Does torture work?

[Navy Pride]

Re: Doest torture work?

So What is your point? You seem full of crap since it isn't you or your family who are the victim of a terrorist. If someone had murdered the person you most loved and had the remainder of the persons you love in a cave you would use whatever action you thought would save those you loved and thought still to be alive.

It is UNLAWFUL to fight in a war without a uniform or insigina! Torture is illegal... the question for you and your concerns for the opinion of the billions of people around the world is would you let those you beleive still to be alive die for the rule of law and billions of people in the worlds opinion?

We, the US have not signed a GC treaty that protects terrorist or any party that fights out of uniform. You are a liar if you say you would respect the concerns of others for the fate of those you love. You don't love America if you prevent the government from providing the LOVE for innocent Americans when dealing with UNLAWFUL combatants.

Terrorists are the scum of the earth, they kill innocent women and children.......They represent no country........They have not signed the GC......They are not entitled to its protection.........

 

[Caine]

Re: Doest torture work?

Terrorists are the scum of the earth, they kill innocent women and children.......They represent no country........They have not signed the GC......They are not entitled to its protection.........

But this thread is not about GC protection.

And, I hope you are happy knowing we are no better than the Nazi Germans or the Imperialistic Japaneese during WWII.

Uniform or not... Torture is Torture.... to them, torturing Americans meant saving Japaneese lives.

To the Vietcong, Torturing Americans meant saving North Vietnameese Lives.

So the argument, ITS SAVING AMERICAN LIVES, is not acceptable, in my opinion.

 

[Topsez]

Re: Doest torture work?

Your a freak.

The insignia and uniform point is MOOT. It means NOTHING to me. And since this thread is not talking about the geneva conventions, as the creator of the thread already gave me hell for not going by his simple request.

As for your other comments.
You are assuming that torture produces results 100% of the time, which it does not.

Would you like to be tortured for intelligence information because you were caught selling fuel on the side of the road in order to support your family?

To you no action above name rank and serial number should be required of a terrorist or a person selling gas to a terrorist along side the road. To that I say you are a freak and have no idea of right and wrong.

I already said America doesn't use torture in dealing with captives... You cannot prove that America uses torture... and, America will have a new legal method in dealing with terrorist unless the Liberal Dems block the legislation against the will of the American people who overwhelmingly desire to stay alive over the discomfort of a terrorist.

I was an MP in the 82nd Airbone Div. and in apprehensions of people who couldn't distinguish right and wrong usually went like this... Subject was advised he was under apprehension for (whatever charge), subject resisted apprehension and necessary force was applied. Subject was then transported to Womack Army Hospital where he was treated for injuries associated with the necessary force applied in the apprehension... I would have loved to meet you in a bar fight back then.

 

[Caine]

Re: Doest torture work?

To you no action above name rank and serial number should be required of a terrorist or a person selling gas to a terrorist along side the road. To that I say you are a freak and have no idea of right and wrong.

Where did I say the person was selling gas to a terrorist? I didn't, because they weren't they were selling gas to other motorists, hell they tried to sell gas to US (US troops). Anyways, you don't know much about what you are talking about do you?

I already said America doesn't use torture in dealing with captives... You cannot prove that America uses torture... and, America will have a new legal method in dealing with terrorist unless the Liberal Dems block the legislation against the will of the American people who overwhelmingly desire to stay alive over the discomfort of a terrorist.

You want to think otherwise. I know the truth. And I don't care what is a "legal" method and how they try to "re-define" torture. Torture is torture. Period.

I was an MP in the 82nd Airbone Div. and in apprehensions of people who couldn't distinguish right and wrong usually went like this... Subject was advised he was under apprehension for (whatever charge), subject resisted apprehension and necessary force was applied. Subject was then transported to Womack Army Hospital where he was treated for injuries associated with the necessary force applied in the apprehension... I would have loved to meet you in a bar fight back then.

And as a REAL Police Officer, and not a police wanna be, I don't appretiate the unethical wanna be behavior you described above.

Ahem... all of our officers are equipped with batons, pepper spray, .40 handguns, and my personal favorite, the taser. I would LOVE to meet you in a barfight today :2razz:

 

[nogoodname]

Re: Doest torture work?

Terrorists are the scum of the earth, they kill innocent women and children.......They represent no country........They have not signed the GC......They are not entitled to its protection.........

would u be willing to be tortured if it captured one terrorist and he was telling the truth?

 

[Morrow]

Re: Doest torture work?

There really isn’t a debate on this topic. It has been demonstrated, and accepted, repeatedly that torture, coercion by physical pain, does not work. You will not get reliable information form a torture victim. Rumsfeld has said that repeatedly.

 

[Topsez]

Re: Doest torture work?

Where did I say the person was selling gas to a terrorist? I didn't, because they weren't they were selling gas to other motorists, hell they tried to sell gas to US (US troops). Anyways, you don't know much about what you are talking about do you?

You want to think otherwise. I know the truth. And I don't care what is a "legal" method and how they try to "re-define" torture. Torture is torture. Period.




And as a REAL Police Officer, and not a police wanna be, I don't appretiate the unethical wanna be behavior you described above.

Ahem... all of our officers are equipped with batons, pepper spray, .40 handguns, and my personal favorite, the taser. I would LOVE to meet you in a barfight today :2razz:

Well, I don't know how a real police officer deals with pukes but this guy who gave the wrong guy the benifit of a doubt lost his upper front teeth in a bar fight at age 19... Right is cooperation 100% wrong is resist apprehension and see how hard it is to do "everything" with one arm in a cast.

I worked with a real policeman in Fayetteville NC in the 70's in a bar strip known as combat alley outside of Ft. Bragg and a half Lumbee River Indian cut his back from arm pit to arm pit and I used necessary force to cause him to experience discomfort for about eight weeks and learn to mastrabate with his other hand. The real police put him in handcuffs, took him to the station and then in an elevator at the police station and filled the elevator with pepper spray and the guy on the second floor did the same sending him back down to the first floor until they got tired of that... then after booking the real police took him to the hospital to have his broken arm set.

 

[teacher]

Re: Doest torture work?

Search "rendition" as keyword and "teacher" as user name. I said well over a year ago we don't torture people, we render them.

You people are like a year behind me.

Get 'em Topsez.

Does torture work? Ask KSM.

 

[teacher]

Re: Doest torture work?

I worked with a real policeman in Fayetteville NC in the 70's in a bar strip known as combat alley outside of Ft. Bragg and a half Lumbee River Indian cut his back from arm pit to arm pit and I used necessary force to cause him to experience discomfort for about eight weeks and learn to mastrabate with his other hand. The real police put him in handcuffs, took him to the station and then in an elevator at the police station and filled the elevator with pepper spray and the guy on the second floor did the same sending him back down to the first floor until they got tired of that... then after booking the real police took him to the hospital to have his broken arm set.

I stood at attention and wept for joy reading that post.

Me?

I'd have gotten a chair and stick to press the floor button with. I'm thinking 8 hours easy, with a lunch break.

 

[jfuh]

Re: Doest torture work?

amazing. list a link with proof that is has without a doubt worked, and partisans still vote no.

intellectual honesty just isnt some folks strong point.

A link is all that is needed? Haha, simple then. I'll match your link and then raise additionally.
Source 1
Source 2
Source 3

How about scientific reviews of the process?
Source 4
Source 5

Want more? It's not too difficult to find credible sources on the fact that torture produces unreliable and often false information.
Want a real world example? Israel. They banned torture because a) it does not work b) Israel became the ppl they were fighting against for survival.

So now in the midst of all these links are you going to withdraw your assertion that torture works? Something tells me no.

 

[teacher]

Re: Doest torture work?

Now.

Let's deal with the title question.

You know this or that.

Dude walks up to lay some pliers to your balls.

Tell us you're not gonna talk.

Don't make me tell a Hanoi Hilton story.

You'll lose.

Answer the question.

 

[tecoyah]

Re: Doest torture work?

amazing. list a link with proof that is has without a doubt worked, and partisans still vote no.

intellectual honesty just isnt some folks strong point.

Quite simply Put....it may very wellwork sometimes, So does Nuclear War. The end may not justify the means in either case though.

 

[mixedmedia]

Re: Doest torture work?

Now.

Let's deal with the title question.

You know this or that.

Dude walks up to lay some pliers to your balls.

Tell us you're not gonna talk.

Don't make me tell a Hanoi Hilton story.

You'll lose.

Answer the question.

I'm not going to answer the question because the poll is insipid. He has given two examples of when torture worked and wants to get positive results based on those two examples only. Two out of how many?

And I am against the use of torture. I am against the use of torture because I don't want my kids to grow up in a country with the same values as Syria. I don't want to see a generation of American children grow up thinking that torture is right. And it makes no difference who the people are we torture, what they did or what they were wearing when we caught them. Does anyone realize that many of the detainees we capture, such as those notorious captives at Abu Ghraib, are picked up in neighborhood sweeps? Many of the people we tortured there were consequently let go because either they did not belong there or they didn't have any material information. When you're dealing with an enemy that fights out of houses in the middle of neighborhoods there is no way of guaranteeing that everyone you pick up is a combatant. Do you suppose in a battle and the ensuing chaos our soldiers are able to make these distinctions clearly at all times? Of course, the people I am directing this at don't care. So why bother? You don't care if innocent people fall through the cracks and suffer at our hands injustly. Just as long as someone is being tortured for information they may or may not have. I'd like to know where in the American ethic such behavior is written. Because I suspect the tide on who is considered anti-American in this country just might be turning.

 

[teacher]

Re: Doest torture work?

Quite simply Put....it may very wellwork sometimes, So does Nuclear War. The end may not justify the means in either case though.

I have decided to bring it just a little more.

You skipped a few recent posts to get to one you could deal with, right over mine.

Listen, many see that, what you do, and know.

tecoyah, now, deal with me.

I'm bringing it, just a little more.

I've decided my posts will no longer be "skipped" over so you folks can deal with something a little more "palatable".

I'm bringing lots of "guests" here. Folks are coming here to see my pyramid thing. They might be staying a while. You folks might want to start paying attention to the "views" category. See who's "bringing" what. It ain't you. Never has been.

Softball is done.

The teacher show is on the road and large. I've shown you where to see it and the numbers so far. Hiding just don't get it no more.

In the past, when I ask something, you ignore it, talk to someone else's post, "skip" over mine. There's a lot of "guests" coming here now. Because of me. Letting you guys slide is done.

From now on, when I make a post and add "show time". You'd better deal with what I asked you. Or ugly ensues.

teacher will not let sh**t slide no more.


Know how now and then I say things like, "when I'm in a foul mood"?

That would be now.


Get it?

Show time.

 

[tecoyah]

Re: Doest torture work?

I have decided to bring it just a little more.

You skipped a few recent posts to get to one you could deal with, right over mine.

Actually....I skipped a post that made little sense, and was phrased in such a way as to be rather vague on intent. If by chance you can manage to express yourself in a way that makes a point worth pondering....I will reply to you.

Listen, many see that, what you do, and know.

tecoyah, now, deal with me.

I'm bringing it, just a little more.

Is that really what you are doing Teacher, because if this is "Bringing it"....perhaps you've just proven the inadequacy underlying your general persona.

I've decided my posts will no longer be "skipped" over so you folks can deal with something a little more "palatable".

What YOU decide is actually rather irrelevant, as you are far less than you believe you are....But, thats for another thread, another place.

I'm bringing lots of "guests" here. Folks are coming here to see my pyramid thing. They might be staying a while. You folks might want to start paying attention to the "views" category. See who's "bringing" what. It ain't you. Never has been.

Get over yourself....seems everyone else has

Softball is done.

The teacher show is on the road and large. I've shown you where to see it and the numbers so far. Hiding just don't get it no more.

In the past, when I ask something, you ignore it, talk to someone else's post, "skip" over mine. There's a lot of "guests" coming here now. Because of me. Letting you guys slide is done.

This is true...I have skipped over your posts for the most part, as is my perogative when something is not worthwhile, though it is not for you to decide what slides....Dear Warden.

From now on, when I make a post and add "show time". You'd better deal with what I asked you. Or ugly ensues.

Are you....attempting to be intimidating, it's simply not fitting Teach...dont go there, Humor works far better for you.

teacher will not let sh**t slide no more.


Know how now and then I say things like, "when I'm in a foul mood"?

That would be now.


Get it?

Show time.

If you insist on projecting your "Foul Mood" onto me....that is your choice, I will be happy to play when I get back from work tonight, But please....put a bit more into it than that so as to make this worthwhile....OK?

 

[teacher]

Re: Doest torture work?

I'm not going to answer the question because the poll is insipid. He has given two examples of when torture worked and wants to get positive results based on those two examples only. Two out of how many?

And I am against the use of torture. I am against the use of torture because I don't want my kids to grow up in a country with the same values as Syria. I don't want to see a generation of American children grow up thinking that torture is right. And it makes no difference who the people are we torture, what they did or what they were wearing when we caught them. Does anyone realize that many of the detainees we capture, such as those notorious captives at Abu Ghraib, are picked up in neighborhood sweeps? Many of the people we tortured there were consequently let go because either they did not belong there or they didn't have any material information. When you're dealing with an enemy that fights out of houses in the middle of neighborhoods there is no way of guaranteeing that everyone you pick up is a combatant. Do you suppose in a battle and the ensuing chaos our soldiers are able to make these distinctions clearly at all times? Of course, the people I am directing this at don't care. So why bother? You don't care if innocent people fall through the cracks and suffer at our hands injustly. Just as long as someone is being tortured for information they may or may not have. I'd like to know where in the American ethic such behavior is written. Because I suspect the tide on who is considered anti-American in this country just might be turning.

Lemme put it in terms you can understand then.

Say teacher is on the plane that before it smashed into the Pentegon. Hypothetical now. I'm as tuff as they come. I'm a man's man. I get the word. There's what, four little boys holding this plane? Number one. No one on my watch is gonna take a plane with a friggin knife. Period. I'll end that by my fu*king self. If need be. But I got the word. These fu*ks are gonna start losing eyes right then and there if they don't answer my questions.

Any more planes?

Who set this up?

Who do you work for?

Oh, my bad, but you still have one good eye.

Next question.

It's how I think, it's how I work.

Just is.


There are still some men left in this world.

Just ask Gunny. Or Topsez.

I could care less what jail I land in or what anyone thinks. I'm thinking lives.

See folks, I've been telling you long time when you lose a child, EVERYTHING changes, perspectives cahnge. This is part of it.



Just is.

 

[mixedmedia]

Re: Doest torture work?

Lemme put it in terms you can understand then.

Say teacher is on the plane that before it smashed into the Pentegon. Hypothetical now. I'm as tuff as they come. I'm a man's man. I get the word. There's what, four little boys holding this plane? Number one. No one on my watch is gonna take a plane with a friggin knife. Period. I'll end that by my fu*king self. If need be. But I got the word. These fu*ks are gonna start losing eyes right then and there if they don't answer my questions.

Any more planes?

Who set this up?

Who do you work for?

Oh, my bad, but you still have one good eye.

Next question.

It's how I think, it's how I work.

Just is.


There are still some men left in this world.

Just ask Gunny. Or Topsez.

I could care less what jail I land in or what anyone thinks. I'm thinking lives.

See folks, I've been telling you long time when you lose a child, EVERYTHING changes, perspectives cahnge. This is part of it.



Just is.

Well, teach, you know I feel for you about the loss of your son. It is a devasatation that none of us parents should ever have to face. But many of us do every day. Often in ways that is no one's fault, such as in the loss of your child.

So I will go on to say, hopefully without minimizing the significance of your loss, that to me, America is about more than self-preservation. We have a way of life and a set of principles to defend, as well. And if we start handing those principles over to our enemies then soon we might have hardly anything left to fight for. America equals more than the sum of her parts.

 

[teacher]

Re: Doest torture work?

Well, teach, you know I feel for you about the loss of your son. It is a devasatation that none of us parents should ever have to face. But many of us do every day. Often in ways that is no one's fault, such as in the loss of your child.

So I will go on to say, hopefully without minimizing the significance of your loss, that to me, America is about more than self-preservation. We have a way of life and a set of principles to defend, as well. And if we start handing those principles over to our enemies then soon we might have hardly anything left to fight for. America equals more than the sum of her parts.

Got nutin to do with my son. Just put things into perspective a little more for me than they used to be. I'm teaching, you should learn.

If MEN have to bust a few skulls to keep NYC from turning to glass. They will do it.

Don't worry, if they get caught doing it, they will do the time.

Don't worry, they neither want nor expect thanks.

Don't worry, it's nothing new and nothing you can change.

The MEN are in place. Have been and will be. Ain't gonna be the likes of tecoyah that even raises the right hand to begin with.



Self preservation means nothing if there is nothing left to preserve.

Looks and sounds nice on paper mixed. Like communism.

But then that's why it is Gunny and not you standing the watch.

Go figure.

Just is.

 

[mixedmedia]

Re: Doest torture work?

Got nutin to do with my son. Just put things into perspective a little more for me than they used to be. I'm teaching, you should learn.

If MEN have to bust a few skulls to keep NYC from turning to glass. They will do it.

Don't worry, if they get caught doing it, they will do the time.

Don't worry, they neither want nor expect thanks.

Don't worry, it's nothing new and nothing you can change.

The MEN are in place. Have been and will be. Ain't gonna be the likes of tecoyah that even raises the right hand to begin with.



Self preservation means nothing if there is nothing left to preserve.

Looks and sounds nice on paper mixed. Like communism.

But then that's why it is Gunny and not you standing the watch.

Go figure.

Just is.

So you're saying that torture is going to prevent a nuclear bomb from going off in New York? You see, it's this sort of speculative logic that makes me fear for America even more.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Re: Doest torture work?

It torture did not work, then they would not do it.

Is Torture Morally Right? Of course not. You would think our supposedly God Fearing President would know that.

McCain has taken a lot of heat from the radical right and the religious right on opposing the Bush Administration on torture and pushing for fair trials, but we have to remember that while our President was out partying and cutting lines of coke out with his silver spoon friends, McCain was rotting in the Hanoi Hilton wondering when the next time some commie would be come in and crank electricity through his genitals.

Moreover, what about these guys that get tortured and come to find out, they don’t know anything and were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. If something is wrong, then it is wrong. Torture is wrong.

 

[ProudAmerican]

Re: Doest torture work?

There really isn’t a debate on this topic. It has been demonstrated, and accepted, repeatedly that torture, coercion by physical pain, does not work. You will not get reliable information form a torture victim. Rumsfeld has said that repeatedly.

proof was posted to the contrary in my opening post.

 

[mixedmedia]

Re: Doest torture work?

So you're saying that torture is going to prevent a nuclear bomb from going off in New York? You see, it's this sort of specious logic that makes me fear for America even more.

'cause I'm a little compulsive this way, I'd like to change this statement to use the word I meant to use, but in my hasty typing screwed up....sorry, as you were....forget you even saw this...

 

[Vader]

Re: Doest torture work?

Torture is more or less the oldest and most ineffective way of getting information from people.

To a certain degree, it appears to work; however, this is an illusion. After being tortured for a given period of time; a subject will tell you whatever you want to hear just to make the torture to stop.

As these people are likely in serious or even criticial condition when they eventually talk, it is next to impossible to verify the information is correct. Moreover, the information obtained in this way has a tendency to be unreliable.

Information extraction is better done with drugs like Sodium Pentathol (aka TRUTH SYRUM). The information gathered in this fashion will be more reliable because it comes from a willing source who is not just saying what he must to avert continual torture.

Just my :twocents:.

 

[mixedmedia]

Re: Doest torture work?

Torture is more or less the oldest and most ineffective way of getting information from people.

To a certain degree, it appears to work; however, this is an illusion. After being tortured for a given period of time; a subject will tell you whatever you want to hear just to make the torture to stop.

As these people are likely in serious or even criticial condition when they eventually talk, it is next to impossible to verify the information is correct. Moreover, the information obtained in this way has a tendency to be unreliable.

Information extraction is better done with drugs like Sodium Pentathol (aka TRUTH SYRUM). The information gathered in this fashion will be more reliable because it comes from a willing source who is not just saying what he must to avert continual torture.

Just my :twocents:.

That's an excellent point. And why don't we use Sodium Pentathol? Do you know?

 

[Morrow]

Re: Doest torture work?

proof was posted to the contrary in my opening post.

I said reliable information consistently. When attempting to create a process by which one can repeatedly retrieve reliable information the number of successes are irreverent if they are less than the alternatives.