Do entitlements help the poor get out of poverty?

[AdamT]

its pretty much a given anything the government subsidizes increases. we have subsidized sloth and dependence and it has increased

I guess you could say the same thing for greed and avarice.

 

[VanceMack]

What the hell is an 'entitlement'? Its funny how when we talk about rich brats we speak with derision at their sense of 'entitlement' because they get mommy or daddy's wealth without ever having worked to earn it...yet...when we talk about the federal government handout programs they are somehow 'good' things.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

one of the reasons why Obama won was the huge number of first time black voters
it caused one of my friends to lose in Ohio as these new voters voted dem across the board
he won his seat back when the hordes of new obama voters didn't show up in 2010-he crushed the guy who took his job

If the numbers from 2008 that I provided up thread are anomalous and are weighted more heavily toward low income people--is that what you were implying?--then in other years, the disparity among who votes must favor those with greater incomes even more.

At first glance, the numbers seem to show that appealing to low income people is at least a less than optimal strategy. Not only do they not have as much money to donate, they are less likely to vote in the election than their more affluent countrymen by a significant margin.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

It helps them survive. Which is fine by me.

 

[U.S. Socialist.]

It helps them survive. Which is fine by me.

It does do that, but that isn't enough. Mere survival isn't a life its just an existence. We need a much stronger social-safety net at least as strong as the one in Norway to provide them with a decent standard of living even when they can't find work. A few of the things I suggest though this is not at all a full list but merely the least we need to do: Universal health care for all,free university education for all,a living wage for all, a much stronger well-fare program so that the poor can live decent lives.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

It does do that, but that isn't enough. Mere survival isn't a life its just an existence. We need a much stronger social-safety net at least as strong as the one in Norway to provide them with a decent standard of living even when they can't find work. A few of the things I suggest though this is not at all a full list but merely the least we need to do: Universal health care for all,free university education for all,a living wage for all, a much stronger well-fare program so that the poor can live decent lives.

I agree 100%

 

[305rob305]

It does do that, but that isn't enough. Mere survival isn't a life its just an existence. We need a much stronger social-safety net at least as strong as the one in Norway to provide them with a decent standard of living even when they can't find work. A few of the things I suggest though this is not at all a full list but merely the least we need to do: Universal health care for all,free university education for all,a living wage for all, a much stronger well-fare program so that the poor can live decent lives.

Do you think is fair that some Americans under many obstacles and hardships go to school to get educated and become something in life but many of other americans take the lazy way out and tries to survive with free handouts? Just yesterday I saw on tv a lady with three kids who graduated and jade a career. We need to recognize that. This country is good to those that do something but if u are a lazy person that doesn't care about your own well being, then our citizens shouldn't have to be forced to pay taxes for those that are lazy. I know for sure that we have people who are in need because of theory health and other things BUT we have millions of people cheating the system. Instead of giving put more when our country in bankrupt, we should investigate and single those millions of people that are cheating. That will save lots of $

 

[OscarB63]

Not everyone can afford to college.

bull****. I worked 60+ hours a week in order to afford college. maybe your statement should read, not everyone has the motivation to do what is needed to afford college.

Not everyone has the opportunity

bull****, everyone has the opportunity, unless they are retarded or a HS drop out.

or desire to go to college

then that is their ****ing choice (ie they choose to be poor)

Those people have a right to a good job and good life.

wrongo boyo. they have a right to life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness. if they are too stupid or lazy to pursue it...they don't have a right to ****.

Oh and I've seen poor people who work 2 jobs and are just barely able to get by, .....

yeah and those are usually 2 minimum wage jobs because that is all they can get because they chose not to go to college or learn a skill/trade

Meanwhile the vaunted "job creators" are busy creating jobs in China, because we sign free trade agreements with them.

wrongo again. it's because they don't have to pay UNSKILLED chinese workers $10-$15 an hour to do a job a chimpanzee could learn.

 

[OscarB63]

It does do that, but that isn't enough. Mere survival isn't a life its just an existence. We need a much stronger social-safety net at least as strong as the one in Norway to provide them with a decent standard of living even when they can't find work. A few of the things I suggest though this is not at all a full list but merely the least we need to do: Universal health care for all,free university education for all,a living wage for all, a much stronger well-fare program so that the poor can live decent lives.

yeah, working for a living is for suckers. let's just all suck off the govt teat. but wait....if everyone does that...who will pay for all of our free goodies... :ssst:

 

[Ockham]

Just saw on tv that the poverty level in 1965 was 14.3%. Today's poverty level is 14%. So, after trillions of dollars spent on entitlements, they don't help the poor get out of poverty. All they do is maintain the poor under the Democrat's wings during elections. Democrats don't care about u, they just use it as a gimmick for your vote.

In general I would agree with that opinion. Entitlements in this case meaning, food stamps, unemployment, welfare, etc... were and are only meant as a short term hand out, to get folks over the roughest times until they can pull themselves back into the work force, get their lives straightened out, or whatever. In some cases what it's turned out to be is a crutch, where individuals are gaming the systems and living off those entitlements or, are switching on and off so as to meet the requirements but really have been living off the system for years and longer. I think we all know someone who's gaming the system - I've spoken of my cousin's wife a few times who's been on unemployment now I guess for years (3 or 4 maybe? Lost track) but she basically has found out that the government will pay her as much or better in some cases than if she actually worked - therefore she takes jobs with approximately the same amount of pay so she doesn't lose benefits and then works it out so that she doesn't work too long and can then stay unemployed and get paid. She also uses foodstamps and get's assistance through the local church. However she and her sister save up this money and go on European vacations and shop.

 

[VanceMack]

yeah, working for a living is for suckers. let's just all suck off the govt teat. but wait....if everyone does that...who will pay for all of our free goodies... :ssst:

C S lewis wrote about this in 1943. "We remove the organ and demand function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful." Prophetic.

 

[U.S. Socialist.]

Expain someththing to me. If entitlement progams cause people to be lazy than why do the countries with a stronger safety-net all have less unemployment and poverty than us?

Let's look a few stats. Keep in mind not all of these nations are actual social-democracies,but they all have stronger social-safety nets than us. The UK is likely the closest to us in terms of the size of the safety net.

U.S: Unemployment: 9.8%. Poverty rate: 14.3%
Germany: Unemployment: 6.8%. Poverty rate: 11
Sweden: Unemployment: 7.9% Poverty rate: N/A
Norway: Unemployment: 3.6% Poverty rate: N/A
Canada: Unemployment:7.4% Poverty rate:10.8%
Iceland: Unemployment rate: 7.1% Poverty rate: 10%.
Denmark: Unemployment:4.1% Poverty rate: N/A
UK: Unemployment rate 7.6% Poverty rate:14%

 

[305rob305]

In general I would agree with that opinion. Entitlements in this case meaning, food stamps, unemployment, welfare, etc... were and are only meant as a short term hand out, to get folks over the roughest times until they can pull themselves back into the work force, get their lives straightened out, or whatever. In some cases what it's turned out to be is a crutch, where individuals are gaming the systems and living off those entitlements or, are switching on and off so as to meet the requirements but really have been living off the system for years and longer. I think we all know someone who's gaming the system - I've spoken of my cousin's wife a few times who's been on unemployment now I guess for years (3 or 4 maybe? Lost track) but she basically has found out that the government will pay her as much or better in some cases than if she actually worked - therefore she takes jobs with approximately the same amount of pay so she doesn't lose benefits and then works it out so that she doesn't work too long and can then stay unemployed and get paid. She also uses foodstamps and get's assistance through the local church. However she and her sister save up this money and go on European vacations and shop.

Exactly, amen

 

[Mach]

. For the poor to be free capitalism must be abolished

rofl.
To free people, we need to remove their freedom to own their own means of earning an income. The sun is also a big purple triangle.

 

[VanceMack]

I love how all you people who are argue again the social-democracies of Europe and say people who want them are lazy ignore the fact that they have much lower unemployment than here. So how is it that if no one works in social-democracies, they have more people working per their population than we do? Answer me that, until you do your argument are pointless.

Try again...see if you can actually structure the sentence in a manner that is coherent.

The US has 9% unemployment, but that only counts current state unemployed...it doesnt count those that dont file claims, those who have exhausted benefits, or those that never bothered to work. Actual unemployment is significantly higher.

England is no peach. "Almost 1.5 million people in Britain have never done a day’s work in their lives, official figures reveal. The total includes around 800,000 aged between 25 and 64 who have never had a job of any kind. A further 600,000, aged under 25, are not in education or training of any sort."

1.5m Britons haven't had a job since they left school | Mail Online


So again...just what question are you asking? And where in the wide world of sports do you or ANYONE get the notion that people are 'entitled' to be GIVEN ****?

 

[Mach]

The vast majority of entilements have the opposite effect.
As you can see in this thread and nearly every thread in this forum, they also have a caustic effect on the populace.
They create a class division, unethical, unfair, unjust policies.
It's a form of central planning...doomed to fail like it always is.
It becomes a loophole for those in power to pay a class of people, in return for votes (see seniors, for example).
It's according to some, not even supposed to be allowable to this degree constitutionally in the first place.

For those in real need, with real disabilities or children with no parents, etc., they deserve assistance. Whether it's via federal or state/local, is another question, but either way, that small percentage is nothing near the beast of an entitlement program we have in the U.S.

 

[U.S. Socialist.]

Try again...see if you can actually structure the sentence in a manner that is coherent.

The US has 9% unemployment, but that only counts current state unemployed...it doesnt count those that dont file claims, those who have exhausted benefits, or those that never bothered to work. Actual unemployment is significantly higher.

England is no peach. "Almost 1.5 million people in Britain have never done a day’s work in their lives, official figures reveal. The total includes around 800,000 aged between 25 and 64 who have never had a job of any kind. A further 600,000, aged under 25, are not in education or training of any sort."

1.5m Britons haven't had a job since they left school | Mail Online


So again...just what question are you asking? And where in the wide world of sports do you or ANYONE get the notion that people are 'entitled' to be GIVEN ****?

Look at the stats I just posted. The numbers speak for the themselves.

 

[AdamT]

This argument is unconvincing. First, after welfare reform, assistance is limited to two years. Second, do you think anyone really aspires to live the kind of life that welfare buys you? It's sort of like saying, "why should we have low-paying, stress-free jobs? That'll just make EVERYONE want low-paying, stress-free jobs!" Well, not really. Most people aspire to a more comfortable lifestyle.

OTOH, I think we should have some kind of national service for people who are on public assistance and who are physically able to work. Not to demean, but simply to recoup some of our losses and provide a greater incentive to move off of assistance.

 

[pdog]

First, the marginal tax brackets of the lower class have barely moved in 30 years. So without brackets that shift with inflation, taxes have effectively increased on the poor.

Second, Pay is not a function of "hard work," it's the function of society's value of a skill.

 

[Mach]

Second, Pay is not a function of "hard work," it's the function of society's value of a skill.

And finding out what skills society values, and developing them, is hard work.

zing.

 

[OscarB63]

First, the marginal tax brackets of the lower class have barely moved in 30 years. So without brackets that shift with inflation, taxes have effectively increased on the poor.

Second, Pay is not a function of "hard work," it's the function of society's value of a skill.

true. therefore those without skills shouldn't get paid.

2nd Thessalonians chapter 3 verse 10: ...If any will not work, neither let him eat.

 

[Mach]

It's just like a zero tolerance policy on errors in a company.

Yes, there will still be errors, and you evaluate them on a case by case basis. A dumb mistake, or just a slip up, or an intentional error, etc.
But to get anywhere close to zero errors, you MUST SET IT AS YOUR GOAL.

You don't go to a race and shoot for third place, you shoot for first, and if you get third place, OK.

You don't set the goal of people not working.
You especially don't set that goal, and then afford them the opportunity to enjoy (without working!) in absolute terms what is on of the most prosperous and free societies in human history. It's prosperous and free because of HARD WORK. It's not free!

 

[OscarB63]

I have traveled all around the world and the poorest of poor in the USA still have a higher standard of living than the vast majority of people on the planet. and still they bitch and cry because the "free" lifestyle they are GIVEN isn't good enough.

 

[Diving Mullah]

Yeah right... Most of those social-democracies are going broke. Look at Greece as an example. People are in the street because they WANT their "deserved" entitlements and the gov doesn't have the money to provide them. This is what's happening on America.....wake up. Democrats have created a "we deserve" mentality and just so they can gain more votes. Democrats need the poor to stay poor for their votes....

Interesting note about Greece is....they own something around $42,000 per person...Those damn socialist!!!!!...compared to US which is over $45000 per person!

So I guess, the lesson is ...spend on your people more and you owe less!!!

go figure!

Diving Mullah

 

[AdamT]

true. therefore those without skills shouldn't get paid.

2nd Thessalonians chapter 3 verse 10: ...If any will not work, neither let him eat.

It's not a question of working or not working. It's a question of some jobs being compensated better than others, and the disparity isn't always rational. Everyone can't be a doctor or a lawyer or a hedge fund manager. Society also requires welders and janitors and teachers. Is a mathemetician who works on Wall Street more valuable than a mathemetician who does pure research? Is he smarter? Does he perform a more useful function?