Do you support having a legal duty to retreat? [W:79]

[joko104]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

Have you ever heard the phrase "balancing test"? That will answer all of your questions. Except the bit about the knee pads. I don't know what's up with that.

The "tactic" of getting on your knees and begging "please don't hurt me."

 

[TiredOfLife]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

The "tactic" of getting on your knees and begging "please don't hurt me."

Roughly that was suggested by Jesus. Ye of little faith.

 

[joko104]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

Absolutely right. A trainer I hold in high respect says to never try to do tac ops, like houseclearing, with someone you haven't trained with, that it is safer to do it alone that with an 'unknown factor' at your back. In most scenarios I tend to agree with him.

A fella we know was a Marine squad leader in the Helman District of Afghanistan. They were the first squad to reach the Western border with Pakistan and they did it without support and on foot, village by village. His squad was significantly lower than it supposed to be. The reason was because he ordered nearly half his squad to stay behind - making up reasons - because he didn't want them along. He wanted only fully competent squad members he felt all could 100% rely upon each other with full confidence in their competency. In his opinion, anyone lesser would be an intolerable weak link that would endanger all of them from many directions.

Possibly amazingly, his squad had many engagements with the enemy, yet did not suffer one casualty. Not just none of his squad killed, but none injured or wounded in any way. Yet they hunted aggressively. Very.

His strongest complaint against even the Marines is they let far too many incompetent men pass thru boot camp.

And who he preferred was interesting too. He grew up on a farm and began hunting with a single shot .22, alone, starting at age 8. He wanted members of his squad who were either hunters or fighters prior to service, because in his view that is what they were doing. Hunting down the enemy and then fighting them. He himself had been a hunter for many years and as champion wrestler. What he wasn't willing to do was train men along the way because this was the real thing, not rehearsals or training execises.

 

[joko104]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

Roughly that was suggested by Jesus. Ye of little faith.

I don't seem to recall hearing anyone ever say Jesus did that.

 

[TiredOfLife]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

I don't seem to recall hearing anyone ever say Jesus did that.

You mean that big fight he didn't put up before being taken to the cross to be nailed to it, or that advice he gave about not fearing your enemies, praying for them,. and turning the other cheek when someone slaps you in those things we call Gospels? I would imagine you haven't, that's true for most Christians.

 

[SMTA]

Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

Most other people can grasp the distinction between that odds of a would-be assailant attacking armed officers with their weapons drawn and an unarmed lone individual. Anyone but SMTA not understand the difference?

SMTA has common sense and does not make up wild extrapolations using the Zimmerman/Martin case.

 

[Jerry]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

The oppose of SYG is the Duty to Retreat.

Which is the way you may or must react to a threatening bully? You can stand your ground? Or you have to run away?

Which way is it towards someone bent on assaulting you? You can stand your ground or you must run away?

Do you have a legal duty to let the bully or intimidating person hit or kick you, your wife, grandparent, child etc first before you can defend yourself or others?

I do not support a duty to retreate.

 

[GottaGo]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

Each person needs to judge each situation on it's own merits....

If retreat is a viable option, with the absolute that no one under my protection will get hurt, then that is what I will seek. However, if there is the tiniest doubt that it's not a viable option, then I will SMG and defend.

I don't want to take another person's life, no matter their actions... but I will if I must.

In short, I support it as a possible choice.... I DO NOT support it as a law.

 

[paddymcdougall]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

So what you are saying is that Jews that died in the Holocaust were competent or incompetent? What about the people on that died in that mass-shooting theater? Is Asimov claiming they were competent or incompetent people?

Actually, in these cases it was the Nazis and the theater shooter who were incompetent. They resorted to violence, and it got them nothing in the long run.

Lots of reactions to a sci fi quote! Of course maxims and aphorisms and biblical 'turn the other cheek' don't always work.

But let's work it through the Z case - if he had been thinking more clearly, he wouldn't have followed M and found himself in a situation where (he felt) he had to shoot or die.

Are there times violence is necessary? Sure. But smart people do everything they can to avoid being in a situation where it becomes necessary. And part of that is retreating when it's appropriate instead of staying in a situation, killing someone, and falling back on "SYG" type laws.

 

[Goshin]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

Roughly that was suggested by Jesus. Ye of little faith.

A vast oversimplification that could be summed up as "Uh not really."


I can delve into the theology of it if you wish, though this may not be the correct venue.

 

[Goshin]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

You mean that big fight he didn't put up before being taken to the cross to be nailed to it, or that advice he gave about not fearing your enemies, praying for them,. and turning the other cheek when someone slaps you in those things we call Gospels? I would imagine you haven't, that's true for most Christians.

Yeah okay, I can't let this stand.

"If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight."

"When a strong man fully armed guards his palace, his goods are at peace. For how shall they spoil the house except they first bind the strong man?"

Speaking to his disciples about how they were to survive and carry on after he was gone.. (Luke 22): "... let him who has no sword, sell his cloak and buy one."


The biz about being struck on the right cheek and turning also the left is widely misunderstood... this was an INSULT, not an assault. In those days an assault would be a spear through the guts. A slap to the face was an insult, a challenge, because it was the sort of thing a master would do to a slave, or that a man might do to a misbehaving child or woman. The context makes it clear that we're talking about not responding to insults with more insults or escalation. Notice that the scripture does NOT say "and if a man wishes to push a spear through your guts and rape your children, stand there and let him." Uh, no.

And this same Jesus made a scourge of cords and beat the snot out of the moneychangers in the temple, showing that using force against evil was acceptable.


There's lots lots more, but that will suffice for now.

 

[Mach]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

Up to individual to live with the decision, but forced by law? No.

There's lots lots more, but that will suffice for now.

While argument from theology makes no sense to me, your refutation from theology was nice work.

 

[Goshin]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

Up to individual to live with the decision, but forced by law? No.


While argument from theology makes no sense to me, your refutation from theology was nice work.

Well, I consider it "internal"... that is, if you're Christian it matters to you, if you aren't well there is no reason for it to matter to you. For those of us who are, I felt compelled to post a refutation.

 

[SMTA]

Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

Well, I consider it "internal"... that is, if you're Christian it matters to you, if you aren't well there is no reason for it to matter to you. For those of us who are, I felt compelled to post a refutation.

Thank you very much.

 

[TiredOfLife]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

Yeah okay, I can't let this stand.

"If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight."

"When a strong man fully armed guards his palace, his goods are at peace. For how shall they spoil the house except they first bind the strong man?"

Speaking to his disciples about how they were to survive and carry on after he was gone.. (Luke 22): "... let him who has no sword, sell his cloak and buy one."


The biz about being struck on the right cheek and turning also the left is widely misunderstood... this was an INSULT, not an assault. In those days an assault would be a spear through the guts. A slap to the face was an insult, a challenge, because it was the sort of thing a master would do to a slave, or that a man might do to a misbehaving child or woman. The context makes it clear that we're talking about not responding to insults with more insults or escalation. Notice that the scripture does NOT say "and if a man wishes to push a spear through your guts and rape your children, stand there and let him." Uh, no.

And this same Jesus made a scourge of cords and beat the snot out of the moneychangers in the temple, showing that using force against evil was acceptable.


There's lots lots more, but that will suffice for now.

There is a lot more, all of which you misunderstand apparently? In the Luke quote, how many swords did Jesus say was enough? Why did Jesus reprimand others with him at the time of his arrest and what did he say about those who use the sword? What did Jesus say you are to do if a man forces you (kidnapping) to walk a mile with him? Why were there moneychangers in the Temple in the first place and why did Jesus oppose that when it was normal Jewish practice at the time? Why did Jesus tell you to pray for you enemies instead of killing them?

 

[TiredOfLife]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

A vast oversimplification that could be summed up as "Uh not really."


I can delve into the theology of it if you wish, though this may not be the correct venue.

Do you have another venue?

 

[Torrent]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

Do you have another venue?

There are Religious Threads on this website. Or even Philosophical Threads if you think Christan reactions to Violance fall under that.

 

[Goshin]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

There is a lot more, all of which you misunderstand apparently? In the Luke quote, how many swords did Jesus say was enough? Why did Jesus reprimand others with him at the time of his arrest and what did he say about those who use the sword? What did Jesus say you are to do if a man forces you (kidnapping) to walk a mile with him? Why were there moneychangers in the Temple in the first place and why did Jesus oppose that when it was normal Jewish practice at the time? Why did Jesus tell you to pray for you enemies instead of killing them?

I'm not the one misunderstanding things, bud. For proof, let me correct just ONE of your many errors.

The "if a man compel you to walk a mile, walk two" thing had NOTHING to do with kidnapping. At the time it was LAW that certain upper-class citizens could compel any lower-class person to carry their burden for one mile. Being required UNDER LAW to carry someone's stuff for one mile is a long, long way from forcible criminal kidnapping.

Praying for my enemies is one thing. Letting them murder me and rape my family is another.


Okay, let me correct one more. When Jesus rebuked Peter, who cut off the ear of the chief priest's servant with his sword, he said "shall I not drink of this cup the Father has given me?" The reason he rebuked Peter was because Peter was trying to use force to prevent Jesus from fulfilling his destiny as a living sacrifice of God for our sins.

Some soldiers who had converted to Christianity came to Jesus and asked him what they should do. It is noteworthy that he did NOT tell them they had to quit being soldiers... instead he told them not to terrorize the common people and to be content with their pay (it was not unusual for soldiers to supplement their meager income in those days by shaking down common folks).

Are you sure you're a Christian? You don't seem to know this stuff very well...

 

[Bodi]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

There is a lot more, all of which you misunderstand apparently?

Goshin misunderstanding? I doubt it... though it did happen back in '09 once.

 

[TiredOfLife]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

Goshin misunderstanding? I doubt it... though it did happen back in '09 once.

Considering the quality of "members" here, the likelihood that he understands enough not to wet himself when using the urinal is minimal.

 

[TiredOfLife]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

I'm not the one misunderstanding things, bud. For proof, let me correct just ONE of your many errors.

The "if a man compel you to walk a mile, walk two" thing had NOTHING to do with kidnapping. At the time it was LAW that certain upper-class citizens could compel any lower-class person to carry their burden for one mile. Being required UNDER LAW to carry someone's stuff for one mile is a long, long way from forcible criminal kidnapping.

Praying for my enemies is one thing. Letting them murder me and rape my family is another.


Okay, let me correct one more. When Jesus rebuked Peter, who cut off the ear of the chief priest's servant with his sword, he said "shall I not drink of this cup the Father has given me?" The reason he rebuked Peter was because Peter was trying to use force to prevent Jesus from fulfilling his destiny as a living sacrifice of God for our sins.

Some soldiers who had converted to Christianity came to Jesus and asked him what they should do. It is noteworthy that he did NOT tell them they had to quit being soldiers... instead he told them not to terrorize the common people and to be content with their pay (it was not unusual for soldiers to supplement their meager income in those days by shaking down common folks).

Are you sure you're a Christian? You don't seem to know this stuff very well...

All Christians are either fools, slaves, or children, like you. I did enjoy your Sunday School Bible stories though.

 

[radcen]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

Considering the quality of "members" here, the likelihood that he understands enough not to wet himself when using the urinal is minimal.

All Christians are either fools, slaves, or children, like you. I did enjoy your Sunday School Bible stories though.

Oh, you're going to be a fun one to watch... while you last. :lol:

 

[Goshin]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

Considering the quality of "members" here, the likelihood that he understands enough not to wet himself when using the urinal is minimal.

Insults are typically first resorted to by someone who has no intellectual argument to make... what a surprise. Love you too, Tired.

All Christians are either fools, slaves, or children, like you. I did enjoy your Sunday School Bible stories though.

I reiterate the above, and add that I find it amusing and ironic when people who aren't even Christians wish to take one to task over scriptures they do not themselves believe in. The word hypocrisy comes to mind...

 

[TiredOfLife]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

Insults are typically first resorted to by someone who has no intellectual argument to make... what a surprise. Love you too, Tired.






I reiterate the above, and add that I find it amusing and ironic when people who aren't even Christians wish to take one to task over scriptures they do not themselves believe in. The word hypocrisy comes to mind...

The reason why you misunderstand the scriptures is because you have faith. If you were rational you'd be willing to find out what they really mean and then apply them, but if you were rational you wouldn't be a Christian since in order to be one you have to believe in utter nonsense.

 

[TiredOfLife]

Re: Do you support having a legal duty to retreat?

Oh, you're going to be a fun one to watch... while you last. :lol:

You'd better make that a big bowl of popcorn, unless these guys are even bigger ******s than they say they are?