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Do you support Trump forcibly staying in office in spite of cheating or losing?

Do you support Trump forcibly staying in office in spite of cheating or losing?

  • Total voters
    51
The Twentieth Amendment says that the president’s and vice president’s terms “shall end at noon on the 20th day of January … and the terms of their successors shall then begin.”

What Trump may (probably?) do now that he's had over 600 USPS auto-sorters removed and targeted post offices closed (in blue areas), is declare that all votes must be counted before midnight on November 3rd.

All votes not yet counted by that deadline are null and void.
 
Cardinal said:
The assumption is one of two scenarios:

1)Trump openly steals the election, by way of shutting down the mail (since it's assumed that Democrats will make up the majority of mail-in ballots) or through other means of targeting populations known to vote Democrat like suing states that send out ballots to voters, or other means he has yet to try.

2)He ignores the outcome of the election in spite of a loss.

For context, the postmaster general has said he has no intention of returning the mail sorters he's dismantled, and additional sorters are being observed to be removed as well.

This is in addition to trump saying, 'The only way we're going to lose this election is if the election is rigged."

Also, this exchange between a reporter and the WH spokesperson:

Reporter: "Is the President saying if he doesn't win this election that he will not accept the results unless he wins?"

Kayleigh McEnany: "The President has always said he'll see what happens and make a determination in the aftermath."

https://twitter.com/SpeakerPelosi/status/1296148989646188546
https://twitter.com/svdate/status/1296144645437751296

If you don't consider the first scenario to be cheating, then it's assumed you don't believe in free and fair elections, or have given no thought to what a "free and fair election" is. At best, you simply don't believe in democratic principles.

If you voted "no," consider the question that Bill Maher has for every Democrat who comes on his show and which he has yet to receive a coherent answer to: "What are you going to do if Trump refuses to leave office? He's got the army and the tough guys on his side. What is the plan?"
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That worries almost as much as a moon-size asteroid smashing into the planet on Nov 4, 2020.

You guys work yourselves into such frenzies over nonsensical stuff. :roll:

If I were you I'd worry more about whether Trump's cheating is more effect than the Dems cheating. You guys do have experience on your side so it's probably not a big deal.
 
Rogue Valley said:
The Twentieth Amendment says that the president’s and vice president’s terms “shall end at noon on the 20th day of January … and the terms of their successors shall then begin.”

What Trump may (probably?) do now that he's had over 600 USPS auto-sorters removed and targeted post offices closed (in blue areas), is declare that all votes must be counted before midnight on November 3rd.

All votes not yet counted by that deadline are null and void.
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The states run their own elections. Trump has no say in the time limits for counting. If it takes a little longer, so be it. We can wait. It won't change Jan. 20th.
 
dave8383 said:
Don't be ridiculous. If Trump loses he won't have the military or anyone else except maybe Fox News.
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If I had told you three years ago that trump would dismantle the post office to prevent Democrats from casting mail-in votes, and if I told you that he said he could only lose if the election was rigged, and if I told you he'd say multiple times that he would serve a third term, and if I had told you Republicans would be completely silent about all of this...you would have told me to not be ridiculous.

It's time to accept that the ridiculous is here.
 
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Cardinal said:
If I had told you three years ago that trump would dismantle the post office to prevent Democrats from casting mail-in votes, and if I told you that he said he could only lose if the election was rigged, and if I told you the he'd say multiple times that he would serve a third term, and if I had told you Republicans would be completely silent about all of this..you would have told me to not be ridiculous.

It's time to accept that the ridiculous is here.
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Don't be ridiculous. If Trump loses he won't have the military or anyone else except maybe Fox News. If you're not president any longer how the hell could you be CIC?
 
dave8383 said:
Don't be ridiculous. If Trump loses he won't have the military or anyone else except maybe Fox News.
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Would you have thought any of the predictions to be "ridiculous?'
 
dave8383 said:
If you're not president any longer how the hell could you be CIC?
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Would you have thought any of the predictions to be "ridiculous?'
 
Rumpel said:
Why is that so?
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A strawman argument in philosophy is making up a scenario, attributing that scenario to your debating opponent, for example, and then arguing the merits of the made up scenario.

The made up scenario is Trump forcefully staying in office even if he's been unelected or found to be cheating.
 
Cardinal said:
What is the mechanism for showing him the door? There are no more Mattises.
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Unless President Donald Trump is officially reelected by a vote of the electoral college recognized by the U.S. House of Representatives then his term ends automatically at 12 noon, January 20th, 2021

That can't be changed.
 
cabse5 said:
A strawman argument in philosophy is making up a scenario, attributing that scenario to your debating opponent, for example, and then arguing the merits of the made up scenario.

The made up scenario is Trump forcefully staying in office even if he's been unelected or found to be cheating.
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Um...no. That is not what a strawman is. Not even close.
 
Cardinal said:
If I had told you three years ago that trump would dismantle the post office to prevent Democrats from casting mail-in votes, and if I told you that he said he could only lose if the election was rigged, and if I told you the he'd say multiple times that he would serve a third term, and if I had told you Republicans would be completely silent about all of this..you would have told me to not be ridiculous.

It's time to accept that the ridiculous is here.
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Trump dismantling the post office to prevent dems from casting mail in votes is another strawman argument. You are the strawman argument king.
 
Rogue Valley said:
The Twentieth Amendment says that the president’s and vice president’s terms “shall end at noon on the 20th day of January … and the terms of their successors shall then begin.”

What Trump may (probably?) do now that he's had over 600 USPS auto-sorters removed and targeted post offices closed (in blue areas), is declare that all votes must be counted before midnight on November 3rd.

All votes not yet counted by that deadline are null and void.
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His word is not the law.

Elections are the states purview
 
Cardinal said:
Um...no. That is not what a strawman is. Not even close.
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Right. You set up a fanciful hypothetical situation and then pretend that imaginary people just might support your hypothetical.
 
Cardinal said:
I'm saying that anybody he considers to be disloyal...in other words anyone who would consider their allegiance to the Constitution and not to him...are long gone.
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A presidents control over the Secret Service is limited.
 
This election is going to be so contested due to interference and fraud that I don't see how we don't get a huge conflagration over the results, regardless of who officially wins.

If either candidate loses by a close margin, there will at minimal, undoubtedly, be a recount. Both will probably claim corruption and reject any election that results in their loss, claiming it to be rigged. Even though the election isn't decided by popular vote. Trump will probably have to be physically removed on the morning of Jan. 20, 2021, as an ex-president and private citizen, if he feels he has enough public support.


Why Trump can’t just refuse to leave office if he loses the election.

On the dot of noon, the nuclear codes, which currently allow Trump to order and authenticate a nuclear attack, expire. The officer who has been following him around everywhere with the “football”—which, contrary to popular belief, is not a button or a palm print but rather a book filled with various launch codes—leaves. If Trump and whatever lackeys stay with him prevent the officer from leaving, another officer, holding a backup football, would join Biden at the inauguration ceremony.

By the same token, the entire U.S. military establishment will pivot away from ex-President Trump and salute President Biden. The principle of civilian control is hammered into American officers from the time they’re cadets—and the 20th Amendment of the Constitution states, “The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January”—no ifs, ands, or buts.

If Trump orders the military to do anything, they will refuse his order. If any officers obey his order—say, to circle the White House to keep him in power—they would certainly be tried and convicted on charges of mutiny and sedition, and they would know this before taking the leap.

Meanwhile, the Secret Service will abandon Trump, as they do every president whose term is up, except for a small detail assigned to protect him and his family for the rest of their lives.

Overseas, foreign leaders will cut off relations with the U.S. ambassadors in their capitals and await instructions from Biden or his acting secretary of state.

Meanwhile, Biden’s acting attorney general will have drawn up arrest warrants for Donald J. Trump and anyone who remains at his side on charges—at minimum—of criminal trespassing. If Trump calls on the armed forces or militias or the nation’s sheriffs to come defend him, he might also be charged with incitement or insurrection.

If any of Trump’s aides or Cabinet officers continue to take his orders, they too could face criminal charges and, in any case, would have a hard time finding respectable employment after the pretend monarch is taken away in handcuffs.

If armed militiamen and sheriffs rally to the White House and they refuse to let U.S. marshals through the gates, a small contingent of Secret Service or the National Guard could be called up to enforce the law. If that doesn’t work, a few M1 tanks rolling down Pennsylvania Avenue should make the would-be rebels flee. It would be terrible if the standoff came to this, but Commander in Chief Biden would have this option available, if necessary.

In other words, Trump could hole himself up in the Oval Office, but the Oval Office would very soon be cut off from all power. He would have no choice but to give up. It is hard to imagine, even in this time of hard-to-imagine things happening, that a single Supreme Court justice or more than a handful of congressional Republicans—and probably not a single member of the GOP leadership, not even Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (who, depending on how Election Day had gone, might be downgraded to minority leader on Inauguration Day)—would stand up for Trump’s blatantly unconstitutional ploy to stay in power.
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nota bene said:
Right. You set up a fanciful hypothetical situation and then pretend that imaginary people just might support your hypothetical.
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So don't vote in the poll. It's not like you've ever exhibited the moral clarity to say something substantive anyway.
 
I think whether any of this comes to pass... Its now or I think it’s inevitable, it’s later.

People don’t consider how the levers of power in the United States work, sure I know what the constitution says...

But it’s only a piece of paper.

If the election results are dubious And Trump loses or if enough people believe they’re dubious... And the senate does not have a 2/3rds majority to remove him... and 40% of the population has all but proclaimed he can do as he pleases, there’s no telling what can happen.

But this is a larger issue that has 3 components.

Misinformation - massive portions of the population live in a dream world of their own creation or the creation of propagandists.

Socio-Economic - as America becomes more and more unequal, it will become more and more unstable, this plays into misinformation as well, especially when people live in such a dream world that they vote away their own social safety net.

Political corruption - the entire system is rotten from the top down, it doesn’t serve the people, rather it more and more serves the exclusive whim of massive corporations and Billionaires.

There is far more such as the extra ordinary powers of the State Security Apparatus...

But with all this in mind America is on a collision course for disaster, it’s only a matter of time unless it changes course, Trump or not, Biden or not, I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

Don’t get me wrong, Biden is infinitely better... BUT like Obama... how much he can realistically get done or wants to get done to correct this disastrous course, COVID aside, is gonna be interesting to see.
 
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