Ending Public Schools [W:961]

[longview]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Ummm, where would the $9,000 come from? There is no way to separate the taxing authority from the delivery service. Either way? Public/Private? The money is going to come from you and I and be funneled through the US Government.

From an earlier thread, the $9K was the average per student spending in the US.
Most schools are locally taxed and delivered, some do a state wide, but many are local.
The relationship between the taxing district and the school district gets somewhat incestuous,
in that property appraisals suddenly go up when the school district needs a new school.
I am thinking a voucher system would be local also, there is way too much chance of the Federal
government skimming off funds to do it nationally.
It's bad enough my local School district admin building has a full time executive chef, and that they serve
Kobe Beef and lobster at functions.

 

[Boo Radley]

Re: Ending Public Schools

What? In what way is that even important?

It's important in how you approach the problem of education. If you only look at the service provider, you're missing at least half the equation (K-12 you have to include parents and the community).

Paying for it is a separate issue, but if you don't understand what we're talking about buying, you loose context and start thinking of it as something you can actually buy. Knowledge must be found, gathered, not given.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Ending Public Schools

basically, any voucher system will turn private schools into public schools and we will have the same problems and will have accomplished nothing. back to my cooking example...the problem is not the oven...it's what you put into the oven.

garbage in garbage out

Not at all, since the private schools have a CHOICE as well. They do not, nor will they under a voucher assisted payment system, accept a student that does not meet THEIR standards. The biggest problem in public schools is that teachers must play the role of parents, since they dare not send little Johnny packing like the private schools DO. Just imagine the OUTRAGE when Mr. and Mrs. Jones try to get 7th grade Jimmy into a private school and they are told OK, but only in the 6th grade, since that is what his current education level demands.

This is one of the HUGE advantages that a private institution has, they can and WILL be SELECTIVE. They need not put up with morons that can not (or will not) behave, attend regularly and allow others in their classroom to learn along with them. Far too much time and effort in public education is dedicated to the 2% that insist on acting up and disrupting the CHANCE to educate the majority of the well behaved students.

Private schools will GLADLY refund the tuition and not attempt to play parents for those that will not behave in the classroom. Until the public schools wake up and demand good behavior they will continue to slide further behind, with vouchers they will find they are left with more and more "problem" students, raising the cost of PUBLIC "tuition", thus the value of the voucher. These VERY high paid public teachers will indeed find it HARDER to earn that money and will EVENTUALLY demand real CHOICE in public school student behavior standards.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Re: Ending Public Schools

You act like all education was private until our current system of Fed/state funding came along but that's not true. Public education has been around almost as long as we've been a country and became very common not long after the Civil War ended. I think you'll find your illiteracy numbers were coming down while public school attendance was going up.

Depends on what you call public education and what context you put it in.

If it's autonomous, local only funded, community schools, then yes, that may be a public school.
However, that is not the same as the current monstrosity.
Which is funded and controlled on several different levels, by several different players.

Pretending both types are the same, would be comparing apples and oranges.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Re: Ending Public Schools

basically, any voucher system will turn private schools into public schools and we will have the same problems and will have accomplished nothing. back to my cooking example...the problem is not the oven...it's what you put into the oven.

garbage in garbage out

No the problem is all around, it's the oven, the cooks, the ingredients, the customers, the financing arm, everything.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Not at all, since the private schools have a CHOICE as well. They do not, nor will they under a voucher assisted payment system, accept a student that does not meet THEIR standards. The biggest problem in public schools is that teachers must play the role of parents, since they dare not send little Johnny packing like the private schools DO. Just imagine the OUTRAGE when Mr. and Mrs. Jones try to get 7th grade Jimmy into a private school and they are told OK, but only in the 6th grade, since that is what his current education level demands.

This is one of the HUGE advantages that a private institution has, they can and WILL be SELECTIVE. They need not put up with morons that can not (or will not) behave, attend regularly and allow others in their classroom to learn along with them. Far too much time and effort in public education is dedicated to the 2% that insist on acting up and disrupting the CHANCE to educate the majority of the well behaved students.

Private schools will GLADLY refund the tuition and not attempt to play parents for those that will not behave in the classroom. Until the public schools wake up and demand good behavior they will continue to slide further behind, with vouchers they will find they are left with more and more "problem" students, raising the cost of PUBLIC "tuition", thus the value of the voucher. These VERY high paid public teachers will indeed find it HARDER to earn that money and will EVENTUALLY demand real CHOICE in public school student behavior standards.

so what happens to those students that NO private school wants?

 

[OscarB63]

Re: Ending Public Schools

No the problem is all around, it's the oven, the cooks, the ingredients, the customers, the financing arm, everything.

I should have been more clear. the problem is not necessarily the oven. but too many people in these threads want to blame the schools and ignore the other factors.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Ending Public Schools

I should have been more clear. the problem is not necessarily the oven. but too many people in these threads want to blame the schools and ignore the other factors.

No, too many people want to concentrate efforts on those other factors (in school) and try to compensate for them in moronic ways. School is not about ANYTHING but education, it is not day care, it is not supplimental parenting and it is not a nutrition program, it is still school. Taking on many more missions, without concentrating on the MAIN mission, results in less of the main mission getting accomplished. It is really simple, but has been made into something far too complex to simpy call it public school any more.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Re: Ending Public Schools

I should have been more clear. the problem is not necessarily the oven. but too many people in these threads want to blame the schools and ignore the other factors.

Me wanting to change from public schooling to other, is not necessarily me blaming the school.
Just to be clear.

It's that the incentives and motivations for all parties involve, change based on how education is delivered and funded.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Ending Public Schools

so what happens to those students that NO private school wants?

They either get educated in a public school or in a reform school, the distinction is important yet not being addressed at all. The idea that any and all behavior MUST BE tolerated in a public school is diverting far too much attention AWAY from the mission of educating the majority of well behaved students as best we can.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Me wanting to change from public schooling to other, is not necessarily me blaming the school.
Just to be clear.

It's that the incentives and motivations for all parties involve, change based on how education is delivered and funded.

attendance to school should be merit based. if a kid shows, over a course of time, that he/she is unwilling or unable to apply themselves...stop wasting resources on them and teach them to pick up trash on the side of the road or flip burgers at mickey d's

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Re: Ending Public Schools

attendance to school should be merit based. if a kid shows, over a course of time, that he/she is unwilling or unable to apply themselves...stop wasting resources on them and teach them to pick up trash on the side of the road or flip burgers at mickey d's

I'm on the fence about that, really.

 

[Boo Radley]

Re: Ending Public Schools

No, too many people want to concentrate efforts on those other factors (in school) and try to compensate for them in moronic ways. School is not about ANYTHING but education, it is not day care, it is not supplimental parenting and it is not a nutrition program, it is still school. Taking on many more missions, without concentrating on the MAIN mission, results in less of the main mission getting accomplished. It is really simple, but has been made into something far too complex to simpy call it public school any more.

Maybe, but a hungery student won't learn much. Much of this started because the need was there. So, while I agree with you, the need doesn't go away becasue the school stops providing it.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Ending Public Schools

attendance to school should be merit based. if a kid shows, over a course of time, that he/she is unwilling or unable to apply themselves...stop wasting resources on them and teach them to pick up trash on the side of the road or flip burgers at mickey d's

If students began getting "indoctrinated" of the relevancy of education in their lives in grade school (inner-city schools, I'm talking about, by theway), and then carefully counseled in freshman year about their hopes and dreams...if we showed them a way out of their poverty...kept them safe...gave them an environment that allows them to focus on their own little selves (instead of worrying about their trip to-and-from school and the reality of gangs and bullying), these kids would do just fine.

But we treat them like a dozen eggs. All the same. They aren't. Lenin said, "Give me one generation of youth and I can change the world." Of all the things that Lenin said, that is the one thing I completely believe. But we've lost our way. Kids aren't all the same. We simply must embrace that fact and change.

 

[Misterveritis]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Gina says: You say:You must have gone to a very poor school indeed if to you rich kids = high ability kids. Without equality of opportunity (at minimum) there can be no liberty, as any libertarian who has read up on her/his subject knows.

I do not recall that I said anything of the sort.

I asked why you set the bar so low that no one is to be allowed an education other than that which is provided to the poor and special needs children. Government-run schools do not do that good a job at meeting the educational needs of either group.

Blue, are you a libertarian? I am not.

Children from wealthy families tend to be smarter and more likely to desire to succeed than those from poor families. There are exceptions. I am one. I imagine a wide variety of talent agents looking for top quality from among every part of the civil society. I imagine stipends and scholarships for the ones who are the most deserving based on merit and quality.

Do you see equality of opportunity in auto purchases, in clothing, in housing, in any area? Why do you believe having government-run schools equals equality of opportunity? If you can go into any store and buy anything you can afford why is stat suddenly a bad thing when the purchase is an educational experience?

Or do you, as the Soviet Union's Czars, believe there should be one house available for anyone who is single, another for a couple who is married, yet a third for a family with one child and yet a fourth for a family of four? Do you live this way?

Should we all wear uniforms so we have equality of opportunity in clothing?

 

[Misterveritis]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Because we need them in order to have a successful education.

It is your argument that we must burden everybody so that a few can feel better about themselves at everyone else's expense?

Or is the "we" really a few of you with problems that require a different sort of educational experience?

It is not wasteful or harmful, it is quite the opposite. Without that, you set it up to be purely a system of failure for those youth.

I do not see that your needs, being different from mine, require that I be educated in the same way and in the same place as you. In fact, by allowing businesses to provide educational experiences there is a far greater opportunity for you to get what you need just as I get what I need.

With 504 I was granted simple things like highlighted textbooks, notes from class, extra time on tests, and so on. After we had psychological testing done once more, I was diagnosed with a certain learning disability. We then set up an IEP team to track and design my modified education plan, which met at least once a year. The IEP team helps individually set up goals in the short term and long term, provides additional services that the 504 does not carry, and drafts up a transition to adulthood process that should begin by the time the student reaches the age of 14. This transition to adulthood process attempts to take the bureaucratic process and encourages the student to take more and more control for the advocacy and understanding of their disability, the services they need to receive once they reach adulthood, and helps with pushing the student into the workforce and higher education market. The higher education market is based on the 504 rights (highlighted texts, copy of notes of the lecture, etc), rather than the IDEA rights.

Spend some time with families of those with special needs and ask them how much those laws help. Contact the ARC, DREDEF, contact any number of disability organizations and ask them how specifically 504 and IDEA help.

It seems to me that you are a wonderful market segment that someone will want to serve for profit. There is no need for the very heavy hand of government to prevent me from getting the education I want in order to ensure that you get the education you want. You get to choose for you just as I get to choose for me.

That doesn't work and has not worked in the past.

When and where has it been tried? There is no past to claim it failed in.

Why do you assume that we are reducing anyone's ability to get an education because we are disabled?

Under the methods we use today there are limited dollars to buy educational experiences. When you consume three or four or ten or twenty times the resources as another then everyone is worse off so that you can feel a little bit better about yourself.

Wouldn't it be better to allow everyone to buy the educational experiences they want, in a large, free market environment with competition for your dollars than to have a government take the money, skim their take off the top and then enrich teachers unions with the rest?

Even if you are disabled in some way why does that lead you to prefer the tyranny of a government-run monopoly over the freedom to choose?

 

[Misterveritis]

Re: Ending Public Schools

No offense, but the public doesn't even understand people with disabilities and doesn't care for our rights. They put up a fight when we wanted to have disabled kids in the classroom with their peers, and they put up a fight when disabled children were receiving accommodations, and they put up a fight when the mentally retarded wanted to live in the community and not in mental hospitals.

I am not offended. You have (nearly) always been a reasonable person. Let us continue the discussion.

Why should anyone else care about you and your problems? Everyone has problems. That is one reason why your educational needs are different from mine. Classrooms are one way to deliver educational experiences. But the classroom is not the only way. And if one educational experience is purchased by disabled kids then who cares who else is there? Everyone buys the experience they want.

You are far more likely to get the experiences tailored to meet your needs from someone with a profit motive than someone with a government retirement motive. After all, the one who wants you to spend your money with him is very likely to spend time figuring out how to make his offerings appeal to you based on your needs.

 

[Misterveritis]

Re: Ending Public Schools

I'd say, here in Illinois, at least, the public school system is doing everything possible for those with physical and/or developmental disabilities.

The people who make these decisions are not affected when the community goes broke. It is not their money. And the people who are raped by the taxes do vote with their feet. It is a very bad idea to allow politicians to decide that the citizens will bear any burden so a few people can feel a little bit better about themselves.

 

[Misterveritis]

Re: Ending Public Schools

It is disingenuous to claim everyone has special needs

All of my needs are special. As are your needs to you. There will be someone out there who will gladly provide each of us the best possible fit of their educational product to our special needs. Just as they do in every business area.

when it is understood exactly what kind of kids we are talking about and how specific and special their educational needs are.

Everyone has specific, special needs. Everyone. We are unique. We are complex. We are not the same. You have your needs for education. I have different needs from you. I decide what I need. Those are my special needs. And others will have their special needs. So?

You must not know people or experienced yourself the scarcity of affordable resources for special needs kids.

Forget for a moment how any specific person will pay for the educational experiences they want to purchase. Focus for a moment on the degree of freedom that is possible when I get to choose for me and you get to choose for you. There will always be someone willing to put together programs that are competitive to go after those profit dollars by delighting their customers. If this were to happen I could see me starting up an educational service provider (ESP) business.

There is no dazzling array to meet the needs of these kids and their families.

Tell me where education is designed this way. I have some ideas on how we should educate. It does not necessarily require schools or classrooms, there would be no graduations nor graduation ceremonies. Learning would be largely just in time and fit to your desires and your needs. One would learn all of one's life and be accredited rather than graduating. Accreditations would expire from time to time.[/quote]

Please try to keep this respectful. Deriding special needs children, who are special needs owing to no fault of their own, is despicable.

The problem is entirely on your side. My point is that they are not special. Their educational needs will be as diverse as everyone elses and their needs, just as mine, offer the opportunity for a business to segment the market and meet each of our needs.

It doesn't take billions and the money spent is not to make them, "feel good about themselves". I don't need to say that because the vast majority logically realize that.

Of course it does.

During the 1999-2000 school year, the United States spent $50 billion on special education "support" services and an additional $27.3 billion on regular education for disabled students ($77.3 billion in total).

Special education support costs accounted for 12.4 percent of the $404.4 billion total spending on elementary and secondary education.​

Background & Analysis

Why do I believe society should contribute to the education of a few? Because those children will achieve some level of self-sufficiency, enabling them to contribute to the community and not rely on welfare to live, which is, the last time I checked, a conservative value.

When you say society should pay that is just a gentle way to say that someone else should pay for the things you would like to have.

Are they really achieving "some level of self sufficiency" by spending those billions in the way we are spending those dollars? Or do they largely fall within that half of the population that pays no federal income taxes, and who consume far more than they produce?

That is the obvious and fundamental truth. Special needs children are not a lucrative market.

Every market segment has its profit. What business would give up the opportunity to serve a market $77 billion in size?
Taxpayers are being fleeced a very great amount for a very average result.

It is time to go another way on education. We should eliminate the monopoly government-run schools have on education. We should eliminate the grade levels and move toward a demonstrated-competency model.

 

[Misterveritis]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Of course is does. It's a simple question of revenue. Less dollars, less profit.

I have the sad impression that you do not know what profit is or from whince it comes.

I said, "Why does this matter to you?
Why would you drag down those with ability?
Do you believe educational experiences are equal today?
Do you buy the same clothes from the same stores as the poor? If not, why not? Shouldn't their clothes-buying experiences be equal to yours?"

To which you replied,

This matters to me a citizen of my community. Those who are educated have a greater potential to contribute to it.

We agree, to a point. Those who are educated and have a useful skill that someone is willing to pay for, have the potential to take care of themselves. Not contribute. Not pay back. Not pay forward. Just to pay their own way.

Why do you assume I want to drag anyone down? In any given school, the poor kids have the same educational opportunities, are exposed to the same curriculum, as the wealthy kids those public schools. Privatizing will more than likely effect that as lower income children are funneled into bargain basement schools with a limited curriculum, taught by those who will accept bargain basement salaries.

I see the problem. You believe this is nothing more than changing the name of a building from xx Public School to xx Private school. That is not my intent at all. I would do away with all school monopolies. If some wanted to attend a public school then let the county or city collect that citizen's taxes, skim the government's take off the top, give the money to public sector unions and let that parent's crumb crunchers prepare for a life of working for others.

If someone wanted to attend a private school with buildings and things they could do that as well. But the vast majority of us might receive their educations from Amazon, iTunes, Netflix, even ebay and companies liek this that already provide educational materials for a fee The Great Courses® - Audio & Video Lectures from The World.
Some would pay for one on one instruction or trips abroad. Why should anyone object? Everyone gets what they want and what they are willing to pay for.

 

[Misterveritis]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Things are not education.

They certainly can be.

There is less profit incentive because low income families have less to spend and teaching the special needs children cost more than average.

Maybe you are looking at the wrong end of the problem. There will always be foundations who will help pay for those they choose to help. You are focusing on the anchors who hold everyone else back instead of figuring out how the greatest possible numbers of people can learn the things they want to learn, when they want to learn them.

Johnny's family can only afford to pay $2000 a year on his education. Billy's family can afford $10,000. By the time costs are extracted from those fees, who makes the school/business more money?

I can afford a $50k car. The profit is probably around 8% or so. I bought a Ford for about $15K. The profit, again, is about 8%.
The $50K car costs more to build and it probably costs more to sell them.

I believe that you believe it costs one dollar to educate a child. The wealthy will pay $50 dollars leaving the school with $49 of profit while the poor family can only afford two dollars leaving the school with one dollar of profit. Is that what you think?

I believe we should have big box educational stores (those would be private schools), boutique educational stores, and everything in between.
I may want to buy my hard sciences educational experiences from a boutique store that specializes in selling that experience. I would go to the bargain basement store for my English literature appreciation courses. You might decide that music appreciation is far more important than mathematics and spend most of your educational dollars at a store that specializes in music and art. We each get to choose our courses, where we buy our experiences and how we learn.

 

[Misterveritis]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Education is a service that requires the customer to do most the work. A student, different than a customer, doesn't walk in and buy education. he buys the right to follow a plan, to study and work with feedback from someone who has a plan and knows the subject matter. Too many forget how different this is from other services. In education, you're hiring something more like a coach than a service where the out come is certain for all. Some will do well, some will fail, and some will do average (most).

Yes. You are heading the right direction.

But we can just walk in and buy an educational experience. Who takes better care of their things, the one who has to work to pay for them or the ones who are given everything? As you answer compare a high end neighborhood like the one I live in where everyone earns their way to the government provided housing that is given to the ones who will not work.

When you pay you will buy the things that are important to you. When the subject is important instead of directed by some government bureaucrat somewhere aren't you far more likely to do more?

 

[Boo Radley]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Yes. You are heading the right direction.

But we can just walk in and buy an educational experience. Who takes better care of their things, the one who has to work to pay for them or the ones who are given everything? As you answer compare a high end neighborhood like the one I live in where everyone earns their way to the government provided housing that is given to the ones who will not work.

When you pay you will buy the things that are important to you. When the subject is important instead of directed by some government bureaucrat somewhere aren't you far more likely to do more?

If it were but that simple. Many hard working and decent person is poor. I've lived in projects and known more than a few. So, while there is something to what you suggest, there are also those who need the hand up, to be taught to fish so to speak. Also, until we as a country value education, where learning becomes as feverent as football, we will have trouble matching a lot of other countries. But at the end of the day, to do what you and Guy suggest, we must throw a good number of people away, leave them behind. I prefer to at least try.

 

[Misterveritis]

Re: Ending Public Schools

If it were but that simple. Many hard working and decent person is poor. I've lived in projects and known more than a few. So, while there is something to what you suggest, there are also those who need the hand up, to be taught to fish so to speak. Also, until we as a country value education, where learning becomes as feverent as football, we will have trouble matching a lot of other countries. But at the end of the day, to do what you and Guy suggest, we must throw a good number of people away, leave them behind. I prefer to at least try.

I do not understand why you think anyone is proposing throwing anyone away. I believe it is a straw man argument.

Teaching people to fish is far more likely when a business wants you to buy their product.

Personally I do not care one whit that there are some people who love sports. Some brilliant entrepreneur will build his teaching package around those peoples' love of the game. Imagine teaching statistical analysis...leadership, management, motivational theory, marketing, finance all based on sports.

 

[Boo Radley]

Re: Ending Public Schools

I do not understand why you think anyone is proposing throwing anyone away. I believe it is a straw man argument.

Teaching people to fish is far more likely when a business wants you to buy their product.

Personally I do not care one whit that there are some people who love sports. Some brilliant entrepreneur will build his teaching package around those peoples' love of the game. Imagine teaching statistical analysis...leadership, management, motivational theory, marketing, finance all based on sports.

Why guy, and you support his position as I understand, proposes has consequences. And that would be one of many consequneces.

And no, business also sells snake oil. We've always lived by the moto buyer beware. Business will assure those who spend the most will get the best, on average (though even they can be taken). Those with less, will get cut rate, but much less for their money. We already have predatory institutions in the private sector, who are far worse than any government school. You over idolize the market. Ture, even I like the market for most things, but not knowing that even the market has down sides, and problem areas is to be foolish at a bare minimum.