Do entitlements help the poor get out of poverty?

[U.S. Socialist.]

Frankly Im not overly concerned THAT people have a quality of life in this country...only that those that are willing to get off their ass have the OPPORTUNITY to succeed. those that are satisfied living in moms basement or taking government handouts should reap precisely what they sow.

Typical right-wing Ayn Rand inspired philosophy "I've got mine so **** everyone else."

 

[Helix]

Frankly Im not overly concerned THAT people have a quality of life in this country...only that those that are willing to get off their ass have the OPPORTUNITY to succeed. those that are satisfied living in moms basement or taking government handouts should reap precisely what they sow.

so where should they all work?

 

[OpportunityCost]

Job training...and by job training I mean trades or training with a specific job in mind.
Imaging Technology, Heating and AC, OTR trucking, plumbing, electrician, etc etc.

Education is the only entitlement I support, so long as the person recieving it takes it seriously and gets a job from it. We need to see more of it.

 

[imagep]

A study I posted the other night demonstrated that even in those socialist nations the richest taxpayers share of the income tax is not much different than their share of the income-the USA has the largest gap between the share of the income the top one percent receives versus their share of the income tax burden (22% vs 39%) in other words, the poor and the middle class pay a far higher share of the income tax burden in europe than they do here

That may be. It sounds like a tradeoff to me. Taxes for universal healthcare, and much better worker benefits such as more paid time off.

 

[VanceMack]

Typical right-wing Ayn Rand inspired philosophy "I've got mine so **** everyone else."

Oh no...I have mine, I encourage you and everyone else to get yours. I'll even gladly participate in HELPING you, provided you put in the work. But...if not? Indeed...**** everyone else.

 

[VanceMack]

so where should they all work?

Well lets start with competing with the illegals for jobs. They manage to come here with nothing and find work. Amazing...right? Lets follow up with telling school kids engage in your future cuz no one is going to pamper your asses. Oh...there are jobs to be had. Millions come here every year to get them.

 

[zimmer]

A study I posted the other night demonstrated that even in those socialist nations the richest taxpayers share of the income tax is not much different than their share of the income-the USA has the largest gap between the share of the income the top one percent receives versus their share of the income tax burden (22% vs 39%) in other words, the poor and the middle class pay a far higher share of the income tax burden in europe than they do here

Some Swedish economists did a study of living standards between US states vs. EU countries, and they found the top EU countries were in the bottom 5 of US states. Not surprising if you've lived in the EU. Upward mobility is tougher in the EU.

One tidbit: When you're paying 1.52 Euros per liter of gas (almost $9.00 per gallon), it drives up all prices and makes life generally more difficult.

http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/pdf/9175665646.pdf

.

 

[U.S. Socialist.]

Well lets start with competing with the illegals for jobs. They manage to come here with nothing and find work. Amazing...right? Lets follow up with telling school kids engage in your future cuz no one is going to pamper your asses. Oh...there are jobs to be had. Millions come here every year to get them.

You realize that to compete with illegal immigrants American workers would have to be willing to accept pay cuts. Most of the jobs done by illegal immigrants are low pay no benefit service jobs such as lawn keeping and things of that nature which hardly help at at all if you have a family to raise.

 

[VanceMack]

You realize that to compete with illegal immigrants American workers would have to be willing to accept pay cuts. Most of the jobs done by illegal immigrants are low pay no benefit service jobs such as lawn keeping and things of that nature which hardly help at at all if you have a family to raise.

Unemployed people have to take 'pay' cuts? Nah...we should just keep the brown slave labor here, working that lower wage job that no American would ever bring themselves to do...and If you have a family your ass out to be out there willing to empty portapottys by hand if thats what it takes to provide for them.

 

[U.S. Socialist.]

Unemployed people have to take 'pay' cuts? Nah...we should just keep the brown slave labor here, working that lower wage job that no American would ever bring themselves to do...and If you have a family your ass out to be out there willing to empty portapottys by hand if thats what it takes to provide for them.

I love how you don't complain about corporate well-fare. Especially when it was Wall Street and other corporations that helped ruin our economy. Oh, and as for the illegal immigrant issue I support the Dream Act.

 

[imagep]

Low income entitlement programs create all sorts of incentives to appear to be poor.
The poverty numbers listed are misleading.

thats very true. A few years ago I purchased a business that had several "cash under the table" employees. At one point when I was particularly frustrated with an employee who refused to come to work (she had been paid a flat $400 cash a week regardless of how much or little she worked), I told her that I was tired of paying her taxes for her (I had to pay myself more in my paycheck so that I could pay her in cash) and I told her that she would have to start clocking in and I would be withholding taxes and reporting her as an employee. She begged me not to do that because it would prevent her from recieving various forms of welfare.

I later found out that she wasn't coming to work for me because she was doing cash job for one of my competitors also.

the $400 a week cash wasn't a fortune, but it was equivilent to something like $500 in regular salary, then when you add to that whatever the other company was paying her, she had to be making well $35-50k/year. Her husband had a similar "job". Together they had work income that likely exceeded $70k/yr at a normal job. Yet they were on welfare, and most likely on the government list of poor people.

I never understood what they did with their money. they rented a crappy single wide trailer, they looked poor, had one car between them (which was always a good excuse for not coming to work). I assume that they spent it all on drugs, she supposedly had terrible migrane headaches (another excuse for not coming to work) and had to take some very expense drugs for that. He also took loads of painkillers for his bad back. Between them they had more ailments than you could find in a typical middle size hospital.

 

[imagep]

jeebus christ, not another one of those "rich people are just lucky" hacks

Count me in on that list also. It's just my personal experiance that most every "rich" person that I know is rich due to inheritance or theft of some sort.

One guy who started his business at the same time I started mine actually got "rich" due to stealing his dads customers (not illegal, but certainly not something I would consider to be ethical), then after nearly 20 years of not speaking to his dad, dad died and left the business to the son (his sister got everything else).

 

[Helix]

Well lets start with competing with the illegals for jobs. They manage to come here with nothing and find work. Amazing...right? Lets follow up with telling school kids engage in your future cuz no one is going to pamper your asses. Oh...there are jobs to be had. Millions come here every year to get them.

illegal immigrants get entitlements, as well. and in many cases, free health care.

 

[zimmer]

You realize that to compete with illegal immigrants American workers would have to be willing to accept pay cuts. Most of the jobs done by illegal immigrants are low pay no benefit service jobs such as lawn keeping and things of that nature which hardly help at at all if you have a family to raise.

Students used to build houses, do landscaping and construction jobs to make money, but illegals tanked that for many of them. Illegals have no business in the country, and it's asinine we pay for them.

A lot of those jobs are entry level jobs, like working at McD's.

US wages are falsely inflated due to idiocy like the minimum wage, and forcing people to join unions. It costs people jobs. The black market is a corrective tool, and the more oppressive the government, the more likely the black market will grow.

.

 

[imagep]

Is social spending intended to reduce poverty, or is it intended to make poverty more liveable?

Thats what I was wondering.

If it is just to make poverty more livable, then it doesn't actually raise people out of poverty. Impoverished people would still be impoverished, just a little less so. If it was intended to bring their standard of living above the poverty line, then they really arn't impoverished then are the?

And outside of public education or possibly socialized health care or health insurance, I can't think of a single welfare program that would ever perminately raise someone out of poverty. There's just no mechansim to do so. Of course we don't typically thing of public education or socialied health care as "welfare" because everyone qualifies for it - just like our socialized roads and socialized military and police and courts and jails.

 

[toriann24]

A certain perspective:

I am a diabetic, a medical condition that requires prescription drugs and regular doters visits to control and maintain my health. Until I turned 19 I was covered under my mothers health insurance, so I could afford my medication. After I turned 19, that insurance was gone.

I was working full time while attending school. But of course, I only made minimum wage. Without health insurance my medications were about 85% of my total income. Obviously, I couldn't afford them AND the rest of my cost of living expenses..

So, I go down to my local Medicaid office, hoping they would have some sort of plan or program to help me get the medications I needed to live.

The woman working behind the counter asked me if I was pregnant. I told her no. She asked me if I had a job, I told her yes.

She proceeded to tell me she couldn't help me. She said if I quit my job or became pregnant, then I could possibly qualify for the assistance programs available.

Well, neither one of those things were plausible to me. I needed my job and had no desire to begin a family at 19.

What this says to me is that our assistance programs are not designed to help people who are trying to help themselves. I can't get help with my medical needs because I have a job. However, they don't seem to care that 40 hours a week at minimum wage isn't going to cut it.

Other programs designed to help get people out of poverty stay intact only if the person doesn't have a job. As soon as they get one no matter how miniscule the wages are or ridiculous to assume they can support themselves solely on those wages is, the government cuts them off and wishes them the best of luck.

So, you wonder why people stop trying. They realize that these assistance programs act as a kind of trap, you stay in them to survive.

Come up with a way to stop this cycle, and these programs might actually work to get people OUT of poverty instead of keeping them in.

Just a thought.

 

[imagep]

do entitlements help the poor get out of poverty? entitlements are mostly geared to keep the poor from starving or falling deeper into poverty, so you've asked the wrong question.

would cutting off entitlements help the poor get out of poverty? certainly not.

There are a lot of people who are willing to adjust their lifestyle to whatever level of income that they can get without having to work. I once had an employee who had a roommate who recieved partial disability. The roommate lived on $400/mth which mostly went to paying his portion of the rent and utilities. The guy litterally ate the food that my employee provided plus whatever he could could bum off of whoever he could bum off of.

Now if he didn't have that $400k/mth, I assume that he would either be homeless and starving, or he would go out and get himself a job (he was very capable of working despite the partial disability).

If we didn't have entitlements, many poor people would choose to get a job. They may still be poor depending on what type of job they got, but at least they would be productive. those who didn't choose to get a job, well I hate to sound cruel, but I could care less if they ate or had a home.

 

[TurtleDude]

I guess you could say the same thing for greed and avarice.

yeah, the entitlement society has increased that as well. people on the dole now think they are entitled to the wealth of others

 

[U.S. Socialist.]

yeah, the entitlement society has increased that as well. people on the dole now think they are entitled to the wealth of others

Yes and capitalism doesn't at all encourage greed or avarice does it?

 

[Helix]

If we didn't have entitlements, many poor people would choose to get a job.

where, and doing what, exactly? there are plenty of people desperate for work who can't find it.

 

[imagep]

Typical right-wing Ayn Rand inspired philosophy "I've got mine so **** everyone else."

No, its "I EARNED mine so *** slackers who havent earned jack".

 

[AdamT]

There are a lot of people who are willing to adjust their lifestyle to whatever level of income that they can get without having to work. I once had an employee who had a roommate who recieved partial disability. The roommate lived on $400/mth which mostly went to paying his portion of the rent and utilities. The guy litterally ate the food that my employee provided plus whatever he could could bum off of whoever he could bum off of.

Now if he didn't have that $400k/mth, I assume that he would either be homeless and starving, or he would go out and get himself a job (he was very capable of working despite the partial disability).

If we didn't have entitlements, many poor people would choose to get a job. They may still be poor depending on what type of job they got, but at least they would be productive. those who didn't choose to get a job, well I hate to sound cruel, but I could care less if they ate or had a home.

True, there would be no welfare fraud if we didn't have welfare. That's pretty straightforward. Of course there would also be no safety not for people who are legitimately down on their luck and need assistance to get back on their feet. I think that a civilized society must put up with a degree of abuse in order to serve the truly needy. You don't throw a room full of people in jail because you know that one of them pinched a necklace.

 

[Your Star]

It depends on the person.

 

[AdamT]

No, its "I EARNED mine so *** slackers who havent earned jack".

Hmm, so what should be do about the people who didn't EARN theirs, but just got it by virtue of having a rich daddy?

 

[imagep]

where, and doing what, exactly? there are plenty of people desperate for work who can't find it.

Due to our current economy, yes you have a point. But in nomal times, there are plenty of poor people who simply prefer to live off of Uncle Sam that to work.