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Do you support scrapping the H1-B Visa program?

Gatsby said:
I agree, the H1B visa program creates a lot of economic distortions and its rife with abuse at all levels.

I'm fine with replacing it with more green cards awarded meritocratically. But I suspect that if it was eliminated, it would most likely be replaced with nothing at all.
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It’s the exploitation that is the problem, not the program itself.

Sometimes there truly is a need for temporary talent OR importing talent.

But more often than not in the past years it is simply being used as a way to not pay a citizen or a GC holder for the job 🤷‍♀️

At least from what I’ve watched - and I’ve worked from the start up to the Fortune 50 in tech and engineering over that 20ish year timespan and only watched greater and greater reliance on H1 visas as a primary hiring method…instead of it being a “last resort” like it’s designed to be.
 
Gatsby said:
If you acknowledge that bringing in high-skilled workers expands the economy then what exactly is the problem?
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Because Bringing in low skilled workers also expands the economy.

So why not train Americans for the high paying jobs and import people to do the grunt wirk?
Gatsby said:
I already answered the second half of this question. As for the first half, it's a red herring. I'm fine with allowing some low-skilled immigration too, but it's not relevant to the topic of this thread.
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Of course its relevant to the topic of this thread.
Gatsby said:
This is simply not true
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Of course its true.

Believing it not to be true leads to some very ugly (and very wrong) conclusions about how our economy should operate.
Gatsby said:
There are probably a few underachieving smart people here and there in the United States, limited by a lack of education, but the main bottleneck is that 95% of people lack either the raw intelligence, interest, or motivation to do certain high-skilled jobs. And that's not something that can be fixed by throwing more money at the problem.
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Utter nonsense.

There are tons of intelligent Americans all of those jobs if we invested in them.
 
NolanVoyd said:
Because Bringing in low skilled workers also expands the economy.
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This is a total red herring and doesn't make any sense. Why would low-skill workers expanding the economy have any bearing whatsoever on whether or not we admit high-skilled workers? What does this have to do with anything? No one even said anything about admitting low-skilled workers.

So why not train Americans for the high paying jobs
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Same reason as the last three times you asked it.
 
Gatsby said:
This is a total red herring
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No its not.

given the fact that bringinging in low skilled or high skilled workers expands the economy, why not train Americans for the high paying jobs and import people for the grunt work?

If you think that is red herring you dont know what the term means.
Gatsby said:
and doesn't make any sense. Why would low-skill workers expanding the economy have any bearing whatsoever on whether or not we admit high-skilled workers? What does this have to do with anything?
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because it would be better to invest in Americans to do the high skilled jobs and import laborers, then importing people for the high skilled jobs and preserving the grunt work for Americans.

not hard to understand.
Gatsby said:
Same reason as the last three times you asked it.
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NolanVoyd said:
No its not.

given the fact that bringinging in low skilled or high skilled workers expands the economy, why not train Americans for the high paying jobs and import people for the grunt work?

If you think that is red herring you dont know what the term means.

because it would be better to invest in Americans to do the high skilled jobs and import laborers, then importing people for the high skilled jobs and preserving the grunt work for Americans.

not hard to understand.
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Have a nice weekend. 👋
 
NolanVoyd said:
because it would be better to invest in Americans to do the high skilled jobs and import laborers, then importing people for the high skilled jobs and preserving the grunt work for Americans.
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Why? There are literally millions of highly intelligent and extremely qualified people in the world right now who would love to come here and work, yet you want to keep them out. It seems to me your position is based on nothing but xenophobic nationalism.
 
aociswundumho said:
Why? There are literally millions of highly intelligent and extremely qualified people in the world right now who would love to come here and work, yet you want to keep them out. It seems to me your position is based on nothing but xenophobic nationalism.
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My position. Is based on helping my fellow Americans, and allowing immigrants to come in and work their way up, instead of importing an upper class, and keeping Americans at the bottom.
 
BirdinHand said:
It’s the exploitation that is the problem, not the program itself.

Sometimes there truly is a need for temporary talent OR importing talent.

But more often than not in the past years it is simply being used as a way to not pay a citizen or a GC holder for the job 🤷‍♀️

At least from what I’ve watched - and I’ve worked from the start up to the Fortune 50 in tech and engineering over that 20ish year timespan and only watched greater and greater reliance on H1 visas as a primary hiring method…instead of it being a “last resort” like it’s designed to be.
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Almost from the beginning the H1B program was being referred to as the "Train your lower paid foreign replacement" program.
 
aociswundumho said:
Why? There are literally millions of highly intelligent and extremely qualified people in the world right now who would love to come here and work, yet you want to keep them out. It seems to me your position is based on nothing but xenophobic nationalism.
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My position is that prior to importing - at least follow actual existing immigration law and prove that there isn’t an American or GC holder that can do the job.

Close the loopholes.

Yes, we NEED immigrants.

But before we import Java developers, for example, at least pretend to try to hire Americans and GC holders first.

Post the job, get the pool of applicants, screen the applicants. At least pretend to try.

Don’t just turn around and hand Infosys 20 Java developer positions to be filled by H1 visa holders without even putting the jobs out to the Americans and GC holders first. Or at all.
 
NolanVoyd said:
My position. Is based on helping my fellow Americans, and allowing immigrants to come in and work their way up, instead of importing an upper class, and keeping Americans at the bottom.
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Bringing in highly skilled workers does not "keep Americans at the bottom", in any way, shape, or form. The economy is not a fixed pie, and there isn't a fixed number of jobs.

Where a person is born is irrelevant.

Hey @Jredbaron96 this is what I'm talking about regarding modern left-wing nationalism. They are diehard collectivists and nationalism is a form of collectivism.
 
aociswundumho said:
Why? What difference does it make as to where the person was born?
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To an anarchist that doesn’t believe in nations and governments and instead wants unregulated free market where anything goes, I’m sure it doesn’t 🤷‍♀️
 
aociswundumho said:
Bringing in highly skilled workers does not "keep Americans at the bottom", in any way, shape, or form.
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Sure it does. When we could invest in training Americans to do thosw high end jobs, instead of importing people to do them.
aociswundumho said:
The economy is not a fixed pie, and there isn't a fixed number of jobs.
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right.

bringing in low skilled labor and investing in training Americans both expand the economy and are better options then importing high skilled labor.
aociswundumho said:
Where a person is born is irrelevant.

Hey @Jredbaron96 this is what I'm talking about regarding modern left-wing nationalism. They are diehard collectivists and nationalism is a form of collectivism.
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I am niether a nationalist nor a collectivist.

Lying about people is a bad look.
 
aociswundumho said:
For anyone who doesn't know, this is an idiotic program designed to limit the number of highly skilled immigrants allowed into the country to about 80k. There is an enormous demand for these visas. Those of you with at least two brain cells to rub together might be wondering why on earth anyone would want to limit the number of highly-educated, highly-skilled, and highly productive people into the country. Well, this is the kind of terrible law democracies produce.

Before you answer the question in the title, consider two men, both born on the same day thirty years ago. They both have high IQs, and both have a master's degree in electrical engineering. One of the men was born in America. When he enters the workforce, it is indisputable that he will be a net benefit to American society. The other man was born in India. Believe it or not, many people think that allowing the Indian man to enter the US workforce will be detrimental to American society, hence the need for programs like H1-B to limit the "harm". Exact same education, training, and experience, yet one is a godsend and the other is a curse because of where they were born.
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Yes. Its the lets make billionaires richer program
 
BirdinHand said:
To an anarchist that doesn’t believe in nations and governments and instead wants unregulated free market where anything goes, I’m sure it doesn’t 🤷‍♀️
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Shouldn't we want what's best for the people, and not what's best for the state?
 
We should seek to have an immigration system and guest worker that makes America economically stronger, promotes high wages, and promotes a strong middle class.

Whether people in other countries miss out because of that policy is of relatively minor concern.
 
aociswundumho said:
For anyone who doesn't know, this is an idiotic program designed to limit the number of highly skilled immigrants allowed into the country to about 80k. There is an enormous demand for these visas. Those of you with at least two brain cells to rub together might be wondering why on earth anyone would want to limit the number of highly-educated, highly-skilled, and highly productive people into the country. Well, this is the kind of terrible law democracies produce.

Before you answer the question in the title, consider two men, both born on the same day thirty years ago. They both have high IQs, and both have a master's degree in electrical engineering. One of the men was born in America. When he enters the workforce, it is indisputable that he will be a net benefit to American society. The other man was born in India. Believe it or not, many people think that allowing the Indian man to enter the US workforce will be detrimental to American society, hence the need for programs like H1-B to limit the "harm". Exact same education, training, and experience, yet one is a godsend and the other is a curse because of where they were born.
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Yes, end it.
 
aociswundumho said:
If you are not a nationalist, then why does the nationality of the workforce matter?
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Thinking we should train Anericans for high end jobs before importing people does not make one a nationalist.
 
aociswundumho said:
Shouldn't we want what's best for the people, and not what's best for the state?
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Never in the course of human history has importing foreign workers for substandard wages in the and keeping them in a status that isn’t equivalent to the other members of a population been “best” for them.

H1 visa holders are in a temporary status. With no path to citizenship unless someone changes their status by sponsoring them for a green card.

They are, effectively, indentured servants to their visa holders 🤷‍♀️
 
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