Do Not Resuscitate Orders

[MaggieD]

DNR's. In Illinois, two are required. Most people don't know that. And the consequences of not knowing can be considerable. Maybe your state requires two as well.

1. A Standard Healthcare Power of Attorney for family to present at the hospital.
2. A special DNR order to present to paramedics when 911 is called.

Without that second one, if a loved one's heart stops beating, the paramedics will ALWAYS attempt resuscitation, no matter what you say to them as their HCPOA. It is signed by the person (or their spokesperson) and by that person's doctor.

I was interviewing a company that provides private companionship (and other services) for seniors in their home. The company representative asked me if I had that special DNR order on my mom. Right in front of her. I was flabbergasted.

I guess she couldn't know that mom has dementia and that I've taken over her healthcare decisions, but I would have expected that question to be asked privately. My answer to her was that she didn't need that information, and she could clearly see I was uncomfortable. The whole thing went right over mom's lil' head.

What are your thoughts? Should she have asked me privately?

 

[specklebang]

If you're sincere about DNRing your way off this mortal coil, just don't call 911. That's my plan in case I'm too weak to dig up my suicide kit.

No, I think she lowered her liability by asking the question in front of the person most affected. That's my humble opinion, not a criticism of you in any way.

 

[sangha]

DNR's. In Illinois, two are required. Most people don't know that. And the consequences of not knowing can be considerable. Maybe your state requires two as well.

1. A Standard Healthcare Power of Attorney for family to present at the hospital.
2. A special DNR order to present to paramedics when 911 is called.

Without that second one, if a loved one's heart stops beating, the paramedics will ALWAYS attempt resuscitation, no matter what you say to them as their HCPOA. It is signed by the person (or their spokesperson) and by that person's doctor.

I was interviewing a company that provides private companionship (and other services) for seniors in their home. The company representative asked me if I had that special DNR order on my mom. Right in front of her. I was flabbergasted.

I guess she couldn't know that mom has dementia and that I've taken over her healthcare decisions, but I would have expected that question to be asked privately. My answer to her was that she didn't need that information, and she could clearly see I was uncomfortable. The whole thing went right over mom's lil' head.

What are your thoughts? Should she have asked me privately?

Was the company rep aware of your mothers' mental state?

If so, I would say it was irresponsible.

If not, then I think Speckle made a good point

 

[zgoldsmith23]

DNR's. In Illinois, two are required. Most people don't know that. And the consequences of not knowing can be considerable. Maybe your state requires two as well.

1. A Standard Healthcare Power of Attorney for family to present at the hospital.
2. A special DNR order to present to paramedics when 911 is called.

Without that second one, if a loved one's heart stops beating, the paramedics will ALWAYS attempt resuscitation, no matter what you say to them as their HCPOA. It is signed by the person (or their spokesperson) and by that person's doctor.

I was interviewing a company that provides private companionship (and other services) for seniors in their home. The company representative asked me if I had that special DNR order on my mom. Right in front of her. I was flabbergasted.

I guess she couldn't know that mom has dementia and that I've taken over her healthcare decisions, but I would have expected that question to be asked privately. My answer to her was that she didn't need that information, and she could clearly see I was uncomfortable. The whole thing went right over mom's lil' head.

What are your thoughts? Should she have asked me privately?

No, it's your Mom's decision if she wants the DNR (given they didn't know of her condition). If they did know her condition, I guess they figured it didn't matter.

 

[Summerwind]

If you're sincere about DNRing your way off this mortal coil, just don't call 911. That's my plan in case I'm too weak to dig up my suicide kit.

No, I think she lowered her liability by asking the question in front of the person most affected. That's my humble opinion, not a criticism of you in any way.

I agree from beginning to end of what you write. Thing is regarding your first paragraph, if someone else is around and has any ability to call 911 for you and doesn't, they go to jail. Even if it's your child or spouse who is absolutely certain that you don't want 911 called, without a DNR they would be in trouble for your death. And a stranger wouldn't even know and even if you said, they would be obliged by law to call 911.
Just sayin'. Sounds great, but not fair to those who might get jailed and all the worse that comes between.

 

[Moot]

My dad was going to have an operation at the VA and a doctor asked him if wanted to be resuscitated if the operation didn't workout. He said, yes.


At least they asked instead of making that decision for him.

 

[davidtaylorjr]

DNR's. In Illinois, two are required. Most people don't know that. And the consequences of not knowing can be considerable. Maybe your state requires two as well.

1. A Standard Healthcare Power of Attorney for family to present at the hospital.
2. A special DNR order to present to paramedics when 911 is called.

Without that second one, if a loved one's heart stops beating, the paramedics will ALWAYS attempt resuscitation, no matter what you say to them as their HCPOA. It is signed by the person (or their spokesperson) and by that person's doctor.

I was interviewing a company that provides private companionship (and other services) for seniors in their home. The company representative asked me if I had that special DNR order on my mom. Right in front of her. I was flabbergasted.

I guess she couldn't know that mom has dementia and that I've taken over her healthcare decisions, but I would have expected that question to be asked privately. My answer to her was that she didn't need that information, and she could clearly see I was uncomfortable. The whole thing went right over mom's lil' head.

What are your thoughts? Should she have asked me privately?

Yes she should have asked you privately. That's ridiculous.

 

[specklebang]

I agree from beginning to end of what you write. Thing is regarding your first paragraph, if someone else is around and has any ability to call 911 for you and doesn't, they go to jail. Even if it's your child or spouse who is absolutely certain that you don't want 911 called, without a DNR they would be in trouble for your death. And a stranger wouldn't even know and even if you said, they would be obliged by law to call 911.
Just sayin'. Sounds great, but not fair to those who might get jailed and all the worse that comes between.

...and I agree with you.

The last 3 weeks of my Father's life were very painful to watch. A great man, a war hero 100% disabled in service to his country, reduced to agony and soiling himself. I stayed about 10 days with him because we were short of staff. Had he fallen unconscious, I would have called 911 to protect myself. But I would have done that very slowly. Very, very slowly. 9.................1...................1.

He died in his sleep with one of his guardians dozing next to him. I'm glad the guy dozed off because resuscitation would have really angered me.

 

[Summerwind]

...and I agree with you.

The last 3 weeks of my Father's life were very painful to watch. A great man, a war hero 100% disabled in service to his country, reduced to agony and soiling himself. I stayed about 10 days with him because we were short of staff. Had he fallen unconscious, I would have called 911 to protect myself. But I would have done that very slowly. Very, very slowly. 9.................1...................1.

He died in his sleep with one of his guardians dozing next to him. I'm glad the guy dozed off because resuscitation would have really angered me.

Excellent, but for those who may be around when you go down, better have a DNR or two. I've considered having it tatooed right across my chest, on my wrist/hand as well. Haven't done it yet though.

 

[specklebang]

Excellent, but for those who may be around when you go down, better have a DNR or two. I've considered having it tatooed right across my chest, on my wrist/hand as well. Haven't done it yet though.

I do have a DNR but I'm concerned the cats will not honor it if I collapse before 2 PM (wet food time).

 

[Aunt Spiker]

DNR's. In Illinois, two are required. Most people don't know that. And the consequences of not knowing can be considerable. Maybe your state requires two as well.

1. A Standard Healthcare Power of Attorney for family to present at the hospital.
2. A special DNR order to present to paramedics when 911 is called.

Without that second one, if a loved one's heart stops beating, the paramedics will ALWAYS attempt resuscitation, no matter what you say to them as their HCPOA. It is signed by the person (or their spokesperson) and by that person's doctor.

I was interviewing a company that provides private companionship (and other services) for seniors in their home. The company representative asked me if I had that special DNR order on my mom. Right in front of her. I was flabbergasted.

I guess she couldn't know that mom has dementia and that I've taken over her healthcare decisions, but I would have expected that question to be asked privately. My answer to her was that she didn't need that information, and she could clearly see I was uncomfortable. The whole thing went right over mom's lil' head.

What are your thoughts? Should she have asked me privately?

Well - I guess that means they didn't pass that interview with 5 shiny stars, Maggie.

It sounds like preliminary basics like "Who is responsible for your mother's healthcare decisions" should have been asked upfront - before the meeting, even.

 

[Summerwind]

I do have a DNR but I'm concerned the cats will not honor it if I collapse before 2 PM (wet food time).

Don't worry, cats have been known, or so I've heard, to eat their owners body parts if they die before feeding time. lol

 

[specklebang]

Don't worry, cats have been known, or so I've heard, to eat their owners body parts if they die before feeding time. lol

As in life, so shall I serve in death.

Speckletuna

 

[mak2]

I have heard several times the EMTs are trained to look on the refregerator for DNR orders. EMTs can transport patients for palletive care and family members almost alwasys freak out. So put the DNR orders on the fridge with a magnet.

 

[Summerwind]

I have heard several times the EMTs are trained to look on the refregerator for DNR orders. EMTs can transport patients for palletive care and family members almost alwasys freak out. So put the DNR orders on the fridge with a magnet.

Actually you should get a medic alert type bracelet. You never know that you'll be in your house when something happens.

Amazon.com: LIFETAG Do Not Resuscitate Medical ID Tags 5-pack FREE STANDARD SHIPPING: Health & Personal Care

 

[clownboy]

I respect greatly the decision you made Maggie to care for your mother, you are one fine person! However, I think the healthcare professional did the right thing in discussing this with you in front of your mother. True, you are responsible now for making those decisions, but that does not mean she should be excluded from the details of those decisions. Also gives her the chance to pipe up and say, hey I really don't want this and I'm clearer of mind than I seem. In your case that may not apply, but there are cases where medical directorship is appointed when the person is on and off in a confused state, not full time dementia.

 

[sangha]

I respect greatly the decision you made Maggie to care for your mother, you are one fine person! However, I think the healthcare professional did the right thing in discussing this with you in front of your mother. True, you are responsible now for making those decisions, but that does not mean she should be excluded from the details of those decisions. Also gives her the chance to pipe up and say, hey I really don't want this and I'm clearer of mind than I seem. In your case that may not apply, but there are cases where medical directorship is appointed when the person is on and off in a confused state, not full time dementia.

When it comes to patients with dementia, I have to disagree. A company rep is not qualified to judge a demented person's true wishes. That should be done by a medical professional who has experience dealing with such patients. Like the doctor who signed off on the DNR. If the rep has any questions about the validity of the DNR, they can call the doctor.

 

[clownboy]

When it comes to patients with dementia, I have to disagree. A company rep is not qualified to judge a demented person's true wishes. That should be done by a medical professional who has experience dealing with such patients. Like the doctor who signed off on the DNR. If the rep has any questions about the validity of the DNR, they can call the doctor.

You misunderstand my point, wasn't saying the company rep decides anything or makes any judgement whatsoever in the situation. The patient has a right to hear what is being decided in his/her stead.

 

[sangha]

You misunderstand my point, wasn't saying the company rep decides anything or makes any judgement whatsoever in the situation.

Which is why the rep shouldn't ask such questions in front of a person with dementia.

The patient has a right to hear what is being decided in his/her stead.

No, not really.

 

[Summerwind]

Which is why the rep shouldn't ask such questions in front of a person with dementia.



No, not really.

Cancel my response upon re-reading, it was an interview for a place, not a place she was currently enrolled. That being the case, it shouldn't have been asked unless and until Maggie was preparing to actually enroll her mother, not during an interview at all unless Maggie herself brought it up.

 

[sangha]

Well, I'd say that regardless of state of mind, if a person is afraid or unwilling to die, their opinion should be noted, if not honored. Sorry. Likewise a person who is willing to die, regardless of their state of mind, should be honored. The only exception I see is if a DNR was executed prior to dementia, in which case, why would the assistant even be discussing it with Maggie?

Regardless of state of mind? :doh:

 

[Summerwind]

Regardless of state of mind? :doh:

Actually yes. I do believe that. If someone's state of mind is to the point that they want to be allowed to die, who is anyone to argue with what their state of mind does to them. Contrarily if someone just wants to keep living, regardless of their state of mind, seriously, you'd just let 'em die? Again, if we're talking that the same person during "sane" moments prepared for the concept that they may not remain sane and provided either a dnr or it's alternative, then that's different. But if we are starting at neutral, yeah, reagardless of what a daughter thinks or a son or a lawyer thinks, a person's desire regarding DNR or not-DNR should be honored.

In no reference at all to Maggie, not all caregivers who have power of medical atty are good people with the patient's wishes as their own, y'know. Many see a certain cost benefit to DNRs, if nothing else.

 

[sangha]

Actually yes. I do believe that. If someone's state of mind is to the point that they want to be allowed to die, who is anyone to argue with what their state of mind does to them. Contrarily if someone just wants to keep living, regardless of their state of mind, seriously, you'd just let 'em die? Again, if we're talking that the same person during "sane" moments prepared for the concept that they may not remain sane and provided either a dnr or it's alternative, then that's different. But if we are starting at neutral, yeah, reagardless of what a daughter thinks or a son or a lawyer thinks, a person's desire regarding DNR or not-DNR should be honored.

In no reference at all to Maggie, not all caregivers who have power of medical atty are good people with the patient's wishes as their own, y'know. Many see a certain cost benefit to DNRs, if nothing else.

My point is that a person with dementia may not understand the question, or they may not even understand the answer that they give. Many people with dementia suffer from aphasia, which is "a disturbance of the comprehension and formulation of language caused by dysfunction in specific brain regions".

When a patient has aphasia, they could mean "No" but say "Yes". IOW, there's no way a demented patients answer could be useful in deciding whether or not the patients wants a DNR so why ask? All it can do is confuse or even agitate the patient causing them great mental distress.

 

[Summerwind]

My point is that a person with dementia may not understand the question, or they may not even understand the answer that they give. Many people with dementia suffer from aphasia, which is "a disturbance of the comprehension and formulation of language caused by dysfunction in specific brain regions".

When a patient has aphasia, they could mean "No" but say "Yes". IOW, there's no way a demented patients answer could be useful in deciding whether or not the patients wants a DNR so why ask? All it can do is confuse or even agitate the patient causing them great mental distress.

I understand and even know that, my grandfather suffered as did my best friend's father, so I totally realize. Then I guess I would have to amend to say that given our current society, better to err on the side of non-DNR. Again, this is assuming that no DNR was created when the person was still lucid.

Rephrasing for clarity... I guess I'm saying that if a DNR is not presented prior to losing lucidity, no one who is subsequently given power of atty should be able to initialize one. Contrarily, if one was issued, it should not be able to be revoked by a person with power of atty.

 

[clownboy]

Which is why the rep shouldn't ask such questions in front of a person with dementia.

Nonsense. Course of treatment should always be discussed in front of the actual patient whether they are the one who makes the medical decision for treatment or not.

No, not really.

Stay far away from the medical profession, I don't want someone who thinks like that anywhere near the people I love.