Don Lemon from CNN gives advice to youths in the black community

[FederalRepublic]

I'm using the dictionary definition of the word. If you are using any other definition, then you are defining it inaccurately.

You're using a dictionary definition, which I posted. I'm using a dictionary definition, which I posted. The problem is that you are applying your definition in an application where it doesn't fit. We're talking generally about the disproportionate number of black people that are involved in crimes, and why people who look, speak and act a certain way have a prejudice against them. We both agree that everyone has prejudices and that there are reasons why they have those prejudices. You're trying to say that people have prejudices for no reason (in other words irrational), and at the same time trying to get me to understand the reason a black person might have a certain prejudice. Why you think I don't get that is a mystery to me, but you can't have it both ways. For reference, the dictionary definition of prejudice, note the two bolded definitions: [h=2]prej·u·dice[/h] /ˈprɛdʒədɪs/ Show Spelled [prej-uh-dis] Show IPA noun, verb, prej·u·diced, prej·u·dic·ing. noun 1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.
3. unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.
4. such attitudes considered collectively: The war against prejudice is never-ending.
5. damage or injury; detriment: a law that operated to the prejudice of the majority.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

You're using a dictionary definition, which I posted. I'm using a dictionary definition, which I posted. The problem is that you are applying your definition in an application where it doesn't fit. We're talking generally about the disproportionate number of black people that are involved in crimes, and why people who look, speak and act a certain way have a prejudice against them. We both agree that everyone has prejudices and that there are reasons why they have those prejudices. You're trying to say that people have prejudices for no reason (in other words irrational), and at the same time trying to get me to understand the reason a black person might have a certain prejudice. Why you think I don't get that is a mystery to me, but you can't have it both ways. For reference, the dictionary definition of prejudice, note the two bolded definitions: [h=2]prej·u·dice[/h] /ˈprɛdʒədɪs/ Show Spelled [prej-uh-dis] Show IPA noun, verb, prej·u·diced, prej·u·dic·ing. noun 1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.
3. unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.
4. such attitudes considered collectively: The war against prejudice is never-ending.
5. damage or injury; detriment: a law that operated to the prejudice of the majority.

1. Both of the definitions you highlighted mean the same thing. We are using the same definition and according to that definition, prejudice is still irrational.

2. Again, the origins of prejudice don't make it less irrational. If people's prejudices come from statistics they read about black people, their prejudices are still irrational. Even further, the prejudiced people - not the targets of prejudice - are still responsible for their prejudices no matter how many of the targets commit crime.

3. No, I am not trying to say that people necessarily have prejudices for no reason insofar as "reason" means "cause." Everything is caused by something. I'm saying that the causes or origins or reasons for prejudice don't stop prejudice from being irrational.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Are you familiar with the word "avoid"?

Can you show me where I said that it's ok to hate someone just because they don't look like you? Do you disagree that the only way to change that person's prejudices is to be something other than what they believe you to be?

 

[FederalRepublic]

Not honest

Or funny

To you.

 

[sangha]

Can you show me where I said that it's ok to hate someone just because they don't look like you? Do you disagree that the only way to change that person's prejudices is to be something other than what they believe you to be?

I see you still won't address the point which was

Just as weak as your efforts to avoid acknowledging that the bigots are responsible for their own prejudices.

And I see you continue to avoid acknowledging that bigots are responsible for their own prejudices.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Not honestly

While giving a moment of attention, you have continued to argue that only the individual is responsible for the discrimination they encounter.

That's not exactly what we're talking about, is it? Nor have I argued that you are the only one responsible for the discrimination you encounter. In some cases, you are. Others, not so much. I've been discriminated against in my job because of my age. I could have reinforced their prejudice by acting like a kid, and probably gotten fired. That would've been my fault...

 

[FederalRepublic]

Case in point

You are back to avoiding institutional and systemic issues and arguing that only individuals count

What are the institutional and systemic issues? What can we do about them other than going after the individuals who are in charge of the system. What's your proposal?

 

[sangha]

What are the institutional and systemic issues? What can we do about them other than going after the individuals who are in charge of the system. What's your proposal?

I have already mentioned a few of those issues and you agreed that they exist. pretending that you now don't know of any is not going to work.

 

[FederalRepublic]

I know that's not true?

You must be getting really desperate if you have to resort to telling me what I really think when you have no basis for saying so.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you're not being honest if you tell me you would hire a prospective employee if you thought they were going to steal your car (for whatever reason). If you really would hire that person, I don't have any reason to discuss irrational behavior with you.

 

[sangha]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you're not being honest if you tell me you would hire a prospective employee if you thought they were going to steal your car (for whatever reason). If you really would hire that person, I don't have any reason to discuss irrational behavior with you.

Why would I think a job applicant was going to steal my car?

Your belief that such a worry would enter an interviewers mind is bizarre

 

[FederalRepublic]

He didn't "call his girlfriend". He'd been on the phone with a friend who happened to be female for perhaps 30 minutes before he noticed he was being followed. At least get your facts right.

Fair point. I was mistaken. He talked to his friend who was a girl for 18 minutes and the call got disconnected shortly after Zimmerman called the police. She called him back about the time Zimmerman lost sight of him. So I stand corrected. He didn't actually call anyone. He took a call from his friend who was a girl and then he doubled back on Zimmerman.

Looks like neither of us had our facts right.

 

[FederalRepublic]

1. Both of the definitions you highlighted mean the same thing. We are using the same definition and according to that definition, prejudice is still irrational.

2. Again, the origins of prejudice don't make it less irrational. If people's prejudices come from statistics they read about black people, their prejudices are still irrational. Even further, the prejudiced people - not the targets of prejudice - are still responsible for their prejudices no matter how many of the targets commit crime.

3. No, I am not trying to say that people necessarily have prejudices for no reason insofar as "reason" means "cause." Everything is caused by something. I'm saying that the causes or origins or reasons for prejudice don't stop prejudice from being irrational.

What does the term "irrational" mean? If your view of a situation is based on your personal experiences and things you learned from other people, then you have a logical basis for your view. The fact that you may be ignorant does not mean you are irrational. People use incorrect logic frequently (Some more than others, and I'm certain you wouldn't argue with that...), but even the term logic means different things to different people. If I take your view of the word prejudice and apply it to black people in the ghetto who persist in a desperate situation, I could look at them with no compassion at all because their view that they aren't capable of getting out of their situation isn't objectively rational. That's ridiculous. Should we continue to lie to them and tell them that they don't hold the primary responsibility for their station in life AND that they aren't CAPABLE of changing it on their own?

 

[sangha]

What does the term "irrational" mean? If your view of a situation is based on your personal experiences and things you learned from other people, then you have a logical basis for your view. The fact that you may be ignorant does not mean you are irrational. People use incorrect logic frequently (Some more than others, and I'm certain you wouldn't argue with that...), but even the term logic means different things to different people. If I take your view of the word prejudice and apply it to black people in the ghetto who persist in a desperate situation, I could look at them with no compassion at all because their view that they aren't capable of getting out of their situation isn't objectively rational. That's ridiculous. Should we continue to lie to them and tell them that they don't hold the primary responsibility for their station in life AND that they aren't CAPABLE of changing it on their own?

It is irrational to use the behavior of people who belong to the same racial or ethnic group as a job applicant to determine the qualifications of someone who is applying for a job.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Why would I think a job applicant was going to steal my car?

Your belief that such a worry would enter an interviewers mind is bizarre

Your seeming inability or unwillingness to look at a person and make a judgement on their character by the way they carry themselves and interact with you is bizarre. Why would you bother even doing an interview? You'd just hire the first application on your desk and see how it goes.

 

[sangha]

Your seeming inability or unwillingness to look at a person and make a judgement on their character by the way they carry themselves and interact with you is bizarre. Why would you bother even doing an interview? You'd just hire the first application on your desk and see how it goes.

We were discussing people who were applying for a job. I still have no idea what car jacking has to do with that

 

[FederalRepublic]

I have already mentioned a few of those issues and you agreed that they exist. pretending that you now don't know of any is not going to work.

Yeah, unequal treatment under the law. I get it. I proposed a solution for that, which you disagreed with but didn't have anything else to add. I'm not sitting here simply bitching about the fact that black people commit almost 50% of the murders and also make up 50% of the murder victims in the country despite being 13.6% of the population. That is a systemic problem and the root of it is in the culture, which Don Lemon was attempting to address honestly...

 

[FederalRepublic]

It is irrational to use the behavior of people who belong to the same racial or ethnic group as a job applicant to determine the qualifications of someone who is applying for a job.

Yes, but it's not irrational to use the behavior of the person who is applying for a job to determine his qualifications. Dressing yourself as if you don't care what others think of you is a behavior. Getting a tattoo on your face is a behavior. Slouching in your chair is a behavior. Smiling, or not, is a behavior. Letting your ass hang out the top of your pants, also a behavior.

 

[sangha]

Yeah, unequal treatment under the law. I get it. I proposed a solution for that, which you disagreed with but didn't have anything else to add. I'm not sitting here simply bitching about the fact that black people commit almost 50% of the murders and also make up 50% of the murder victims in the country despite being 13.6% of the population. That is a systemic problem and the root of it is in the culture, which Don Lemon was attempting to address honestly...

And there you go again!

Giving lip service to the systemic and institutional forms of racism, and then turning around and saying that it has no effect.

 

[FederalRepublic]

We were discussing people who were applying for a job. I still have no idea what car jacking has to do with that

We're discussing observing people and making judgements about them based on your observations. You can never be 100% certain that someone will not stab you in the back. Does that mean you never trust anyone? Or do you simply trust everyone? Or are you like everyone else in the world and make judgement calls?

 

[sangha]

We're discussing observing people and making judgements about them based on your observations. You can never be 100% certain that someone will not stab you in the back. Does that mean you never trust anyone? Or do you simply trust everyone? Or are you like everyone else in the world and make judgement calls?

There is a difference between observing an individual and making judgments about the individual on the basis of those observations, and observing groups of people and making judgments about other (unobserved) individuals on the basis of the behavior of (observed) individuals who belong to the same racial or ethnic group.

And to be more specific, we were talking about job interviews

 

[FederalRepublic]

And there you go again!

Giving lip service to the systemic and institutional forms of racism, and then turning around and saying that it has no effect.

I didn't say it has no effect. In fact, I despise crooked judges, prosecutors and politicians. I hate racial preferences. I'm saying it's not the root of the problem in the black community.

 

[sangha]

I didn't say it has no effect. In fact, I despise crooked judges, prosecutors and politicians. I hate racial preferences. I'm saying it's not the root of the problem in the black community.

Yeah, I hear you saying that, but I'm sure it wont be long before you go back to arguing that the only solution is for black people to change their behavior.

 

[FederalRepublic]

There is a difference between observing an individual and making judgments about the individual on the basis of those observations, and observing groups of people and making judgments about other (unobserved) individuals on the basis of the behavior of (observed) individuals who belong to the same racial or ethnic group.

And to be more specific, we were talking about job interviews

Yes, and in a job interview, you are more critical than you otherwise would be. Since you can't possibly observe 100% of someone's behavior, you put people into groups and make decisions based on your prejudices. It's unfortunate that race is a factor that causes some people to think "criminal" when they are deciding someone's character, but there is a rational reason why it's a factor. If that's the only factor for you, then you're a bigot and you should be ashamed of yourself. If it's a factor, well then you're just a normal person. People have the same prejudices against white people who live in a trailer park. That doesn't mean they hate white people, or even that they hate poor people.

Chris Rock - Black People VS. Niggaz (Bring the Pain 1996) - YouTube

 

[FederalRepublic]

Yeah, I hear you saying that, but I'm sure it wont be long before you go back to arguing that the only solution is for black people to change their behavior.

Different solution for a different problem. And thank you for profiling me.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

What does the term "irrational" mean?

It means "without the faculty of reason or sound judgment."

If your view of a situation is based on your personal experiences and things you learned from other people, then you have a logical basis for your view.

No, you have an empirical basis for your view. Whether your view is logical depends on how you apply your experience to a situation. If you give your experience more authority than it has, then your view is irrational. For example, if a black man robs you and you then view every black man as a robber, then your view is irrational because you are giving your experience being robbed more authority than it has. Indeed, that would be a logical fallacy - hasty generalization.

The fact that you may be ignorant does not mean you are irrational. People use incorrect logic frequently (Some more than others, and I'm certain you wouldn't argue with that...), but even the term logic means different things to different people.

When people disagree on the definition of the term "logic", then they can consult a dictionary.

If I take your view of the word prejudice and apply it to black people in the ghetto who persist in a desperate situation, I could look at them with no compassion at all because their view that they aren't capable of getting out of their situation isn't objectively rational. That's ridiculous. Should we continue to lie to them and tell them that they don't hold the primary responsibility for their station in life AND that they aren't CAPABLE of changing it on their own?

You're on another tangent.