Ending Public Schools [W:961]

[lizzie]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Yep, kick em all outa skool, Then lockem up when they vandalixe an burlurlis yur naborhood... More correction facilities..that's the solution!

Or maybe form alternative schools for the misfits and trouble-makers, with tougher standards to make up for the lack of parenting and disclipine they have at home.

 

[Cephus]

Re: Ending Public Schools

We have tried compelling it. It obviously doesn't work. You want to be stuck on the idea that "take every kid that comes through the door, the kids with learning disabilities, the kids on drugs, the kids who just don't give a damn, and turn out well-educated young adults". Its unrealistic. It is impossible.

And in trying you are harming those kids who are actually trying.

Barring public assistance to those who do quit or get kicked out, I am all for that.

When have we tried compelling it? Simply picking kids up off the street and forcing them through the door, only to have them run out the rear exit again isn't compulsion, it's a waste of time. Compulsion means you have no choice. It means that for the kids who don't go, their parents start losing benefits. It forces the parents to take action from a very early age to keep them in school and to impress on them the importance of an education. If the kid fails, the parents get punished. Parental involvement in education is a primary factor in educational success. The younger you get them, the earlier you identify the learning disabilities and can deal with them, the less likely you are to have them get on drugs, get in gangs and the line, and when your parents are on your ass constantly from 1st grade to do well in school, the more likely you are to learn good work habits.

It's neither unrealistic nor impossible. The ones that you most need to keep in school are the ones at highest risk for failure.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Re: Ending Public Schools

No, he's not producing anything because he has nothing to produce.



The problem is, you simply cannot get a private solution to work, given the same requirements that we impose on public schools. If public schools could do what private schools do, throw out bad students, expel the disorderly, etc., then public schools would function exactly as well as private schools. They can't. If private schools took over, we'd have to require them to take all comers just like the public schools do. That's not open to negotiation, education is guaranteed in this country.

So Guy would have to explain how he could take every kid that comes through the door, the kids with learning disabilities, the kids on drugs, the kids who just don't give a damn, and turn out well-educated young adults. Unfortunately, he has no solutions, he's just convinced that private enterprise would magically pull a solution out of it's ass.

Your argument might have some merit if the public education system was srvinv those wayward children., but it is not.
The fact is that the mindless bureaucrats have no incentive to help tone worst student, because it is just to hard. But take away the gov ernment monopoly and you are giving private entrepreneurs a profit incentive to educate even the worst students. The profit motive may not be noble but it is effective. Someone will provide a Walmart education for the worst off kids, if peermitted to do so. And just like Wal mart it won't be a fancy status symbol but it will get the job done.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Ending Public Schools

All the best schools are private, no matter what country you're in.

And all the best cars have a price tag at over $50,000.00. So there we have the answer. All cars should have a price tag of at least $50,000.00 and they will automatically be better. :roll:

Now that sort of thinking somehow just does not work does it?

 

[Guy Incognito]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Perhaps your complete and total faith is enough for you. I suspect the rest of America needs just a bit more in the way of evidence.

It's not faith, it is cynical realism. If there is a buck to be made educating low income kids then entrepreneurs will do it, and they will do it better than any disincentivized bureaucracy.

It is because of my unsentimental and realistic view of the world that I have rejected the Polyanna-ish faith you espouse in statism. The free market is the only rational solution. Doctrinaire bureaucrats may never understand that, because it violates a key pillar of you slavish faith in the government.

 

[lizzie]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Your argument might have some merit if the public education system was srvinv those wayward children., but it is not.
The fact is that the mindless bureaucrats have no incentive to help tone worst student, because it is just to hard. But take away the gov ernment monopoly and you are giving private entrepreneurs a profit incentive to educate even the worst students. The profit motive may not be noble but it is effective. Someone will provide a Walmart education for the worst off kids, if peermitted to do so. And just like Wal mart it won't be a fancy status symbol but it will get the job done.

They can't really address these students' problems, because the schools no longer have the authority to do so. School teachers and officials have had their hands tied over the years, to not directly confront problem students, as it's not politically and socially expedient to do so. Corporal punishment has been all but banned, and parents won't correct their childrens behavioral problems, so who will?

 

[Rosie1]

Re: Ending Public Schools

We already have alt schools in our area, public ones, and they've been working pretty well. By the way, the Samoans are much happier being "defensive" playors and staff on our University football teams, and they made pretty good grades to get there.

 

[Cephus]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Your argument might have some merit if the public education system was srvinv those wayward children., but it is not.
The fact is that the mindless bureaucrats have no incentive to help tone worst student, because it is just to hard. But take away the gov ernment monopoly and you are giving private entrepreneurs a profit incentive to educate even the worst students. The profit motive may not be noble but it is effective. Someone will provide a Walmart education for the worst off kids, if peermitted to do so. And just like Wal mart it won't be a fancy status symbol but it will get the job done.

Of course it's not, there are currently no teeth to the educational system. Remember, we all agree that the system needs to be revamped? It's not that administrators and teachers don't want to fix bad students, with the absurd liberalization of America, there simply isn't much they can do. The parents don't care. The kids don't care. The teachers can't touch the kid. If the kid wants to stand on his desk and hurl a string of obscenity at the teacher all day long, there isn't anything that can be done. The same laws that stop the public school teacher from disciplining the kid are going to stop the private school teacher as well.

So where is the solution you seem to think is out there? You don't appear to have any actual ideas.

 

[lizzie]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Of course it's not, there are currently no teeth to the educational system. Remember, we all agree that the system needs to be revamped? It's not that administrators and teachers don't want to fix bad students, with the absurd liberalization of America, there simply isn't much they can do. The parents don't care. The kids don't care. The teachers can't touch the kid. If the kid wants to stand on his desk and hurl a string of obscenity at the teacher all day long, there isn't anything that can be done. The same laws that stop the public school teacher from disciplining the kid are going to stop the private school teacher as well.

So where is the solution you seem to think is out there? You don't appear to have any actual ideas.

As hard as it may be for some people to understand, much less admit to themselves, is that humans aren't typically born with the innate desire to learn, be socially acceptable, or constructive. We may be the highest animals on the predatory scale, but animals we are, and we require loving attention and disclipine in order to learn to be productive members of society at large, and to be personally successful in our lives. One of the hardest, and most important words to learn, is NO. Your parents' job is to teach you how to tell yourself no, and to instill in you some basic social manners in order to make you capable of living alongside others. Without parents to teach you the basics, all the public education in the world will not help your ability to function in a constructive capacity.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Ending Public Schools

What would be wrong with the idea of a voucher system, in which parents were able to choose their child's school with education department funding paying for it? One of the problems is that parents are entirely too passive with the education of their children, and when parents are passive, the child is a victim of whatever poor standards the public schools are offering. Parental involvement is essential for the wellbeing of their child and his education.

The problem I have with a voucher system is that it would bleed money from public schools big-time. As it is, without the voucher system, 39% of the City of Chicago public school teachers (as an example), send their own kids to private schools:

cAs recently as 2004, a Thomas B. Their kids, your kids - Chicago Tribune Institute study found that 39 percent of CPS teachers sent their own kids to private schools.

In the City of Chicago, already - without vouchers - 17% of high school students alone are enrolled in private schools. https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...vwNywy&sig=AHIEtbSGnQisJFMdFI2npoUaoi72cdJb3Q

IMO, a voucher system would be a back-door approach to dismantling our public school system.

Or maybe form alternative schools for the misfits and trouble-makers, with tougher standards to make up for the lack of parenting and disclipine they have at home.

I'd be willing to pay more money to remove these misfits and trouble-makers from our inner-city public schools and send them to boarding schools where they were safe - could have mentors - and give them "one more chance," as it were, to shape up.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Re: Ending Public Schools

And all the best cars have a price tag at over $50,000.00. So there we have the answer. All cars should have a price tag of at least $50,000.00 and they will automatically be better. :roll:

Now that sort of thinking somehow just does not work does it?

That is non sequitur, and demonstrative of your failure to grasp the principles at play. Private education is analogous to a car you pay for on your own, whether it is a luxury or a beater is dependent on your budget and needs. But as long as it gets you from pointa to point b it is a success. In this analogy, government if giving you a car that doesn't run for free, and in the process it is distorting the market so cheap cars aren't even being made, thus limiting the options to 50k cars or free cars that don't work. Naturally the private sector option that provides affordable things that work is superior

 

[Cephus]

Re: Ending Public Schools

As hard as it may be for some people to understand, much less admit to themselves, is that humans aren't typically born with the innate desire to learn, be socially acceptable, or constructive. We may be the highest animals on the predatory scale, but animals we are, and we require loving attention and disclipine in order to learn to be productive members of society at large, and to be personally successful in our lives. One of the hardest, and most important words to learn, is NO. Your parents' job is to teach you how to tell yourself no, and to instill in you some basic social manners in order to make you capable of living alongside others. Without parents to teach you the basics, all the public education in the world will not help your ability to function in a constructive capacity.

Without question, I absolutely agree with you on the importance of parental involvement and influence on a child's behavior from the earliest stages of life. There are a lot of people out there who have no business breeding at all. Unfortunately, we've gotten to a point in this country where people are not responsible for their own actions and don't really care so long as someone sends them a check once a month. It's expected that someone will take care of them so why try to take care of themselves? We really need to get back to enforcing strict responsibility for a generation or two until it becomes second nature for American citizens. It is necessary for a stable society whether liberals like it or not. That means parents take responsibility for breeding in the first place and not bringing a child into the world until they are emotionally, financially and mentally ready for it, then being committed to bringing up the child from birth to 18 as a responsible and functional member of society. That's their job. If they are unable or unwilling to do it, they have no business breeding in the first place.

 

[lizzie]

Re: Ending Public Schools

The problem I have with a voucher system is that it would bleed money from public schools big-time. As it is, without the voucher system, 39% of the City of Chicago public school teachers (as an example), send their own kids to private schools:

.

With more kids going into private schools, the public school system shouldn't need as much money.

I'd be willing to pay more money to remove these misfits and trouble-makers from our inner-city public schools and send them to boarding schools where they were safe - could have mentors - and give them "one more chance," as it were, to shape up.

Unfortunately, and it's tough to say, boarding schools would probably be the best thing that could happen to these kids. Their home and social environment is likely the biggest problem they have.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Re: Ending Public Schools

They can't really address these students' problems, because the schools no longer have the authority to do so. School teachers and officials have had their hands tied over the years, to not directly confront problem students, as it's not politically and socially expedient to do so. Corporal punishment has been all but banned, and parents won't correct their childrens behavioral problems, so who will?

Why would a bureaucrat want to go out of their way to do anything? There is no money in it.

If you want innovative solutions and people who go above and beyond then you need entrepreneurs not bureaucrats.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Of course it's not, there are currently no teeth to the educational system. Remember, we all agree that the system needs to be revamped? It's not that administrators and teachers don't want to fix bad students, with the absurd liberalization of America, there simply isn't much they can do. The parents don't care. The kids don't care. The teachers can't touch the kid. If the kid wants to stand on his desk and hurl a string of obscenity at the teacher all day long, there isn't anything that can be done. The same laws that stop the public school teacher from disciplining the kid are going to stop the private school teacher as well.

So where is the solution you seem to think is out there? You don't appear to have any actual ideas.

Haven't you been paying attention? The solution is to end public education and let the free market take over.

 

[Boo Radley]

Re: Ending Public Schools

With more kids going into private schools, the public school system shouldn't need as much money.



Unfortunately, and it's tough to say, boarding schools would probably be the best thing that could happen to these kids. Their home and social environment is likely the biggest problem they have.

If more kids go to private schools, you merely move the problem from the public to the private. Even in boarding school home problems and attitudes follow. I wish we spent more time trying to solve the problems than we do trying to run away from the problems.

 

[lizzie]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Why would a bureaucrat want to go out of their way to do anything? There is no money in it.

If you want innovative solutions and people who go above and beyond then you need entrepreneurs not bureaucrats.

I agree, but it's not entrepreneurs who are legislating and setting the rules for school officials, which is one of the reasons that private school education is superior, while public schools continue to decline. I am way past the age for having children nowadays, but with the current state of public education, if I were having children now, my children would be privately educated in a religion-based private school, and I am not even a religious person, and in fact dislike organized religion as a rule.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Haven't you been paying attention? The solution is to end public education and let the free market take over.

WTF? Haven't you been paying attention? No one agrees with you. You can say it from now 'til doomsday. Sing the same old song to your heart's content. No one agrees with you. Get it?

 

[lizzie]

Re: Ending Public Schools

If more kids go to private schools, you merely move the problem from the public to the private. Even in boarding school home problems and attitudes follow. I wish we spent more time trying to solve the problems than we do trying to run away from the problems.

That isn't really the case, as private schools are able to use disclipinary measures much more effectively.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Re: Ending Public Schools

I agree, but it's not entrepreneurs who are legislating and setting the rules for school officials, which is one of the reasons that private school education is superior, while public schools continue to decline. I am way past the age for having children nowadays, but with the current state of public education, if I were having children now, my children would be privately educated in a religion-based private school, and I am not even a religious person, and in fact dislike organized religion as a rule.

Well there you go. I see that you are a libertarian. Wouldn't you agree that given a choice between a government mandate and a true free market solution, the market is always preferae?

What I am suggesting here is ending government involvement in education altogether.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Re: Ending Public Schools

WTF? Haven't you been paying attention? No one agrees with you. You can say it from now 'til doomsday. Sing the same old song to your heart's content. No one agrees with you. Get it?

All I hear is no counter argument. You've failed to muster a ration response and been soundly defeated, so you resort to fallacies like appeal to popularity and appeal to ridicule to make the point you have repeatedly failed to make logically. This is, of course, tantamount to you waving the white flag and giving up. I cheerfully accept your tacit admission that you have nothing logically meritorious to say.

 

[lizzie]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Well there you go. I see that you are a libertarian. Wouldn't you agree that given a choice between a government mandate and a true free market solution, the market is always preferae?

What I am suggesting here is ending government involvement in education altogether.

Yes definitely. The sticking point is in transitioning, which I suspect would be next to impossible. If we could take the government funding, then let free market principles dictate the methods and outcomes, that would be a huge improvement, but you and I both know that when government funding pays, government bureaucrats rule.

 

[clownboy]

Re: Ending Public Schools

That isn't really the case, as private schools are able to use disclipinary measures much more effectively.

While I agree (I pay for my grandchildren to go to a private school) with their more effective use of discipline, part of the reason they can do that is that they can be selective in enrollment. They just don't have to have the little monster back next year. Public schools must accept everyone.

 

[Boo Radley]

Re: Ending Public Schools

That isn't really the case, as private schools are able to use disclipinary measures much more effectively.

Not really. All they can do that would matter is remove the student. We could make that change easily enough in public schools if we wanted to. Private schools do next to nothing else different from public schools.

 

[Boo Radley]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Well there you go. I see that you are a libertarian. Wouldn't you agree that given a choice between a government mandate and a true free market solution, the market is always preferae?

What I am suggesting here is ending government involvement in education altogether.

The free market isn't magic. What we've seen in the market at the college level are paper mills, which don't put education or actual learning first. The same will happen in K-12.