Do entitlements help the poor get out of poverty?

[OscarB63]

It's not a question of working or not working. It's a question of some jobs being compensated better than others, and the disparity isn't always rational. Everyone can't be a doctor or a lawyer or a hedge fund manager. Society also requires welders and janitors and teachers. Is a mathemetician who works on Wall Street more valuable than a mathemetician who does pure research? Is he smarter? Does he perform a more useful function?

is he smarter than the greeter at walmart? or the guy who salts your fries at Mickey D's? or the guy who cleans the toilets at the mall?

 

[AdamT]

is he smarter than the greeter at walmart? or the guy who salts your fries at Mickey D's? or the guy who cleans the toilets at the mall?

He probably is, but not necessarily. I supervised a bunch of parking garages in DC many years ago. I had one guy punching tickets in a booth who was a heart surgeon in his home country. He was a political refugee. Personally I'd like to see the guy salting fries swap salaries with the guy who made a king's ransom shuffling around bad mortgages. At least the fry salter didn't wreck the economy.

 

[VanceMack]

He probably is, but not necessarily. I supervised a bunch of parking garages in DC many years ago. I had one guy punching tickets in a booth who was a heart surgeon in his home country. He was a political refugee. Personally I'd like to see the guy salting fries swap salaries with the guy who made a king's ransom shuffling around bad mortgages. At least the fry salter didn't wreck the economy.

Got a great idea for you. Become a business owner. Invest in your own capital, your own hard work. Break your ass making the business successful. then, hire a gardener and pay him equal to what you have put into it. Share the profits uqually with all your employees, regardless of whether or not they are a security guard or an accountant or an investment broker.

Oh lord...I loves me some socialists...equality for all. Easy to say when you still live in moms basement and someone else is paying all your bills.

 

[OscarB63]

Oh lord...I loves me some socialists...equality for all. Easy to say when you still live in moms basement and someone else is paying all your bills.

socialist wet dream: equality of outcome regardless of effort

 

[VanceMack]

socialist wet dream: equality of outcome regardless of effort

Those Utopian societies have always done so well...

 

[OscarB63]

Those Utopian societies have always done so well...

breeding grounds for mediocrity. why should I bust my ass to excell, when my reward will be to have it taken from me to give to some guy who sat on his?

 

[VanceMack]

breeding grounds for mediocrity. why should I bust my ass to excell, when my reward will be to have it taken from me to give to some guy who sat on his?

Its funny that is not more evident and obvious to people considering how absolutely worthless many of todays generation of teens and 20 somethings are.

Here is the sad part. I make no bones about being pretty hard on people. I BELIEVE strongly in hand-up social programs conducted on a state level that enable people to achieve and succeed. My problem is with the 'entitled' and handout set that think the world is 'fair' and when I read some of the comments like society 'owes' everyone a living salary regardless of their effort...it makes me want to puke. On them. Good lord...where they even get such an idea is beyond me. Beneath me. And the sad part...the TRULY sad part is that their ideas ENSURE those people will remain crippled and dependent on others...and they find that not only acceptable but DESIRABLE.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Just saw on tv that the poverty level in 1965 was 14.3%. Today's poverty level is 14%. So, after trillions of dollars spent on entitlements, they don't help the poor get out of poverty. All they do is maintain the poor under the Democrat's wings during elections. Democrats don't care about u, they just use it as a gimmick for your vote.

Low income entitlement programs create all sorts of incentives to appear to be poor.
The poverty numbers listed are misleading.

 

[AdamT]

Got a great idea for you. Become a business owner. Invest in your own capital, your own hard work. Break your ass making the business successful. then, hire a gardener and pay him equal to what you have put into it. Share the profits uqually with all your employees, regardless of whether or not they are a security guard or an accountant or an investment broker.

Oh lord...I loves me some socialists...equality for all. Easy to say when you still live in moms basement and someone else is paying all your bills.

Perhaps you should only read what's written rather than read into everything your partisan lunacy?

As it happens I do run my own business. I'm not suggesting that everyone should make the same salary. I'm simply pointing out that salary isn't always commensurate with ability, or hard work, or intelligence, so perhaps people shouldn't be so impressed with themselves if they do well, or so dismissive of others if they make less. For every hard working, super smart person who struck it rich, I would guess that there are a thousand equally hard working, super smart people who just did okay. Most of the very successful people I know are fully aware of the role of luck in their success.

 

[OscarB63]

Perhaps you should only read what's written rather than read into everything your partisan lunacy?

As it happens I do run my own business. I'm not suggesting that everyone should make the same salary. I'm simply pointing out that salary isn't always commensurate with ability, or hard work, or intelligence, so perhaps people shouldn't be so impressed with themselves if they do well, or so dismissive of others if they make less. For every hard working, super smart person who struck it rich, I would guess that there are a thousand equally hard working, super smart people who just did okay. Most of the very successful people I know are fully aware of the role of luck in their success.

jeebus christ, not another one of those "rich people are just lucky" hacks

 

[AdamT]

jeebus christ, not another one of those "rich people are just lucky" hacks

No, luck alone isn't enough. Usually, in order to become *very* rich, you have to be smart, hard working, AND lucky. But it's true that you could say, as a matter of pure probability, there will be x number of rich people regardless. Perhaps you should pick up one of the books by Nassim Nicholas Taleb to gain a better understanding. I'd recommend, "Fooled by Randomness" as a good starting point.

 

[OscarB63]

No, luck alone isn't enough. Usually, in order to become *very* rich, you have to be smart, hard working, AND lucky. But it's true that you could say, as a matter of pure probability, there will be x number of rich people regardless. Perhaps you should pick up one of the books by Nassim Nicholas Taleb to gain a better understanding. I'd recommend, "Fooled by Randomness" as a good starting point.

a smart, hardworking man can often times generate his own "luck". a dumbass has to rely on chance

 

[U.S. Socialist.]

Those Utopian societies have always done so well...

Look at the stats I posted. These "utopian" societies you seem to hate are doing better than us when it comes to unemployment and poverty and everyone I mentioned has a stronger social-safety net than we do.

 

[AdamT]

a smart, hardworking man can often times generate his own "luck". a dumbass has to rely on chance

Perhaps that's true in your conservative utopian dream, but in the real world we are all affected by luck. Hard work and intelligence can help to blunt the impact of bad luck and it can help turn good luck into a fortune. btw, by "luck" I simply mean that we are all affected by things that are beyond our control.

 

[VanceMack]

Perhaps you should only read what's written rather than read into everything your partisan lunacy?

As it happens I do run my own business. I'm not suggesting that everyone should make the same salary. I'm simply pointing out that salary isn't always commensurate with ability, or hard work, or intelligence, so perhaps people shouldn't be so impressed with themselves if they do well, or so dismissive of others if they make less. For every hard working, super smart person who struck it rich, I would guess that there are a thousand equally hard working, super smart people who just did okay. Most of the very successful people I know are fully aware of the role of luck in their success.

OK...a paper route can be considered a 'business' I suppose...

JK

Salary isnt commensurate with ability. Life isnt fair. Thats reality.

 

[VanceMack]

Look at the stats I posted. These "utopian" societies you seem to hate are doing better than us when it comes to unemployment and poverty and everyone I mentioned has a stronger social-safety net than we do.

You are taking one plus green and getting moonrocks. "Unemployment" rates in Europe do not reflect the actual unemployed.

Employment rates in 2005 (people between 16 and 64 actually working and paying taxes)

Denmark : 75.9%
Netherlands : 73.2%
Sweden : 72.5%
UK : 71.7%
Austria : 68.6%
Cyprus : 68.5%
Finland : 68.4%
Ireland : 67.6%
Portugal : 67.5%
Slovenia : 66%
Germany : 65.4%
Czech Republic : 64.8%
Estonia : 64.4%
Luxembourg : 63.6%
Latvia : 63.3%
Spain : 63.3%
France : 63.1%
Lithuania : 62.6%
Belgium : 61.1%
Greece : 60.1%
Slovakia : 57.7%
Italy : 57.6%
Romania : 57.6%
Hungary : 56.9%
Bulgaria : 55.8%
Malta : 53.9%
Poland : 52.8%
-----------------------
Iceland : 83.8% (!)
Norway : 74.8%
Switzerland : 77.2%
Croatia : 55%
Turkey : 46% (!)
USA : 71.2% (in 2004)
Japan : 68.7% (in 2004)

 

[mpg]

Is social spending intended to reduce poverty, or is it intended to make poverty more liveable?

 

[U.S. Socialist.]

You are taking one plus green and getting moonrocks. "Unemployment" rates in Europe do not reflect the actual unemployed.

Employment rates in 2005 (people between 16 and 64 actually working and paying taxes)

Denmark : 75.9%
Netherlands : 73.2%
Sweden : 72.5%
UK : 71.7%
Austria : 68.6%
Cyprus : 68.5%
Finland : 68.4%
Ireland : 67.6%
Portugal : 67.5%
Slovenia : 66%
Germany : 65.4%
Czech Republic : 64.8%
Estonia : 64.4%
Luxembourg : 63.6%
Latvia : 63.3%
Spain : 63.3%
France : 63.1%
Lithuania : 62.6%
Belgium : 61.1%
Greece : 60.1%
Slovakia : 57.7%
Italy : 57.6%
Romania : 57.6%
Hungary : 56.9%
Bulgaria : 55.8%
Malta : 53.9%
Poland : 52.8%
-----------------------
Iceland : 83.8% (!)
Norway : 74.8%
Switzerland : 77.2%
Croatia : 55%
Turkey : 46% (!)
USA : 71.2% (in 2004)
Japan : 68.7% (in 2004)

The U.S. isn't doing much better and is worse than some of those countries by your own figures. Also let's look at the standard of living in the countries. Using the quality of life index in there are 12 countries that rate higher than the U.S. as of 2005. They are in order from 1-12: Ireland,Switzerland,Norway,Luxembourg,Sweden, Australia, Iceland,Italy,Denmark,Spain,Singapore,Finland. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-life_index)

 

[OscarB63]

The U.S. isn't doing much better and is worse than some of those countries by your own figures.

anyone care to guess what most of the countries that are doing better than the US all have in common?

Iceland
Norway
Switzerland
Denmark
Netherlands
Sweden

 

[U.S. Socialist.]

anyone care to guess what most of the countries that are doing better than the US all have in common?

Iceland
Norway
Switzerland
Denmark
Netherlands
Sweden

Based on what I hear from the right those are socialist liberal hell-holes. So I'm assuming it has something to do with that?

 

[OscarB63]

Based on what I hear from the right those are socialist liberal hell-holes. So I'm assuming it has something to do with that?

nah, they all have a much more homogeneous population than the US.

 

[AdamT]

nah, they all have a much more homogeneous population than the US.

Ah, the inevitable "homogeneous population" argument. :lol:

FWIW, Germany has managed to virtually absorb a whole 'nother country that grew up behind the Iron Curtain and is still an economic powerhouse. With increasing immigration, the nordic countries are becoming less homogeneous every day.

 

[imagep]

Oh this argument I've heard it so many times. You think people choose to be poor? Not everyone can afford to college. Not everyone has the opportunity or desire to go to college Those people have a right to a good job and good life. There is a terrible rescission that has made people lose their job. Oh and I've seen poor people who work 2 jobs and are just barely able to get by, so don't dare use that "poor people are lazy" argument with me.

Meanwhile the vaunted "job creators" are busy creating jobs in China, because we sign free trade agreements with them. I swear this people choose to be poor stuff really angers me. The fact that you have no compassion for people is sick.

Education is one of the few things that could be lumped into the entitlement category that I would support. It is an equalizer.

Now you suggested that "not everyone can afford to college". Thats flat out no ifs ands or buts wrong. I went to college without an penny of support from my parents. I went on scholarships, loans, jobs, and a stint in an army reserve unit. Anyone can do what I did, assuming at least that they are of sound mind and body.

Sometimes people of the far left confuse "compassion" with "enabling".

 

[Helix]

do entitlements help the poor get out of poverty? entitlements are mostly geared to keep the poor from starving or falling deeper into poverty, so you've asked the wrong question.

would cutting off entitlements help the poor get out of poverty? certainly not.

 

[VanceMack]

The U.S. isn't doing much better and is worse than some of those countries by your own figures. Also let's look at the standard of living in the countries. Using the quality of life index in there are 12 countries that rate higher than the U.S. as of 2005. They are in order from 1-12: Ireland,Switzerland,Norway,Luxembourg,Sweden, Australia, Iceland,Italy,Denmark,Spain,Singapore,Finland. (Quality-of-life index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Frankly Im not overly concerned THAT people have a quality of life in this country...only that those that are willing to get off their ass have the OPPORTUNITY to succeed. those that are satisfied living in moms basement or taking government handouts should reap precisely what they sow.