Do you see the Ukraine as a nation of its own or as a break-away Russian province?

[noonereal]

Ukraine's status as an independent sovereign power has internationally recognized for some time now.

Yeah, petty much since about 1,000 AD.

 

[noonereal]

And after the fall of the USSR, Ukraine would have been the world's fourth (I think) largest nuclear power. Ukraine willingly gave up the nukes located in their country for assurances from the west that we would have their back.

Time to pay the piper...

3rd, not 4th

at least, that is what I read last week

they not only had insurances from the West but also from Russia.

 

[mrjurrs]

3rd, not 4th

at least, that is what I read last week

I thought I heard third as well, but then I thought...US, China, Russia, Ukraine.

 

[Rumpel]

13 out of 16 now say: a nation of its own

 

[coyote505]

Do you see the Ukraine as a nation of its own or as a break-away Russian province?

Do we see the U.S. as a nation on its own, or as a breakaway British province?

 

[Rumpel]

Do we see the U.S. as a nation on its own, or as a breakaway British province?

How would you answer your own question?
Or you might create a poll with that question.

;(

 

[Rumpel]

Do we see the U.S. as a nation on its own, or as a breakaway British province?

I suppose your question is a rhetorical question, but I will answer it.

The USA is a nation of its own, and the Ukraine is a nation of its own.

 

[coyote505]

I suppose your question is a rhetorical question, but I will answer it.

The USA is a nation of its own, and the Ukraine is a nation of its own.

Agreed. However, this does not stop our Limey cousins from referrring to us as "colonials".

I once heard a Brit opine that, if George III had not been so pig headed, we might still all be "one big happy Kingdom". Since he was the jerk that he was, we had a messy family breakup that stayed hostile for nearly a hundred years. Queen Victoria finally healed the breach, after our Civil War, when she accepted the fact that we were here to stay, and Brits needed to get used to it and make friends. We've been pretty close since.

If Vlad aspired to be Vlad the Great, rather than Vlad the Terrible, he would take a page from Vicky's book, not George's.

 

[Ren]

I see Ukraine as a total dumpster fire.

 

[uptower]

It's a nation of 40 million people with a separate identity that pre existed the empire that swallowed it for a time. Of course Ukraine should be its own state.

Now if a majority in some regions want to secede and join Russia, Ukraine should have let them go. If they dont want to be a part so be it. But if Russia was just stirring up a minority as a pretext, that's a different story.

 

[coyote505]

It's a nation of 40 million people with a separate identity that pre existed the empire that swallowed it for a time. Of course Ukraine should be its own state.

Now if a majority in some regions want to secede and join Russia, Ukraine should have let them go. If they dont want to be a part so be it. But if Russia was just stirring up a minority as a pretext, that's a different story.

I suspect that Litwin could provide us some links to argue that Russia is a breakaway province of Ukraine! I believe Kyiv was Russia's capital before Moscow.

 

[Rumpel]

I believe Kyiv was Russia's capital before Moscow.

So it is!
Btw: in German it is Kiew.
And the Russian city of Moscow or MOCCBA is "Moskau" in German.

 

[ecofarm]

Ukrainians and Russians do not share a language or religion, they are not the same ethnic group. It's not like England and the US.

 

[Rumpel]

And Lwiw is Lemberg in both Yiddish and in good old Austro-Hungarian.
Lemberg, with a -berg like in Nurem-berg etc.

 

[ecofarm]

So Ukrainian is not a language anymore? We're gonna pretend Ukrainians have always spoke Russian?

Wow. It is happening.

 

[coyote505]

So Ukrainian is not a language anymore? We're gonna pretend Ukrainians have always spoke Russian?

Wow. It is happening.

I'm not going to pretend any such thing. They are distinct peoples. There might have been a time when they could have been politically close, but Stalin blew that big time!

 

[Kreton]

This Russian propaganda isn't convincing anyone.

Thats not true at all. They have convinced Trump and his worshippers to support Russia in this conflict and turn on their own nation.

 

[Phys251]

Thats not true at all. They have convinced Trump and his worshippers to support Russia in this conflict and turn on their own nation.

They've already been convinced of that.

 

[Tender Branson]

Austria is similar to the Ukraine:

Austria used to be „German“ for a long time (1000 years) and part of the Holy Roman Empire.

Same with Ukraine and Russia, even though it changed more often.

Still, Austria is not seen as German anymore and people here would never consider themselves German (except 5% Neo-Nazis).

80-90% of Ukraine people also don’t consider themselves Russian.

 

[ecofarm]

Austria is similar to the Ukraine:

Austria used to be „German“ for a long time (1000 years) and part of the Holy Roman Empire.

Same with Ukraine and Russia, even though it changed more often.

Still, Austria is not seen as German anymore and people here would never consider themselves German (except 5% Neo-Nazis).

80-90% of Ukraine people also don’t consider themselves Russian.

Austrians speak German. Ukrainians speak Ukrainian - not Russian.

See the difference?

 

[Tender Branson]

Austrians speak German. Ukrainians speak Ukrainian.

See the difference?

No.

Austrians don’t speak German. Austrians speak a variety of different German dialects that are often quite different than Northern German. Many words are not understood by Hamburgers or Berliners.

Ukrainian and Russian are just as similar, but also just as different as AustrianGerman and regular High German.

 

[ecofarm]

No.

Austrians don’t speak German. Austrians speak a variety of different German dialects that are often quite different than Northern German. Many words are not understood by Hamburgers or Berliners.

Ukrainian and Russian are just as similar, but also just as different as AustrianGerman and regular High German.

If Ukraine was really part of Russia before, why do they speak a different language? Are you claiming the Ukrainian language is a recent development?

It's a different ****ing language. It didn't start recently.

 

[XDU]

Austrians speak German. Ukrainians speak Ukrainian - not Russian.

See the difference?

If Ukraine was really part of Russia before, why do they speak a different language? Are you claiming the Ukrainian language is a recent development?

Unfortunately, the West can't use that definition of self-determination right now because of its abundance of multiculturalist states which do not embrace language as the definition of sovereign identity.

 

[Felis Leo]

So Ukrainian is not a language anymore? We're gonna pretend Ukrainians have always spoke Russian?

Wow. It is happening.

 

[ecofarm]

Unfortunately, the West can't use that definition of self-determination right now because of its abundance of multiculturalist states which do not embrace language as the definition of sovereign identity.

Look, this is simple. We can't claim people are Russian when they don't speak ****ing Russian.