DO I support racism?[W:433]

[Henrin]

Re: DO I support racism?

You wouldn't understand.

The only thing I don't understand is why you think statist arguments towards rights are the same thing as natural rights arguments. lol. For example, your balancing of rights argument is made by people that think government is the origin of rights and are looking for a way to violate the peoples rights.

Without regulations against fraud, theft, externalities and such, the free market cannot operate.

Still haven't look up the term free market, have you? :lol:

 

[Master PO]

Re: DO I support racism?

Also to keep people from acting out in violent ways because they are systematically excluded from resources because of their race. In other words...exclusion over immutable characteristics piss people off. We need to be protected from that.

so your saying we need to laws, to stop people from being pissed off, because someone did not serve them?

can you tell me, why then my RIGHT. to association, and RIGHT to property are to be curtailed......because someone some cannot hold his temper.

government is to secure rights, your telling me they can be curtailed, even though no rights are violated becuase another person got mad........remember you dont have an exercisable right, when you step on my property..

 

[joko104]

Re: DO I support racism?

Also to keep people from acting out in violent ways because they are systematically excluded from resources because of their race. In other words...exclusion over immutable characteristics piss people off. We need to be protected from that.

Yes, I've already commented that in real terms I would become physically violent in the face of certain forms of commercial discrimination against my family members. In my view, when a question becomes a question of who has the "power" as to what makes rights, everyone involved then gets to use "power." If the government will not prevent a person using "economic power" to discrimination, those people discriminated against then also may use "power" - which the government also should stay out of.

That is one of the most curious ironies of "civilized" society. Someone can claim they should be able to do what they want and have the power to do so against other people - but then claim the other side of it isn't allowed to use what power they have to.

If a store put up a "whites only sign" - as a "power" they have for which the government will not intervene, then non-whites would have a right to use their "power" to destroy that store in their community for the purpose of making a space for a store they can use - and the government should equally stay out of it since this all is not then a government concern.

Historically, rights denied have been gained by violence, revolution and war - on a grand scale or individual level.

 

[Kreton]

Why not?



Why "should" there be such an exception?



Yes, I think that by now we all get the idea that you don't want to talk about the law. However, it would be nice if, instead of just saying "should" this and "should not" that, you would explain *why* we should and should not do certain things. - specifically, why we should allow businesses to practice racial discrimination.

Why? Because I don't think the government should be allowed to dictate who a person sells their goods or services to. That should be something that consumers decide with their purchasing decisions.

 

[Psychoclown]

Re: DO I support racism?

Again, guy, the moment you refuse to serve someone and tell them to leave your place of business because of their color, and they refuse to do so and you call the cops...at that moment it becomes state-enforced racism.

No, it becomes state enforced property rights. Just as if the state allows the KKK to hold a public rally, the state is not responsible for or giving endorsement to the message, merely recognizing the right the people have to express it.

And how long would it be before private businesses would have "white drinking water fountains" and "colored drinking water fountains"?

In today's society, do you honestly think this sort of thing would ever make a comeback? Regardless of its legality. The minute a business hung a "Whites Only" sign up or tried to enforce segregated drinking fountains, it would be committing suicide. The community wide protests and boycotts would come almost immediately - and deservedly so.

Maybe you look back at the days of Jim Crow, hoping to go back to those days. Most Americans don't - most Americans know better than to legally allow discrimination. You are thankfully in the ever-shrinking minority.

Nobody here is longing for the days of Jim Crow. You're just building up a strawman to tear down. People are saying that anti-discrimination laws as they pertain to private businesses are a violation of property rights.

 

[Master PO]

Re: DO I support racism?

It protects society from economic and physical harm...I gave examples. So you are just ignoring it.

There are laws supporting the protection of structures, public hygiene, public safety (like thru law enforcement). Anti-discrimination laws support the protection OF property and lives (by protecting 2nd class groups of people who would otherwise have to fight to recover their rights thru (sometimes) violence, rioting, beatings, killings, and property damage.)

No difference except that you choose to object.

how do they support protection of property and lives?

you have just violated the protection of my property, by taking away my right to association and property from me.

 

[Henrin]

Food is a necessity. So is fuel. Clothing.

So I understand your point it is that the majority can restrict the minority to only the minimal necessities of life. Correct?

Why is voluntary exchange outside your grasp? People have to agree to commence in commerce with you for commerce to commence. If you force the issue, then yes, you are violating their rights.

 

[JayDubya]

Someone not selling you fuel is not harming you, is not initiating force against you. The gas station owner chooses to sell you gas because he wants money. This is a voluntary exchange.

P.S. which is what a free market is - voluntary exchange, free of coercion.

 

[AGENT J]

Re: DO I support racism?

It protects society from economic and physical harm...I gave examples. So you are just ignoring it.

There are laws supporting the protection of structures, public hygiene, public safety (like thru law enforcement). Anti-discrimination laws support the protection OF property and lives (by protecting 2nd class groups of people who would otherwise have to fight to recover their rights thru (sometimes) violence, rioting, beatings, killings, and property damage.)

No difference except that you choose to object.

correct its simply a protection of rights but some people dont want those rights protected for others, they dont care about others rights

 

[ecofarm]

Re: DO I support racism?

how do they support protection of property and lives?

you have just violated the protection of my property, by taking away my right to association and property from me.

What kind of person thinks they can do absolutely anything they want with their property?

What is this, elementary school?

 

[Master PO]

Re: DO I support racism?

An individual's right to a free market, equal opportunity and control of externalities trumps the right to be a racist in public business.

you dont have a right to obtain those things thru a business owner.

government is to treat you equal under the law......government is not here to make you equal by law.

 

[joko104]

Re: DO I support racism?

Nobody here is longing for the days of Jim Crow. You're just building up a strawman to tear down. People are saying that anti-discrimination laws as they pertain to private businesses are a violation of property rights.

That is 100% exactly what you and other white people on this forum are advocating and giving 100% exactly the same logic. That the majority can oppress the minority economically.

This has NOTHING to do with property rights. If so, you'd be raging against zoning laws. But since your goal is to try to re-establish locations for business where you don't have to be near any black people, you focus on this.

I challenge ANY of you racial segregationists to point to any message you previously posted complaining of zoning laws in regards to "property rights?" That you can't proves exactly this is entirely, 100%, a racist agenda.

 

[ecofarm]

Re: DO I support racism?

He is using it in the following way...

So you're all for alternative definitions when they suit your purpose. Hypocrisy much?

 

[AGENT J]

1.)Someone not selling you fuel is not harming you, is not initiating force against you.
2.)The gas station owner chooses to sell you gas because he wants money.
3.) This is a voluntary exchange.
4.)P.S. which is what a free market is - voluntary exchange, free of coercion.

1.) no one said it was, another mentally retarded failed "strawman" what is harm is violating ones rights, thats the issue.
im currently not selling you fuel, yes that does not harm you. good thing thats not the issue
2.) also meaningless and not being discussed
3.) yes he volunteered and chose to run a business
4.) also meaningless

this is about violating peoples rights. but please continue to try and make it something else.

 

[ecofarm]

Re: DO I support racism?

you dont have a right to obtain those things thru a business owner.

government is to treat you equal under the law......government is not here to make you equal by law.

Government is here to ensure my individual rights, which include the right to a free and fair market, equal opportunity, and to not be unjustly discriminated against in public business.

 

[Henrin]

Re: DO I support racism?

Thanks for making my point for me :mrgreen:

Dont forget the kids dying abandoned by the side of the road in 'your system.' That's ok too....totally justifiable as long as you dont cause any 'forced servitude.'

Well, it is kind of illegal, so yeah, forced servitude is a problem.

 

[sangha]

Why? Because I don't think the government should be allowed to dictate who a person sells their goods or services

"I don't think the govt should be allowed to do so" is not an explanation for why you think the govt should not be allowed to do so.

I understand that you do not think the govt should be able to do so. What I don't understand, because you haven't explained it, is *why* you do not think the govt should be able to do so.

If you could demonstrate some benefit that people gain from allowing businesses to practice racial discrimination, I would better understand why someone would want to allow such discrimination.

 

[Kreton]

Re: DO I support racism?

That is 100% exactly what you and other white people on this forum are advocating and giving 100% exactly the same logic. That the majority can oppress the minority economically.

This has NOTHING to do with property rights. If so, you'd be raging against zoning laws. But since your goal is to try to re-establish locations for business where you don't have to be near any black people, you focus on this.

I challenge ANY of you racial segregationists to point to any message you previously posted complaining of zoning laws in regards to "property rights?" That you can't proves exactly this is entirely, 100%, a racist agenda.

You seem to have a problem with understanding what people actually are saying vs what you want them to be saying. No one has said any of this, yet you are seeing it. That makes conversing impossible.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

Re: DO I support racism?

you dont have a right to obtain those things thru a business owner.

government is to treat you equal under the law......government is not here to make you equal by law.

So what if people don't treat other people equally?

 

[joko104]

Someone not selling you fuel is not harming you, is not initiating force against you. The gas station owner chooses to sell you gas because he wants money. This is a voluntary exchange.

P.S. which is what a free market is - voluntary exchange, free of coercion.

Refusing to sell someone gasoline could cause that person's - and everyone in the vehicle - death. Minimally, it harms the person economically having to drive elsewhere and takes the person's time, which also is a value to a person.

 

[Master PO]

Re: DO I support racism?

What kind of person thinks they can do absolutely anything they want with their property?

What is this, elementary school?

did not say that.......i said you have property rights.....when your rights violate health and safety, or the rights of other people...then your outside of the law.

if you do not do these things your inside the law.


school for you...yes.

 

[Henrin]

Re: DO I support racism?

So you're all for alternative definitions when they suit your purpose. Hypocrisy much?

Do you disagree with the definition for some reason?

 

[joko104]

A plus of this thread is to we know who the angry white racist men on the forum are.

 

[ecofarm]

Re: DO I support racism?

Do you disagree with the definition for some reason?

It's too limited, and it is so in order to push a BS agenda. You know, just like your definition of racism.

 

[Gipper]

Re: DO I support racism?

And people have a right to a free and fair market, equal opportunity and control of externalities (economic and social).

Those rights outweigh the right to be a racist in public business.

You know that externalities are often positive, right?

Seriously, stop trying to make economic arguments.