteem. Falsely telling a child they are "Special" just because they are, or giving all the kids a "trophy" so no one "feels bad about themselves". It's all poppycock nonsense that denies children the chance to learn how to deal with failure.

I agree wholeheartedly with the trophy thing. It's utter nonesense and only teaches kids that 1) If they work hard, they won't be rewarded any more than someone who doesn't work hard and 2)they don't have to work hard to get the same reward as someone who does work hard. It's infuriating.

However, I see nothing wrong with parents telling their kids that they're special.

I feel the same way you do - I feel that people should feel good about what they accomplish without any extra butter.
If you butter kids up too much and too often they'll expect it more and more . . . and it will eventually work against you, without that extra butter they'll feel like they're a failure.

Especially when it comes to some type of an accomplished task that individuals had to put time into and work towards to achieve. . . like the awards thing you mentioned. When I was in orchestra in JR high (8th grade) we had our yearly state-wide competition. A lot of us practiced our asses off for weeks before the competition - 5 of us made it into the top 3 of our category (which was age/instrument) and two of us won first place (yep - me in violin, my friend in Cello) . . . and on the buss going home our teacher gave us our awards - She gave out the real awards first to those who legitimately earned it. But then she gave out 1st place awards to everyone because "I don't want anyone to go home feeling left out"

WTF! That pissed me off - I *earned* my first place by working hard . . . and by the time we got home I had nothing real to show for it except for a stupid award that everyone else was given. . . what was the point of busting my ass for weeks before the competition if we were all just going to be gifted awards in the end? That means that the kids who didn't practice much at all - even JC who didn't even WANT to be in the compitition - went home and got praise from Mom and Dad. There was no effort on my teacher's behalf to actually inform the parents "I gave your child an honorary award."

I never felt so smacked in the face before. . . I went home and didn't even tell my parents how it went - I didn't see the point in bragging on my 'equality accomplishment'

I was steaming for weeks - I really hated my teacher after that. In the effort to make everyone feel "equal and happy about their selves" she really ****ed over the students who DID really work hard and hurt *our* feelings instead.

Obviously it still pisses me off.

Holy ****ing ****. :shock: I would have irate too. That's just bull**** and any teacher who does that, IMO, should not be teacher at all. That teaches nothing but bad things to the students that worked hard and the students who didn't.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

I agree wholeheartedly with the trophy thing. It's utter nonesense and only teaches kids that 1) If they work hard, they won't be rewarded any more than someone who doesn't work hard and 2)they don't have to work hard to get the same reward as someone who does work hard. It's infuriating.

However, I see nothing wrong with parents telling their kids that they're special.



Holy ****ing ****. :shock: I would have irate too. That's just bull**** and any teacher who does that, IMO, should not be teacher at all. That teaches nothing but bad things to the students that worked hard and the students who didn't.

Yes - there's a time and place. Telling your child they're great and special IS encouragement to DO good - and then there's the issue I went through that I posted which is very different on the scale of confidence boosting.

I think it really depends on the nature of the child when it comes to what's "butter" and what's not. . . just like punishments and everything else, each child is different and will respond differently.

 

[Ziggae_6]

I feel the same way you do - I feel that people should feel good about what they accomplish without any extra butter.
If you butter kids up too much and too often they'll expect it more and more . . . and it will eventually work against you, without that extra butter they'll feel like they're a failure.

Especially when it comes to some type of an accomplished task that individuals had to put time into and work towards to achieve. . . like the awards thing you mentioned. When I was in orchestra in JR high (8th grade) we had our yearly state-wide competition. A lot of us practiced our asses off for weeks before the competition - 5 of us made it into the top 3 of our category (which was age/instrument) and two of us won first place (yep - me in violin, my friend in Cello) . . . and on the buss going home our teacher gave us our awards - She gave out the real awards first to those who legitimately earned it. But then she gave out 1st place awards to everyone because "I don't want anyone to go home feeling left out"

WTF! That pissed me off - I *earned* my first place by working hard . . . and by the time we got home I had nothing real to show for it except for a stupid award that everyone else was given. . . what was the point of busting my ass for weeks before the competition if we were all just going to be gifted awards in the end? That means that the kids who didn't practice much at all - even JC who didn't even WANT to be in the compitition - went home and got praise from Mom and Dad. There was no effort on my teacher's behalf to actually inform the parents "I gave your child an honorary award."

I never felt so smacked in the face before. . . I went home and didn't even tell my parents how it went - I didn't see the point in bragging on my 'equality accomplishment'

I was steaming for weeks - I really hated my teacher after that. In the effort to make everyone feel "equal and happy about their selves" she really ****ed over the students who DID really work hard and hurt *our* feelings instead.

Obviously it still pisses me off.

I'm glad you gave an example. It does show where you're coming from. I think you would feel that way as a child. I'd like to think that as you gotten older, you recognized the importance of your hard work and the success and understand that you can take personal pride in what you did and accomplished regardless of the outside award (which you got anyway). Plus you can use that as an example to how you would be successful now.

Your concern seems to be more that others got it too and you think it should be exclusive. And it is! You won and pushed yourself to your best (I'm assuming). At that age you also want to encourage kids to give their best effort and perform well. On that day you performed well and won. Effort alone doesn't always give the victory--you may be blessed with certain talents and abilities. That is not to slight what you did. You know what you did! You shined on that competitive day! Don't be mad about what happened! See the great results you produced on that day! Do you still play your instrument? I hope you do. Regardless of what the teacher said, did your parents still congradulate you on your hard work? (I hope they did!)

For the teacher, it may also be recognizing that people came to practice, did the best they could and should be encouraged for that. Now that I'm older I can see where I have been successful and other people not so much but that they tackled some pretty tough odds with things they faced in their family and environment. We see things pretty plain sometimes. Everyone competes, the best win and we say effort got them there. Yes and no. Many things go into that victory and where each person started, what they faced and what they were able to do with what they had. Its complicated. Just like they are finding that we may inherit some abilities genetically although most also believe that the family situation we're in can either be for or against some of our genetic gifts and deficits.

I've heard people talk about learning to deal with failure. Having a supportive environment that actually "teaches" you to deal with it can go a long way. Having failures can be learning moments but it doesn't make YOU a failure. You can have parents that constantly see everything as a chance to teach and others who really don't try. I can say this as my son is older and things I talked to him about that he basically ignored has shown up in a lot of his behavior as an adult. Sometimes as a parent you think you don't have that much influence, but its there!

 

[Renae]

I refused to allow my son to play "non-competative" sports. There is no greater teacher than failure, and no sweeter reward than success. If you play hard, and lose, you feel like ****, you get back up, and you try harder. If you win, you want to KEEP winning.

That induces the real self-esteem, the type that doesn't rely on BS from others. And that's what I rail against.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Per how Mrs. D handled it. . .
If she had given them a different honorary award for "participation" or what not - that would have been great. I think what really made it sour is that she made no effort to denote the difference between the hard-earned award winners and those who were gifted the award.

It wasn't just me, either - several people earned 2nd and 3rd place and had silver and bronze awards. But the teacher gave out gold honorary awards. So how did those other students feel when they were the only ones with 2nd and 3rd place medals at the end of the day? If I was pissed - I imaging they were crushed.

There - therapy - now I can grow up. LOL

I refused to allow my son to play "non-competative" sports. There is no greater teacher than failure, and no sweeter reward than success. If you play hard, and lose, you feel like ****, you get back up, and you try harder. If you win, you want to KEEP winning.

That induces the real self-esteem, the type that doesn't rely on BS from others. And that's what I rail against.

Hmm - why not?

While I love it when my kids to do good and have something to show for it. . . that doesn't mean that everything they do *needs* to be competitive. . . why can't it be just for fun (which is the point of non-competitive sports).

My oldest will probably never be in competitive sports - he loves to play but because of his problems he can't play on a competitive level. He has too many problems beyond his control that will hold him back. . . so letting him play football just for fun is great. He still has a good time, feels good that he played, gets physical exercise and takes it seriously.

 

[rivrrat]

I refused to allow my son to play "non-competative" sports.

Well that's bull****, IMO. You should encourage and help your son to do whatever it is he WANTS to do. Geez. If he doesn't WANT to play a certain sport and you push him to, he's only going to know unhappiness and being forced to work hard for no reason whatsoever except to 'make dad happy'. WTF kind of lesson is that?

He should do what he wants, why would you be against that?

 

[liblady]

I am, even without your permission. Besides, what's wrong with teaching children how to deal with failure???

not a thing, but you don't have to shove failure down their throats. there are plenty of natural opportunities to teach them about failure.

 

[liblady]

I feel the same way you do - I feel that people should feel good about what they accomplish without any extra butter.
If you butter kids up too much and too often they'll expect it more and more . . . and it will eventually work against you, without that extra butter they'll feel like they're a failure.

Especially when it comes to some type of an accomplished task that individuals had to put time into and work towards to achieve. . . like the awards thing you mentioned. When I was in orchestra in JR high (8th grade) we had our yearly state-wide competition. A lot of us practiced our asses off for weeks before the competition - 5 of us made it into the top 3 of our category (which was age/instrument) and two of us won first place (yep - me in violin, my friend in Cello) . . . and on the buss going home our teacher gave us our awards - She gave out the real awards first to those who legitimately earned it. But then she gave out 1st place awards to everyone because "I don't want anyone to go home feeling left out"

WTF! That pissed me off - I *earned* my first place by working hard . . . and by the time we got home I had nothing real to show for it except for a stupid award that everyone else was given. . . what was the point of busting my ass for weeks before the competition if we were all just going to be gifted awards in the end? That means that the kids who didn't practice much at all - even JC who didn't even WANT to be in the compitition - went home and got praise from Mom and Dad. There was no effort on my teacher's behalf to actually inform the parents "I gave your child an honorary award."

I never felt so smacked in the face before. . . I went home and didn't even tell my parents how it went - I didn't see the point in bragging on my 'equality accomplishment'

I was steaming for weeks - I really hated my teacher after that. In the effort to make everyone feel "equal and happy about their selves" she really ****ed over the students who DID really work hard and hurt *our* feelings instead.

Obviously it still pisses me off.

if you got your legitimate award first, and the teacher said she didn't want anyone to feel left out, why in the world were you pissed? everyone knew you won the award. and you said your teacher gave you the real one, and then you said you had nothing to show for your accomplishment.......what? if you had self esteem you would not have cared....;-)

 

[Aunt Spiker]

if you got your legitimate award first, and the teacher said she didn't want anyone to feel left out, why in the world were you pissed? everyone knew you won the award. and you said your teacher gave you the real one, and then you said you had nothing to show for your accomplishment.......what? if you had self esteem you would not have cared....;-)

LOL

Don't try to make sense of me!

 

[Renae]

Well that's bull****, IMO. You should encourage and help your son to do whatever it is he WANTS to do. Geez. If he doesn't WANT to play a certain sport and you push him to, he's only going to know unhappiness and being forced to work hard for no reason whatsoever except to 'make dad happy'. WTF kind of lesson is that?

He should do what he wants, why would you be against that?

I AM the PARENT, he is the CHILD. I am not his friend, his buddy. I am his FATHER. That being said, it appears you jumped to wild crazy hyper-emotionalism based conclusion land.

If he wants to play Sports, he can play sports, but they will be sports that keep score, have winners and losers and he'll have to work at it. And I'll help him if he wants it.

Where did I say I would FORCE him to play a sport? I didn't, I merely stated I refused to allow him to participate in "non-competatite" activities.

I have asked that he try every sport that is available to him, at least one season. If he finds say, Baseball ain't his thing, aces. Maybe Track is, or Football. But he should give it a try.

Same rules apply for my daughter as well.

 

[Renae]

not a thing, but you don't have to shove failure down their throats. there are plenty of natural opportunities to teach them about failure.

Yes, I'm "shoving failure" down his throat.... :roll:

 

[liblady]

I AM the PARENT, he is the CHILD. I am not his friend, his buddy. I am his FATHER. That being said, it appears you jumped to wild crazy hyper-emotionalism based conclusion land.

If he wants to play Sports, he can play sports, but they will be sports that keep score, have winners and losers and he'll have to work at it. And I'll help him if he wants it.

Where did I say I would FORCE him to play a sport? I didn't, I merely stated I refused to allow him to participate in "non-competatite" activities.


I have asked that he try every sport that is available to him, at least one season. If he finds say, Baseball ain't his thing, aces. Maybe Track is, or Football. But he should give it a try.

you refuse to allow him to participate in non competitive activities? wth? reason?

 

[Ziggae_6]

I refused to allow my son to play "non-competative" sports. There is no greater teacher than failure, and no sweeter reward than success. If you play hard, and lose, you feel like ****, you get back up, and you try harder. If you win, you want to KEEP winning.

That induces the real self-esteem, the type that doesn't rely on BS from others. And that's what I rail against.

I think you're speaking for yourself. That worked for you. But your point is a little simplified. Sports are competitive--that's what sport is. At a younger age development, you don't need to stress the wins and losses. My son played soccer at five and its a great sport especially at that age. (they generally ran around in a scrum around the ball) But nobody cared whether they won or lost. It was just about introducing them to the sport at that point and learning the joy of the sport. Simply going out and getting beat constantly would not have produced better soccer players. Losing can spur people to get better or it also can turn them off from the sport. Sometimes it takes years before the kids develop their abilities and good coaching and supporting environment helps. (which increases self-esteem) The words for me is age appropriate and skills appropriate. I also encouraged my son to try various sports and let him gravitate toward what he enjoyed. On a personal note, I love baseball and loved to play it, but he sadly never got into it.

I think you are upset more about what produces "self-esteem". I really don't think you're against it. You should have started out with an article that produces evidence for that. The trouble is that what produces self-esteem in individuals vary. You definitely want your child to have it. The key is how do YOU produce it and grow it in your kid.

 

[rivrrat]

I AM the PARENT, he is the CHILD. I am not his friend, his buddy. I am his FATHER. That being said, it appears you jumped to wild crazy hyper-emotionalism based conclusion land.

If he wants to play Sports, he can play sports, but they will be sports that keep score, have winners and losers and he'll have to work at it. And I'll help him if he wants it.

Where did I say I would FORCE him to play a sport? I didn't, I merely stated I refused to allow him to participate in "non-competatite" activities.

I have asked that he try every sport that is available to him, at least one season. If he finds say, Baseball ain't his thing, aces. Maybe Track is, or Football. But he should give it a try.

Same rules apply for my daughter as well.

But why would you disallow the playing of non-competitive sports? Doesn't make any goddamn sense. They can be extremely fulfilling and there ARE successes and failures, only they are PERSONAL ones. Do you even realize what non-competitive sports are, really? All that really means is that they're not team sports. They are still sports. Physically and mentally challenging and full of successes and failures, one must have drive and determination to become good at them. Why would you want to deny them those things IF those are the sports they want to do? Archery? Kayaking? Hiking? Biking? Jesus. Go hike the ****ing Appalachian Trail and then try and tell me that you won't have either a feeling of failure or success. Go kayak over some waterfalls and tell me that you don't feel some feelings of failure and success. Skateboarding? Karate? Fishing? Dance?

Sheesh.

 

[Renae]

you refuse to allow him to participate in non competitive activities? wth? reason?

Because "non-Competative" sports IMHO are a waste of time, effort and money. A false sense "feel good" for parents that cannot face the thought of their child "feeling bad because he lost". I don't want my son to believe, falsly, that everyone is entitled to a reward "just for participating". That is a lesson I feel is detrimental to a child. I want him to learn the value of hardwork, teamwork, the bitter taste of defeat and the sweet nectar of success. Things you do not get when "everyone get's a trophy, everyone wins no one looses" namby pamby bs that comes with non-competative sports.

 

[rivrrat]

Because "non-Competative" sports IMHO are a waste of time, effort and money. A false sense "feel good" for parents that cannot face the thought of their child "feeling bad because he lost". I don't want my son to believe, falsly, that everyone is entitled to a reward "just for participating". That is a lesson I feel is detrimental to a child. I want him to learn the value of hardwork, teamwork, the bitter taste of defeat and the sweet nectar of success. Things you do not get when "everyone get's a trophy, everyone wins no one looses" namby pamby bs that comes with non-competative sports.

WTF? You're confused about what they are, then.

 

[liblady]

Because "non-Competative" sports IMHO are a waste of time, effort and money. A false sense "feel good" for parents that cannot face the thought of their child "feeling bad because he lost". I don't want my son to believe, falsly, that everyone is entitled to a reward "just for participating". That is a lesson I feel is detrimental to a child. I want him to learn the value of hardwork, teamwork, the bitter taste of defeat and the sweet nectar of success. Things you do not get when "everyone get's a trophy, everyone wins no one looses" namby pamby bs that comes with non-competative sports.

my kids were in competitive sports, and non competitive. there's time and place for both. i feel sorry for your son, you don't seem to be a very sympathetic parent. when a kid is five, there's nothing wrong with everyone getting a trophy. introducing them to sports and allowing them to participate in physical activity, learn rules and team work in a non competitive environment is a positive thing. there's plenty of time for competiveness.

 

[Tucker Case]

Because "non-Competative" sports IMHO are a waste of time, effort and money.

So the excercise aspect is irrelevent?

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Veering off a little
My 2nd son was in football when he was 7 and liked to play (it was a competitive league of sorts) but was terrified to play.

The reason was because they grouped kids according to age - he was in group with all the other 7 year olds but he was the smallest kid. So the coach thought he'd be a great 'scurry' guy and would try to get him to get down and bearcrawl under everyone to get the ball. Kids would fall on him, he was stepped on - it wasn't pleasant at all and ruined the fun.

I think that would have petrified any little kid - he never wanted to go back and I didn't force him.

 

[Ziggae_6]

Veering off a little
My 2nd son was in football when he was 7 and liked to play (it was a competitive league of sorts) but was terrified to play.

The reason was because they grouped kids according to age - he was in group with all the other 7 year olds but he was the smallest kid. So the coach thought he'd be a great 'scurry' guy and would try to get him to get down and bearcrawl under everyone to get the ball. Kids would fall on him, he was stepped on - it wasn't pleasant at all and ruined the fun.

I think that would have petrified any little kid - he never wanted to go back and I didn't force him.

That's funny. I had the opposite problem. My son was a pretty good size and leagues were arranged by size and weight. He would have had to play in a league where the kids were much older, so he didn't play organized football until middle school. However, I support the size and weight method. A little guy is at a tremendous disadvantage and would not be having fun at that age.

 

[Renae]

So the excercise aspect is irrelevent?

You get exersize in competative sports too ya know. What a dumb question Tucker.