Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106:158

[Fledermaus]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

So, is a person that makes money not credible? Is it a scale? Does making more money make you less credible or does the profit add to the credibility?

Should we be praising the views of the homeless because they have no money?

 

[BmanMcfly]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

Yes I said that and then you took it and decided it meant "that making money makes someone less credible? " Thus a strawman was born.

Yes, but you tied CT's being not credible to the profit motive... so, elaborate your position.

Is it that liars (CT's by your definition) make money, or is it that the fact of making money means a person is lying?

 

[Quag]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

Yes, but you tied CT's being not credible to the profit motive... so, elaborate your position.

No, you did that is your strawman.

Is it that liars (CT's by your definition) make money, or is it that the fact of making money means a person is lying?

Think about what I have said, ignore your strawman and maybe you will figure it out.

 

[Oozlefinch]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

Where did the recent incarnation of ebola come out?

You are aware there are multiple strains of Ebola, right? To be specific, there are 5. Ebola Sudan (1976), Ebola Zaire (1976), Ebola Tai Forest (1995), and Ebola Bundibugyo (2008). And that is not counting my favorite strain, the Ebola Reston, discovered in 1990 in Virginia.

Today, what is most commonly dealt with and is called "Ebola" is actually Ebola Zaire.

Of course, you also have the related Marburg filovirus, first discovered in 1967.

The virus have been popping in and out of the jungles for years, maybe even centuries. But until modern times with the rise of population densities and encroachment into the territory of the vector, it was never noticed before.

Where are there bio-weapons labs in Africa?

Oh, there probably are some. But they are run by local and state sponsored groups, and playing with things like anthrax, cholera, plague, and the usual bioweapons. Not even the leading Nobel Prize Winners are anywhere near the sophistication to create entirely new families of virus.

I wasn't saying that this is a bio weapon either way... Though it might be, there have been discussions on making ebola a weapon for some 30 years, and I can't really talk about what has been accomplished in those labs. The idea that virus like these are created in labs is a fantasy.

the logic does not follow... Let's say it was real (Bermuda triangle), the books would still be written, the money would still be made. But you would discredit the, on the basis of making money?

No, money has nothing to do with it, are you being purposefully obtuse?

The people who write the books generally do not create the fear, but they do profit off of it. Like the people who bought up all the surgical masks a few years ago and sold them on street corners when H1N1 was the "fear of the day". Or the people today selling "Ebola Salt".

I am not saying that the hucksters created the problem, that is your logical failure. Take my example of the Bermuda Triangle. It is not a fail because people make money off of it, it is a fail because it does not exist, it is a fantasy like the Tooth Fairy, and people are making money off of the FUD associated with it.

And nobody takes that FUD seriously, other then the inbreeds, mentally dysfunctional, and those with no cognitive reasoning skills. And that is the target groups of those who sell such things, be it Ebola Salt, or some new "Mystery Thing" on the planet. In short, stop confusing Cause and Effect.

 

[zyzygy]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

Perhaps there is another reason why the U.S. government would patent a viral strain other than to weaponize it.

Maybe patenting is the best standard-defining classification available, to insure scientists have the right givens before they set out to find a cure.

One really doesn't need to patent something to secretly weaponize it.

Regardless, I find this very forum, "Conspiracy Theories", to be somewhat disturbing in and of itself.

Anything placed here .. or moved here .. is labeled suspect from the onset, and thus it attracts an attitude of derision, not on its own merit, but because if the issue is seen as favoring one political wing, then the very nature of the forum itself thus gives permission to the other political wing to deride it.

This renders the forum fairly useless as a place to conduct an intelligent discussion.

It is difficult to conduct an intelligent conversation with people who believe that everything that happens is the result of an evil government conspiracy.

 

[Oozlefinch]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

Perhaps there is another reason why the U.S. government would patent a viral strain other than to weaponize it.

This was actually common practice at the time.

The CDC (a government body) spent a lot of money researching Ebola (in this case Ebola Bundibugyo), and wanted to be able to make the research money back in the event somebody else was able to use the genome to create a vaccine. Nothing nefarious in this at all, millions of dollars were spent in this research project, and the government deserves to be compensated for that if somebody else uses the research to create something with marketable potential.

Imagine the screams if say Bayer or Pfizer or somebody else used this genome to create a vaccine, then made billions off of the sale without giving anything back to the US Government for the data they used.

Of course, this is all moot anyways. In the early days of Genome patents, thousands of them were awarded in the US. From that of Human Genome and Cancer Genes to Neanderthal Genome and stem cells. Then in June 2013 the US Supreme Court pretty much threw all of these out the window, stating that a naturally occurring genome can not be patented. All such patents have been vacated.

 

[BmanMcfly]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

No, you did that is your strawman.


Think about what I have said, ignore your strawman and maybe you will figure it out.

Ok, since you are desperate to not follow logically, I'll just say it...

Your premise is false because if you were to look at the people profiting by talking about conspiracy theories (which is virtually nobody and the sums of cash is much less than is alluded to by the charge), versus the money gained through the perpetration of "conspiracy theories" (and I mean specifically the ones that get proven as fact, which is the majority of conspiracy theories that are not leprechaun big footed aliens).

So, if you actually asked "who benefits" and apply that process through, instead of just stopping at something you can throw some debunker stamp on... Then you wouldn't just dismiss SOME (at your apparent discretion) for simply the merits of making money.

Whether it's selling books, giving speeches, or whatever, the money is an irrelevant factor in sifting through the honest and the liars.

Remember, there was no other form of discrediting the topic beyond that there was an income of money. So, if you intended something different, then clarify, but this is not a strawman, it's the logical outcome of your argument as it was stated (which might be different from what was intended).

 

[Fledermaus]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

Ok, since you are desperate to not follow logically, I'll just say it...

Your premise is false because if you were to look at the people profiting by talking about conspiracy theories (which is virtually nobody and the sums of cash is much less than is alluded to by the charge), versus the money gained through the perpetration of "conspiracy theories" (and I mean specifically the ones that get proven as fact, which is the majority of conspiracy theories that are not leprechaun big footed aliens).

So, if you actually asked "who benefits" and apply that process through, instead of just stopping at something you can throw some debunker stamp on... Then you wouldn't just dismiss SOME (at your apparent discretion) for simply the merits of making money.

Whether it's selling books, giving speeches, or whatever, the money is an irrelevant factor in sifting through the honest and the liars.

Remember, there was no other form of discrediting the topic beyond that there was an income of money. So, if you intended something different, then clarify, but this is not a strawman, it's the logical outcome of your argument as it was stated (which might be different from what was intended).

Spin, Spin, Spin....

And a dose of STRAWMAN.

 

[BmanMcfly]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

You are aware there are multiple strains of Ebola, right? To be specific, there are 5. Ebola Sudan (1976), Ebola Zaire (1976), Ebola Tai Forest (1995), and Ebola Bundibugyo (2008). And that is not counting my favorite strain, the Ebola Reston, discovered in 1990 in Virginia.

Today, what is most commonly dealt with and is called "Ebola" is actually Ebola Zaire.

Of course, you also have the related Marburg filovirus, first discovered in 1967.

The virus have been popping in and out of the jungles for years, maybe even centuries. But until modern times with the rise of population densities and encroachment into the territory of the vector, it was never noticed before.



Oh, there probably are some. But they are run by local and state sponsored groups, and playing with things like anthrax, cholera, plague, and the usual bioweapons. Not even the leading Nobel Prize Winners are anywhere near the sophistication to create entirely new families of virus.

I wasn't saying that this is a bio weapon either way... Though it might be, there have been discussions on making ebola a weapon for some 30 years, and I can't really talk about what has been accomplished in those labs. The idea that virus like these are created in labs is a fantasy.

Yes, this is true... Mostly at least...

They are not "creating new viruses", rather they are bioengineering existing viruses, combining viruses, and studying the results.

There are these facilities in each of the countries that were first hit by this new outbreak. Which is relevant for means and opportunity, nothing for motive. They were placed in Africa so that the government would not intervene.

I'll come back with sources on this, just have enough time to write out the post, will source this afternoon.

No, money has nothing to do with it, are you being purposefully obtuse?

The people who write the books generally do not create the fear, but they do profit off of it. Like the people who bought up all the surgical masks a few years ago and sold them on street corners when H1N1 was the "fear of the day". Or the people today selling "Ebola Salt".

I am not saying that the hucksters created the problem, that is your logical failure. Take my example of the Bermuda Triangle. It is not a fail because people make money off of it, it is a fail because it does not exist, it is a fantasy like the Tooth Fairy, and people are making money off of the FUD associated with it.

And nobody takes that FUD seriously, other then the inbreeds, mentally dysfunctional, and those with no cognitive reasoning skills. And that is the target groups of those who sell such things, be it Ebola Salt, or some new "Mystery Thing" on the planet. In short, stop confusing Cause and Effect.

that was the point, the money has nothing to do with it, so the premise of the point I first quoted was false to start.

I had hoped that by forcing him to see the logical failure at play that the correction would be forthcoming. Seems I was wrong.

 

[Quag]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

Ok, since you are desperate to not follow logically, I'll just say it...

Your premise is false because if you were to look at the people profiting by talking about conspiracy theories (which is virtually nobody and the sums of cash is much less than is alluded to by the charge), versus the money gained through the perpetration of "conspiracy theories" (and I mean specifically the ones that get proven as fact, which is the majority of conspiracy theories that are not leprechaun big footed aliens).

So, if you actually asked "who benefits" and apply that process through, instead of just stopping at something you can throw some debunker stamp on... Then you wouldn't just dismiss SOME (at your apparent discretion) for simply the merits of making money.

Whether it's selling books, giving speeches, or whatever, the money is an irrelevant factor in sifting through the honest and the liars.

Remember, there was no other form of discrediting the topic beyond that there was an income of money. So, if you intended something different, then clarify, but this is not a strawman, it's the logical outcome of your argument as it was stated (which might be different from what was intended).

You continue to argue the strawman and accuse me of not following something logically?

 

[Fledermaus]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

You continue to argue the strawman and accuse me of not following something logically?

That is the modus operandi for BmanMcFly.

He has done it often and blatantly.

 

[Oozlefinch]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

Yes, this is true... Mostly at least...

They are not "creating new viruses", rather they are bioengineering existing viruses, combining viruses, and studying the results.

There are these facilities in each of the countries that were first hit by this new outbreak. Which is relevant for means and opportunity, nothing for motive. They were placed in Africa so that the government would not intervene.

And Ebola Reston?

If you know all of this, then surely you know where Ebola Reston was discovered, right? You are aware are you not that it was not even discovered in Africa at all, are you not?

Which shows how little you know of what you are talking about. You are simply making stuff up, without having done any research, no study, no information but from your imagination.

And FYI, I have been studying Ebola for around 20 years now. I have read many books on the subject, one of the most interesting ones from Doctor William Close, who was directly involved in the first outbreak in Zaire in 1976. He lived in Zaire for over 16 years, running medical clinics in rural areas as well as being personal physician to President Seko and Surgeon General of the Zaire Army.

Had you even heard of Ebola prior to 3 or 4 years ago?

 

[BmanMcfly]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

You continue to argue the strawman and accuse me of not following something logically?

It's only a strawman because either
A) you were not clear on your point, or
B) you did not think through the implications of your stated point.

Or in other words, either you did not say what you meant to say, or the logical error I pointed out is accurately describing your position.

 

[Fledermaus]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

It's only a strawman because either
A) you were not clear on your point, or
B) you did not think through the implications of your stated point.

Or in other words, either you did not say what you meant to say, or the logical error I pointed out is accurately describing your position.

It is YOUR Strawman.

OWN IT.

 

[Fledermaus]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

BTW - BmanMcFly....

Why have you run from the 9/11 threads?

 

[Oozlefinch]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

BTW - BmanMcFly....

Why have you run from the 9/11 threads?

Hell, I am still waiting to hear his take on Ebola Reston. Named after where it was first discovered, Reston, Virginia.

 

[Fledermaus]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

Hell, I am still waiting to hear his take on Ebola Reston. Named after where it was first discovered, Reston, Virginia.

And I wonder
I wa-wa-wa-wa-wonder
Why
Ah-why-why-why-why-why she ran away

 

[Quag]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

It's only a strawman because either
A) you were not clear on your point, or
B) you did not think through the implications of your stated point.

Or in other words, either you did not say what you meant to say, or the logical error I pointed out is accurately describing your position.

No it is a strawman because instead of reading what I said you imagined up an argument that was not made by me then started to argue against it.
The logical error is yours, ascribing an argument to me that I did not make.

 

[BmanMcfly]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

Hell, I am still waiting to hear his take on Ebola Reston. Named after where it was first discovered, Reston, Virginia.

http://vimeo.com/m/6484188

The video in the link, from 2:30-3:15 goes over the types of viruses that were engineered and for what purpose they were created/ engineered.


Where it was imported to...

Now, I could not find the other documentary, and it may have been relating to the Reston strain, I forget that part... but they were testing the monkeys who had it, then it started to spread through the facility even infecting monkeys in different parts of the facility where the infected monkeys had no contact. "The virus seemed to be moving through the ventilation system." Then they killed all the monkeys to end the outbreak.

The main point is, if ebola WAS genetically engineered as a weapon, whatever you know about the virus already may not still be relevant.

 

[BmanMcfly]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

No it is a strawman because instead of reading what I said you imagined up an argument that was not made by me then started to argue against it.
The logical error is yours, ascribing an argument to me that I did not make.

The fact that you won't clarify your point, to show what you intended rather than what you said, more or less proves that I was right.

 

[Fledermaus]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

The fact that you won't clarify your point, to show what you intended rather than what you said, more or less proves that I was right.

TRANSLATION: Doing the Bman-Shuffle.... Create a blatant Strawman then deny doing it while repeatedly flogging said Strawman.

 

[Fledermaus]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

Confronting Doctor Death on Vimeo

The video in the link, from 2:30-3:15 goes over the types of viruses that were engineered and for what purpose they were created/ engineered.


Where it was imported to...

Now, I could not find the other documentary, and it may have been relating to the Reston strain, I forget that part... but they were testing the monkeys who had it, then it started to spread through the facility even infecting monkeys in different parts of the facility where the infected monkeys had no contact. "The virus seemed to be moving through the ventilation system." Then they killed all the monkeys to end the outbreak.

The main point is, if ebola WAS genetically engineered as a weapon, whatever you know about the virus already may not still be relevant.

Whole lotta IF there

 

[Quag]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

The fact that you won't clarify your point, to show what you intended rather than what you said, more or less proves that I was right.

My point was exactly what I said. It wasn't the strawman you are so desperately trying to argue against.

 

[Oozlefinch]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

Now, I could not find the other documentary, and it may have been relating to the Reston strain, I forget that part... but they were testing the monkeys who had it, then it started to spread through the facility even infecting monkeys in different parts of the facility where the infected monkeys had no contact. "The virus seemed to be moving through the ventilation system." Then they killed all the monkeys to end the outbreak.

The main point is, if ebola WAS genetically engineered as a weapon, whatever you know about the virus already may not still be relevant.

In other words, you refuse to do any kind of real research, you simply gravitate to the crackpots and nutjobs and drink whatever koolaid they dish out.

You have no idea what you are saying, simply taking multiple things out of contact.

But how do you respond to the fact that this Ebola outbreak (and every Ebola Reston outbreak since) had nothing to do with Africa? That is your story, that this was a virus created in the United States, and the biolab in Virginia released it by accident?

 

[Oozlefinch]

re: Ebola and hiv (aids) are man made viruses bioengineered in american laborat[W:106]

Whole lotta IF there

Whole lotta Insane Fantasy there.