Do you see the Ukraine as a nation of its own or as a break-away Russian province?

[Hamish Howl]

I see the Ukraine as a chew toy.

And as of about 40 minutes ago, it's a chew toy that's on fire.

Russia attacks Ukraine as defiant Putin warns US, NATO

Russian troops have launched their anticipated attack on Ukraine. President Vladimir Putin has cast aside international condemnation and sanctions, warning other countries that any attempt to interfere would lead to “consequences you have never seen.”

apnews.com

 

[maxparrish]

Language you say
Why not now talk about why the Donbass is no longer Ukrainian:

Their president they voted for 90% for Yanukovich was removed, replaced with
an interim president who 'tried to ban their language' and appointed
billionaire governors of the eastern regions without elections and then burned
alive the people of Odessa who protested. East Ukraine, at this point, got it's taste
of the new "Ukrainian democracy and freedom" and found they did not care for it.

Why contribute misleading history?

The trade union building fire was two months after the invasion of Crimea and one month after the Russian mercenary and 'separatist' invasion of the Donbas. Only a highly irrational person suffering from motivated bias could claim that is the reason for the Donbas invasion and the removal from Ukrainian jurisdiction. And, by the way, that fire was the work of extreme right-wing vengeful activists, not the government.

And prior to invasions the parliamentary move to repeal the 2012 law, and make Ukrainian the sole state (but not sole regional) language would have brought back the previous law to 2012 on languages, a law in place for 23 years. In response to protests, on March 3rd of 2014 the President Oleksandr Turchynov stated he would not sign the repeal of the 2012 law until a better solution was found and passed.

Were the Donbas purely a protest there wouldn't be either a repeal of the 2012 law or an invasion. There is only one person to blame for this pending war, V. Putin.

 

[maxparrish]

I was only going with the options of the poll in the thread opener.
ok
ok
ok
And the newly independent Ukraine also embarked, especially after the Maidan of 2014, on programs to stamp out Russian language, culture in Ukraine.

Putin is no more a liar than the western media who treat Ukraine as it has no aggrieved Russian minorities. In the western media ethnic Russians in Ukraine are either self hating Russians, plants from the Russian Federation.

I have no doubt that Russian ethnics often feel differently than Ukrainian ethnics. I also don't doubt the Ukranian parliament may have miscalculated the pushback from the repeal of a language law that was very recent, that of 2012... the pushback being one reason that the President would not sign that repeal. However, the replacement law under consideration wasn't "an attempt to stamp out Russian language or culture", it was an attempt to establish a single state language (Ukrainian) and regional minority languages for use where more than 10 percent of the population spoke it.

Identity culture being what it is, this "diminishment" of Russian compared to Ukrainian triggered Russian minorities into protest, but a month before the contrived Donbas operation the 2012 repeal was stopped by the President, pending a better bill than the one that caused all the anger.

Needless to say, what Russia's invasions have done is remove a great number of Russian speakers from the Ukraine's jurisdiction, making them an ever-greater minority with less political power. I'd like to think that was an unintended consequence of Putin's actions...but I don't think he really cares.

 

[slick]

First of all, Ukraine was not a Russian "province" nor a breakaway to it. It was one of the 15 republics all of which dissolved from the Soviet empire... they were no more breakaways than the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian empire.

Second, the Soviet Union itself was an iteration of the Russian Empire. Like all empires (e.g. Austrio-Hungarian Empire) the USSR was a conglomeration of many nationalities, speaking different languages, is a compelled association by a central authority. The nationalities are generally associated with the territory of each Republic and but for conquest started by a Tsar of "the Russians" in the dutchy of Muscovy, Ukraine would have evolved under self-rule or become subjected to other empires and powers.

Third, Ukranian nationalism dates back to at least the early 1600s, and the first Ukrainian autonomy of the Cossack Hetmanate.

Initially the Muscovite Tsar affirmed all of Kiev and the Cossacks privileges of autonomy...but that slowly eroded over time. In the 17th and 18th century is evolved from Russian "protection" from the Poles to Catherine the Great centralized control of the empire. Cossack and peasant uprisings against the Russians dwindled.

However, in the very early 19th century Ukrainian national consciousness arose, centered around their history, culture, and language. (Ukrainian language is not closely related to Russian, it being far closer to Western/Southern Slavic.). It took place soon after the Haidamaka Uprisings (also known as Koliivshchyna) rocked lands of former Cossack Hetmanate.

The Russians, as might be expected, attempted to stamp out Ukrainian language, literature, and culture. But it stayed alive. In 1917 Ukraine tried to free itself from the Soviets, and failed. In WWII the vast numbers of Soviet POW defectors than rallied to the German formation of Ukrainian brigades were again, Ukrainians.

Finally, Putin's "history" is widely recognized as absurd and a lie...possibly a lie he tells himself in order to invade Ukraine.

Double post!

 

[slick]

Why contribute misleading history?

The trade union building fire was two months after the invasion of Crimea and one month after the Russian mercenary and 'separatist' invasion of the Donbas. Only a highly irrational person suffering from motivated bias could claim that is the reason for the Donbas invasion and the removal from Ukrainian jurisdiction. And, by the way, that fire was the work of extreme right-wing vengeful activists, not the government.

And prior to invasions the parliamentary move to repeal the 2012 law, and make Ukrainian the sole state (but not sole regional) language would have brought back the previous law to 2012 on languages, a law in place for 23 years. In response to protests, on March 3rd of 2014 the President Oleksandr Turchynov stated he would not sign the repeal of the 2012 law until a better solution was found and passed.

Were the Donbas purely a protest there wouldn't be either a repeal of the 2012 law or an invasion. There is only one person to blame for this pending war, V. Putin.

'Only a highly irrational person suffering from motivated bias could claim that is the reason for the Donbas invasion'
What!!!!!!

Your contradiction is almost as silly as the ‘spelling police’ prominent years ago over looking over an actual point just to point out a spelling error or as for you, erecting a cathedral around an unimportant error involving
the sequential order in which past events occur all of which
happened during the first stage of the unrest, known as the "Russian Spring”

Furthermore the thugs from far west Ukraine likely involved in the burning of anti-Maidan protestors moved to Odessa in January & were stirring trouble even before the Kiev Maidan forced Yanukovich to flee for his life in February. That surely known to the Donbass fighters early on.

In addition that parliamentary move, why mention that. I recall I stated 'interim president 'tried to ban their language’ the key word there is that I mentioned they tried. Why second what I stated?

No need for you to get into the shrink business. You seem to have an amazing lack of grasp of what's going on inside the heads of people you've never met.

That’s all. More important things on my mind. NY finally started legal sports gambling 6 weeks ago & there are arbitrage scalps galore for me to scoop up. Very time consuming!

 

[bomberfox]

As I have said, the situation is similar to Austria & Germany.

Austrians speak mountain German dialect, often unintelligible to North Germans.

North Germans are Protestant, Austrians Catholic.

But Americans and others still consider us „Germans“.

I dunno any American that considers Austrians to be Germans.

 

[NewfieMom]

I dunno any American that considers Austrians to be Germans.

I agree about Americans, but historically the notion of uniting Austria with another, or several other, German state(s) was common. Germany was not always unified and there was a question about whether there would be a Little Germany or a Big Germany. Remember that Bismarck was originally only the chancellor of one kingdom, Prussia.

History of Yesterday: Uncovering the Events That Shaped Our World

History of Yesterday delves into the rich tapestry of our past to uncover the people, events, and cultures that have shaped the world we know today.

historyofyesterday.com

 

[Manc Skipper]

But they usually have ONE first language.
And the first language of the Ukrainian President is Russian.

The first language of my uncle was Gaelic. He learned English at school because cultural imperialism..

 

[Arkantos]

7 Russian trolls in this site then.

 

[Grand Mal]

Do you see the Ukraine as a nation of its own or as a break-away Russian province?

They didn't break away. They were a Soviet republic united in the USSR. When the USSR dismantled all the Soviet republics became separate countries. Ukraine included.

 

[NewfieMom]

The first language of my uncle was Gaelic. He learned English at school because cultural imperialism..

It is hard for me to remember since I never saw it, but my mother's first language was not English, although she spoke it flawlessly. Although her own mother had been born in the United States and educated in the public schools here, her family forced her to speak only Slovak as a child. She went to school in Connecticut not knowing a word of English.

 

[PoS]

Ukraine is its own nation, and didnt deserve this.

 

[Rumpel]

I see the Ukraine as a chew toy.

And as of about 40 minutes ago, it's a chew toy that's on fire.

Russia attacks Ukraine as defiant Putin warns US, NATO

Russian troops have launched their anticipated attack on Ukraine. President Vladimir Putin has cast aside international condemnation and sanctions, warning other countries that any attempt to interfere would lead to “consequences you have never seen.”

apnews.com

Do you really think it OK to make fun of the human misery that is unfolding there?

 

[Rumpel]

49 out of 56 now say: a nation of its own

 

[Rumpel]

50 out of 57 now say: a nation of its own!