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Ending Public Schools [W:961]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Yeah. You are a troll. Thanks for the confirmation.

How cute. Care to point anything out among what I said that you actually disagree with? In my longer post above that is.

I agreed with you completely. Then you call me a troll. Are you confused with your own values/beliefs?
 
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Re: Ending Public Schools

Crap, I edit a post on aphone and a laptop and it does not come out.

"When the protections came in, we could at least have numerous mechanisms for ensuring that our educational experience remained consistent and did not waver because a teacher, an administrator, or superintendent felt it necessary to think otherwise. They still fight against our needs on a regular basis, but because of the legal rights, we at least have a shot in making sure we don't get shafted. In the private institutions, on a regular basis already, you have some students that get services and others that do not, and there's nothing to stop them from saying the student who received services are going away. Again, many of these services can be very cheap to provide, but they take up some time on the front end, or challenge a view of thinking, and then they are undermined to whatever extent they can be. I am in regular communication with people that represent families with children who have these disabilities, and this is what they regularly tell me. At least if they get shafted too much, they have the ability to go into a school where that is not a legal option to remove services. They are legally binding, and families can sue if it goes far enough.

Even in the public sector we had a school official that liked to disobey the law and have meetings that did not include the parents (required by law) regarding whether or not the student will receive services. Group A (the legal team) said student X will qualify for a disability and be enrolled in special education. Group B, created outside legal jurisdiction, without parental input, and only with certain members of Group A, concluded otherwise. Because of this, and this happened to numerous families, Group B's "findings" ruled the day, and the child was denied services. It took government audits to conclude that this was illegal and was told to stop. It did not stop entirely, and now this individual heads a department of special education at another private university in this state, pumping out more teachers and special educators throughout this state. Such a scenario is easily replicated in a private institution, where it might make a courtesy meeting with the parents, and then behind the scenes, work against what the first group discussed. The difference is that the family just has to deal with it if it is a private institution with no additional legal requirements.

I'm sorry, Mister, but these are people's tendencies, and they are throughout the organizations, state agencies, and numerous private entities. The law protects us, but we still have to go through hell to make sure the law stays enforced. Without the law, and the tendencies that are routinely shown come out in full force. That's not imagination, that's just daily life for us."
 
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Re: Ending Public Schools

How cute. Care to point anything out among what I said that you actually disagree with? In my longer post above that is.

I agreed with you completely. Then you call me a troll. Are you confused with your own values/beliefs?
It is possible for you to agree with me completely but for the wrong reasons.
 
Re: Ending Public Schools

It is possible for you to agree with me completely but for the wrong reasons.

You're saying you don't have infinite laudatory praise for bigwig CEOs and their raping of the middle and lower classes? That automatically makes you a ****ing loonytoon liberal.

My beliefs, you see, may seem like an "exaggeration" of the American rightwing platform, but it's more like me saying what our platform is with complete honesty rather than sugarcoding it to sound better.
 
Re: Ending Public Schools

You're saying you don't have infinite laudatory praise for bigwig CEOs and their raping of the middle and lower classes? That automatically makes you a ****ing loonytoon liberal.

My beliefs, you see, may seem like an "exaggeration" of the American rightwing platform, but it's more like me saying what our platform is with complete honesty rather than sugarcoding it to sound better.
It is rare that I ignore anyone. I only have one other person on my ignore list.

You shall be number two.
 
Re: Ending Public Schools

Exactly, Mister. When these liberals say that education or training should ever be subsidized so that people with potential can more quickly use their abilities to become productive members of society, what they automatically mean is that they want a communist system worse than the USSR where some random leader forces everyone to pay for everyone else with respect to all goods and services. That is a very logical conclusion.

Our education system is now the making of a Communist system worse than the USSR?! Oh my!
 
Re: Ending Public Schools

Our education system is now the making of a Communist system worse than the USSR?! Oh my!

Yes. If you pay attention to what Mister said, wanting any subsidized education/training equates to wanting everyone to pay for any whimsical desire that you have, which I agree with completely.
 
Re: Ending Public Schools

Yes. If you pay attention to what Mister said, wanting any subsidized education/training equates to wanting everyone to pay for any whimsical desire that you have, which I agree with completely.

Universal education = every whimsical desire that one may have? Uhhh I'm pretty sure the education of society is a pretty serious matter and I don't see how that equates to everyone paying for any whimsical desire someone may have....
 
Re: Ending Public Schools

Universal education = every whimsical desire that one may have? Uhhh I'm pretty sure the education of society is a pretty serious matter and I don't see how that equates to everyone paying for any whimsical desire someone may have....
He is a troll. Don't feed the trolls.
 
Re: Ending Public Schools

Moderator's Warning:
The personal attacks stop NOW, this is your one and only warning.
 
Re: Ending Public Schools

I am personally a very big fan of ending the governmental monopoly on schools, though not for the same reason. I believe it's unConstitutional for the Federal Government to spend ANY money on education.

Just FYI, state and local governments have the most control over their respective school districts. You can argue that it's not within the federal government's purview to spend any money on education, but that doesn't take away the fact that state and local governments still control most of the funding and curricula. So what you have here is a complete non-sequitur.
 
Re: Ending Public Schools

Let me help you with that? Have you heard that some people do not complete school? They 'drop out". Are you aware that many students just go through the motions as they are passed from grade to grade to grade?
Thats silly a silly notion that kids are squandering their educations. In fact in reality you just stretching the idea to fit your assertion.


Really? Is that the point? Given that one-half of us do not pay any federal income taxes how is it working?
Yes the point is that everyone should contribute to society. If you pull public education out from underneath the population there will be zero people paying federal tax's. So yea its working better than your plan.


Maybe you should consider all of the other alternatives. Assuming you are are an employer your vision is extremely narrow. It is as if you are wearing (government) blinders.

We could do much better. We won't. But we could.
"wearing (government) blinders."? Did you hear that at the local militia meeting?

Well of course we can do better its just that your ideas are not better. In fact your ideas are regressive all the way back to pre-industrial age.


Funny though how you just totally ignore some ideas that I through at you. If your movement is going to talk the talk you should walk the walk. Right now anyone promoting the closing of public schools should pull their kids out of public schools. If it is a small minority movement it will have little or no effect on property tax. But if its a populous large movement there would be immediate effects in property tax's. The size of schools would shrink and along with it the costs. Take Cleveland for example along with urban decay the public schools have dwindled and the state monies going for Cleveland's public schools has dwindled as well. The over all effect is that less students and less schools equals less money from property tax going to public schools.

You do not need to force the end to public schools through rapid political force just put your money where your mouth is. Or do you expect the Government to do it for you?


None the less I would rather the population be educated rather than not. And so do most Americans. Most Americans do not want public schools closed so where does that leave you and your movement?
 
Re: Ending Public Schools

I began researching what is currently possible and found this:
coursera.org
Coursera offers free online courses from the top universities. The classes are chunked into 8-12 minute modules and can be mixed and matched to each student's needs. I found this while watching TED as I do every morning. TED offers, at no cost, the ability to listen to smart people sharing their views on specific topics.

We can educate ourselves and our children in far better ways than sitting them in classrooms and talking at them. Those of you who are contrarians take a look at TED and Coursera. Ditto for the rest of you who want to see what can be done today with desire and technology.
 
Re: Ending Public Schools

I began researching what is currently possible and found this:
coursera.org
Coursera offers free online courses from the top universities. The classes are chunked into 8-12 minute modules and can be mixed and matched to each student's needs. I found this while watching TED as I do every morning. TED offers, at no cost, the ability to listen to smart people sharing their views on specific topics.

We can educate ourselves and our children in far better ways than sitting them in classrooms and talking at them. Those of you who are contrarians take a look at TED and Coursera. Ditto for the rest of you who want to see what can be done today with desire and technology.

Thats great but not everyone has access to the internet. You should also look more into what you link: Outside of KPCB, Doerr also supports entrepreneurs focused on the environment, public education and alleviating global poverty. These include NewSchools.org, TechNet.org, the Climate Reality Project and ONE.org. Doerr is a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and a member of U.S. President Barack Obama’s Council on Jobs and Competitiveness.https://www.coursera.org/about/founders


“Higher education is ripe for innovation: it is too expensive and limited to a few,” KPCB Partner John Doerr said in a statement. “Coursera is unique in partnering with the best universities to offer free, global access to the world’s best teachers and courses. The potential is profound opportunities for personal — and economic — growth and development.” And seeing as Doerr is a long-time advocate of entrepreneurs working in public education and in 2009 was appointed to President Obama’s Economic Recovery Advisory Board to help the administration devise a way out of the country’s economic downturn, it’s safe to say he knows what he’s talking about. Online Education Startup Coursera Lands $16M From Kleiner & NEA, Adds John Doerr To Its Board | TechCrunch

Forum Post: Coursera.org! Free Online University, Stanford professors create free education for all | OccupyWallSt.org

Coursera is designed for adults, in fact you must be 18 or older to take a course. But public schools already are making use of the same type of technology that Coursera is using. And you can home school using the exact same technology. What is K12? Leader in Online Learning - Public, Private & Home School Curriculum | K12 | K12

Even though homeschoolers pay the same taxes that everyone else pays, the dollars that would be spent on them in a public school, an average of nearly $11,000 a year and rising, do not follow them. In per pupil spending alone, homeschoolers are saving the government over $22 billion a year.

Now, before you think I am complaining, let me assure you that this is the way most homeschoolers want things to be. I have personally lobbied against so-called Tebow bills in Oklahoma that would have provided public school extracurricular opportunities to homeschool students at taxpayer expense. We don't ask for government help because we don't want the government strings that come attached. We would, however, like for people to know that our decision to opt out of public school leaves more dollars for the other kids and saves you, the American taxpayer, a lot of money. And we'd like for our detractors to think about that the next time they criticize the choices we have made for our children's education.
How Homeschooling Saves Taxpayers Money - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com



Again the ball is in your court if you want to end public schools put your money where your mouth is, dont send your kids to public schools. It is not your place to tell any other parent what to do. Save the tax payers $11k a year and home school your kids. You do have kids right? I do but I send them to public schools, but I am not free loading as you put it though since I own my house and pay my tax's.
 
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Re: Ending Public Schools

He's trying to reduce the point I was making by taking an umbrella term and using specific conditions he would be aware of to then use his method of changing the term into something like "Broke Dick Child."

A completely offensive and disgusting term.
 
Re: Ending Public Schools

My feelings are not hurt. This is not about me. It is about a way of structuring education so that the greatest numbers of people get the education we want at a price we all can afford. Only free-market capitalism offers that possibility. There are no other methods that take advantage of what you know about you and what I know about me as we make our rational and irrational choices in education and in life.
Yeah - and the hell with those that aren't in the "greatest numbers of people". It's always that assumption in business - profit above all else. If that means throwing half the people under the bus it doesn't matter as long as the other half are making up the difference.
 
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Re: Ending Public Schools

I began researching what is currently possible and found this:
coursera.org
Coursera offers free online courses from the top universities. The classes are chunked into 8-12 minute modules and can be mixed and matched to each student's needs. I found this while watching TED as I do every morning. TED offers, at no cost, the ability to listen to smart people sharing their views on specific topics.

We can educate ourselves and our children in far better ways than sitting them in classrooms and talking at them. Those of you who are contrarians take a look at TED and Coursera. Ditto for the rest of you who want to see what can be done today with desire and technology.

Granted, TED is good. I use them myself. But even there you'll find limitations. Asking questions, for example is hard to do. And some people need more hands on, others have real trouble with technology. You may also look at success rates on line. Last time I looked, they had a far higher failure rate than face to face classes. But maybe that's improved. Still worth a look.
 
Re: Ending Public Schools

Does the freedom to choose your own path frighten you so much?

Today we buy very ordinary, uninspiring educational experiences in government run schools. Would you intentionally go to those classes if you had to pay for them yourself instead of asking me to pay for you? Would you do the same in any other area of your life? Would you go to the same uninspiring movie day after day after day as long as you didn't have to pay? Would you allow me to decide which movies you were going to see from childhood until age 24 as long as I was a nameless, faceless bureaucrat in government? If not then why would you want someone else to make your educational choices for you?

Why don't you want the freedom to choose your education for yourself?
That's pure BS. You can send your kid to any private school you like. This has been presented to you many times and you continue to ignore it - no doubt because you don't want to hear it or repeat it since it degrades your position.

As for "freedom to purchase" that's crap, too. Businesses give us a few choices that are convenient for them to offer and we must pick from their limited products. Anyone who's ever bought a computer understands this. How many options for an operating system do I have even now??? Three? And one of them is only if I sell my electronic soul to Apple Inc. That's not "freedom of choice" as you've tried to paint it. It's just business taking money from people for things they don't really want but are forced to put up with because they need it. If I need a shirt and want a yellow one but only blue or red are offered then I will not get the yellow shirt I wanted. Where's my freedom?


On the other hand, WE have government run schools and WE elect the people who run these schools - and it's not some mysterious, faceless Board of Directors in some far-off city. WE decide what WE want taught to a large extent. WE decide how much money to allow for that aspect of our community. Many libertarians and far right constantly want to make government into some kind of boogey man but government is nothing more or less than what WE make it --- including the schools. WE would be stupid to give up that power to some faceless company who's only reason for existence is to separate US from OUR money.
 
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Re: Ending Public Schools

But that is the way to bet and that is the way to structure society. Anything else ends in tyranny. Which, unsurprisingly, is where we are today.
And you have scientific evidence to this effect? Sociology? Genetics? Anthropology? Games Theory? NO?
Then it's just a bunch of mystical crap from another asocial group - and what else it new? :roll:
 
Re: Ending Public Schools

The problem that many of you have, typified by Mo, is a failure to recognize that the invisible hand is a shortcut way of saying that each of us is free to choose for ourselves, among other things, how we will earn our living, what we will buy and when.
Some capitalists are so far gone they can barely understand that other people exist except as resources to be exploited. When we ignore those around us in such a fashion and dismiss them out-of-hand often enough it can lead to psychological problems and sometimes to violent activity. Most mass murderers are such people. To them the rest of the us are nothing but resources to be manipulated.

Some people just cannot get by in life without a Mastermind to make all of their choices for them. Those unable to think for themselves will end up working for those who can.
Or it could simply be that many of us recognize a better return by working together as a community instead of each of us reinventing the wheel when we need it. I understand people who aren't team players have a difficult time with this concept. You are apparently one of them.

Regardless of how much you may believe it, the quarter back isn't the team. Put the quarter back on the field by himself and see how far he moves the ball.
 
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Re: Ending Public Schools

Perhaps we should just make public schools for those who cant afford private schools. It would cut the operating costs down extremely, thus lowering tax's. But then why do so many people who could afford private schools send their children to public schools? Wouldnt that actually be why public schools cost so much?

But seriously public schools are community schools. The schools exist for and because of the local community. Ending public schools would be the government dictating to a local community on what they can do as a community. If the entire community sent their kids to private schools or at least a large portion then the public school in that community would be small or even non existent. In areas that student population falls below a certain limit those schools are closed, that is how it works now.

If you want to make private school the dominant educational system then promote them do not attack public schools. Because if the public moves too private schools then and only then will public schooling end or become less.


But let us look at the economic impact of ending publicly paid schooling. The first thing that would happen is outlying populations would be forced to move into cities since many rural areas have no private schools nor the income to pay for them. There simply are not enough private schools for the entire country how would we make sure that there were enough private schools?

Next how would we make these private schools accountable? Private schools cannot police themselves so are we to retain the board of education?

Personally I do not think that the proponents of killing public schooling have really thought things through. They seem stuck on a fear mongering idea rather then reality.

Have you ever considered why government-run public schools exist in the first place? It's certainly not to "serve the community." And, speaking of fear mongering, your argument rests entirely on the notion that without government to provide, schools open to the public would go away and those in rural areas would be without resources and lacking in the resourcefulness to get the education for their children. It's an unfounded assumption.
 
Re: Ending Public Schools

Society IS investing heavily in educating the populace. The problem is the populace, and not the lack of educational opportunity.


Perhaps it is the one-size-fits-all government brand of education that fails to compel, entice, and interest the students of today.
 
Re: Ending Public Schools

This time let's do something really radical and close down the Education Department, eliminate federal oversight of every facet of local education, and let us get on with making real changes so we can all begin to have our needs met.
I'm sorry you bought into such a poor neighborhood that your schools cannot meet your K-12 needs. My K-12 educational needs are being met - but my neighbors and I take the time to make it work.

Maybe that's the problem, you simply won't take the time to make it work. That's the one thing democracy, even a representative one like ours, demands of it's citizens - participation. If you can't or don't want to participate then you should quit bitching about the way things are or move to a non-democratic country where you really do have masters that answer to no one but themselves.
 
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Re: Ending Public Schools

None the less I would rather the population be educated rather than not. And so do most Americans. Most Americans do not want public schools closed so where does that leave you and your movement?

Do you believe that government-run public education exists because, at one time, there was a lack of educational resources and children weren't learning? If so, can you find the evidence for that belief, because I can find none. Government-run schools exist to homogenize society, to create good government citizens who support government goals, and to provide obedient workers for industry.

It is only an unfounded assertion, then, that "the population" would be less educated. One could just as easily assert that the population would not only be more educated, but many more would be capable of critical thinking and enjoy reading skills that allow them to obtain information from what they read (functional literacy). It seems to me to be rather elitist to suggest that people are too stupid, unwilling, and incapable of obtaining from the market their educational needs without government to do all of that for them.
 
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