Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting [W:977, 1014]

[disneydude]

Re: Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting

I would at least wait 24 hours. Think you can keep your anger in check for that long?

We are not going to silenced any longer. The shaming of people speaking out is a ploy by the NRA and the right-wing to avoid having to talk about the issue. No more moments of silence. The time for action is NOW. Doing nothing is not acceptable any more.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting

The crime would be selling a firearm to a felon. He doesn’t need to know you are a felon in order to be guilty of selling to a felon. As I said before, your premise that one must know in order to commit a crime, is false.

LOL. NOT false!

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/mens_rea

Mens Rea
Overview

Mens Rea refers to criminal intent. The literal translation from Latin is "guilty mind." The plural of mens rea is mentes reae. A mens rea​ refers to the state of mind statutorily required in order to convict a particular defendant of a particular crime. See, e.g. Staples v. United States, 511 US 600 (1994). Establishing the mens rea of an offender is usually necessary to prove guilt in a criminal trial. The prosecution typically must prove beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the offense with a culpable state of mind. Justice Holmes famously illustrated the concept of intent when he said “even a dog knows the difference between being stumbled over and being kicked.”

The mens rea requirement is premised upon the idea that one must possess a guilty state of mind and be aware of his or her misconduct; however, a defendant need not know that their conduct is illegal to be guilty of a crime. Rather, the defendant must be conscious of the “facts that make his conduct fit the definition of the offense.”

So, if I have no requirement to determine if a buyer is a felon, and have no knowledge he is in fact a felon, then I cannot be convicted of a crime of selling a gun to a felon.

Not even a background check would protect me, because the "check" might be flawed. That's why current law requires a seller to perform the background check, and is allowed to complete the sale if the person doesn't get a hit in the various databases. If there is no hit, the seller can proceed. If the person is a felon and not on the list for some reason, the seller cannot be held liable because his only obligation is to run the check, and stop the sale if there is a hit.

 

[upsideguy]

Re: Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting

so please give us a quote or some other thing that supports the NRA has written these people off as acceptable.
absent made the same argument and he provided nothing so lets see if you can actually support this.

so what tightening of laws would have prevented this.

i shall wait for the non-response as always.

Sorry, the silence of the NRA and their puppet politicians is the proof positive that they find the current level of carnage acceptable. All I have seen is their shallow offer of a moment of silence, during which no tears are shed.

Maybe I am wrong. If so, show all of us what legislation Republicans in congress have introduced in the last two years to address the issue of mass shootings in America.

They get all hot and bothered by ISIS, wanted travel bans and wars, but when the wackadoo down the street opens up, silence.

Far more people have been killed in America by the wackadoo branishing a gun than by any ISIS operatives.

If there are no actions / no proposals than it is almost self-evident that the results are acceptable. I am sorry that the NRA and their conned Cons have blood on their hands, but they do.

 

[ecofarm]

Re: Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting

We are not going to silenced any longer. The shaming of people speaking out is a ploy by the NRA and the right-wing to avoid having to talk about the issue. No more moments of silence. The time for action is NOW. Doing nothing is not acceptable any more.

Get training, be aware, maybe buy a gun. That's actually doing something.

 

[MACS-24]

Re: Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting

We are not going to silenced any longer. The shaming of people speaking out is a ploy by the NRA and the right-wing to avoid having to talk about the issue. No more moments of silence. The time for action is NOW. Doing nothing is not acceptable any more.

We are not going to silenced any longer. The shaming of people speaking out is a ploy by the antifa and the left-wing to avoid having to talk about the issue. No more moments of silence. The time for action is NOW. Doing nothing is not acceptable any more.

Go get'em tiger. :roll:

 

[ludin]

Re: Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting

Sorry, the silence of the NRA and their puppet politicians is the proof positive that they find the current level of carnage acceptable. All I have seen is their shallow offer of a moment of silence, during which no tears are shed.

so thanks for admitting that you don't have anything and can't provide any proof that they find these acceptable losses. you are simply doing what absent does and just
makes crap up to fit your agenda. well at you were more forth coming about it than he was. it took me 10 times before he finally admitted it.

Maybe I am wrong. If so, show all of us what legislation Republicans in congress have introduced in the last two years to address the issue of mass shootings in America.

I asked you what would you do. don't dodge and redirect.

They get all hot and bothered by ISIS, wanted travel bans and wars, but when the wackadoo down the street opens up, silence.

it is a bit easy to stop the nut jobs from coming in. again what would you do? you are simply dodging at this point i figured as much but i thought i would give you a chance.

Far more people have been killed in America by the wackadoo branishing a gun than by any ISIS operatives.

You are 100% wrong. according to the CDC there are far more people killed by poison, car accidents, drug overdoses than guns.
your appeal to emotion is not supported by facts.

If there are no actions / no proposals than it is almost self-evident that the results are acceptable. I am sorry that the NRA and their conned Cons have blood on their hands, but they do.

simple fallacy as absent did. you do not get to assign someone your opinion of what you think. that is not how this works.
i see you avoided what you would have done to prevent this while not tramping on the rights of 98% of gun owners.

but as i said in my post i expected a non-response.

the blood is on the hands of the shooter no one else.

 

[holbritter]

Re: Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting

We are not going to silenced any longer. The shaming of people speaking out is a ploy by the NRA and the right-wing to avoid having to talk about the issue. No more moments of silence. The time for action is NOW. Doing nothing is not acceptable any more.

I'm sorry, I don't agree. I think it's in very poor taste to start political bull**** within a few hours of 58 people being killed. I'm saying never to say anything or do nothing, just show some respect for those killed. Unless you don't give a crap about the actual people. To many it appears the politics are more important than the actual people. Disgusting.

 

[Threegoofs]

Re: Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting

Interesting ...

1. Firearms Ownership Increasing While Gun Homicides Plummeting
Gun homicides are down 49% since 1993, according to Bureau of Justice statistics data. Even if there is no causation between more guns and less violence, there sure is a whole lot of correlation going on.
13 Charts Put America'''s Gun Violence in Perspective

10. 'Murder Capitals' of America
The top U.S. cities for murder per capita in 2014: Detroit (45), New Orleans (41), Newark, NJ (40), St. Louis (38), Baltimore (37), Birmingham, AL (30), Cincinnati (24), and Oakland, CA (22).

It should be noted that many cities in the United States that struggle with shooting violence possess some of the toughest gun control regulations.

13 Charts Put America'''s Gun Violence in Perspective​

Naturally I was wondering "Hey what about Chicago?".
I figured maybe the data needs to be updated. Then I found ...

"Chicago Is Responsible for Almost Half of the Increase in U.S. Homicides"
Chicago is the only major U.S. city to report an increase in murders in both 2015 and 2016, which the report’s authors say is related in part to an uptick in gang violence and a decline in the number of detectives on the city’s police force. Violence in Chicago and Charlotte, N.C., where crime is projected to increase 17.5% this year, are essentially offsetting crime dips elsewhere around the U.S.
Chicago Responsible for Nearly Half of U.S. Homicide Spike | Time.com
​

Whew ... that's comforting.

Note:

1: gun ownership is increasing, but numbers of households owning guns has dropped. Maybe less gun owners= Less gun deaths.

2. Chicago’s spike in murders coincidentally happened right after the ban on selling handguns was lifted, and a couple years after handguns were allowed to be sold and CCW was legal.

I don’t think that’s a coincidence, since as every developed nation in the world has demonstrated.... gun control results in less gun deaths. Because common sense.

 

[vash1012]

so you want to curtail the rights of everyone else because of this one incident? That makes absolutely no sense on any rational level unless your actual goal is reducing 2nd amendment rights in this country.

one incident?! One incident?! One incident?!

 

[disneydude]

Re: Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting

I'm sorry, I don't agree. I think it's in very poor taste to start political bull**** within a few hours of 58 people being killed. I'm saying never to say anything or do nothing, just show some respect for those killed. Unless you don't give a crap about the actual people. To many it appears the politics are more important than the actual people. Disgusting.

I guess we disagree. The biggest lack of respect to the people of Sandy Hook or Orlando or Vegas or any of these mass shootings is to sit and do nothing...which is what we have done time and time again. People get upset and call for action....the NRA/Right-wing shame them into speaking out "too soon" (but there is NEVER a good time to speak out in their view)...and the anger wears off and people go on about their lives (which is what the right-wing and the NRA are hoping will happen...which is why they are so quick to squelch public outcry). At some point...and I think we've reached that point....enough is enough. Sitting back and continuing to do nothing....to be shamed in silence is no longer acceptable.

 

[Threegoofs]

Re: Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting

I'm sorry, I don't agree. I think it's in very poor taste to start political bull**** within a few hours of 58 people being killed. I'm saying never to say anything or do nothing, just show some respect for those killed. Unless you don't give a crap about the actual people. To many it appears the politics are more important than the actual people. Disgusting.

Yeah. Remember how we didn’t talk about terrorism solutions after 9/11?

And how we didn’t talk about causes and remedies for the financial collapse in 2008?

Given that we have multiple shootings in the US every single day....just when IS it OK to talk about it?

 

[vash1012]

Re: Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting

I guess we disagree. The biggest lack of respect to the people of Sandy Hook or Orlando or Vegas or any of these mass shootings is to sit and do nothing...which is what we have done time and time again. People get upset and call for action....the NRA/Right-wing shame them into speaking out "too soon" (but there is NEVER a good time to speak out in their view)...and the anger wears off and people go on about their lives (which is what the right-wing and the NRA are hoping will happen...which is why they are so quick to squelch public outcry). At some point...and I think we've reached that point....enough is enough. Sitting back and continuing to do nothing....to be shamed in silence is no longer acceptable.

People upset about "politicizing" death after a mass shooting are really just mad that they are being made to feel bad for supporting gun rights. It has nothing to do with ethics. 4-6 weeks after a mass shooting is about the only time you CAN have a conversation about gun control in this country.

 

[MACS-24]

Re: Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting

Note:

1: gun ownership is increasing, but numbers of households owning guns has dropped. Maybe less gun owners= Less gun deaths.

2. Chicago’s spike in murders coincidentally happened right after the ban on selling handguns was lifted, and a couple years after handguns were allowed to be sold and CCW was legal.

I don’t think that’s a coincidence, since as every developed nation in the world has demonstrated.... gun control results in less gun deaths. Because common sense.

I do not think common sense means what you think it means, there's none in your post. Coincidentally, #2 is strictly biased opinion.

 

[MACS-24]

Re: Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting

Yeah. Remember how we didn’t talk about terrorism solutions after 9/11?

And how we didn’t talk about causes and remedies for the financial collapse in 2008?

Given that we have multiple shootings in the US every single day....just when IS it OK to talk about it?

When the left gets serious about serious solutions.

 

[vash1012]

Being confronted by multiple attackers/home break-ins is not uncommon. The fact that a gun does not have to be fired to prevent an attack, or that other escapes may be possible, does not change that.

And the decision to carry/own a firearm and the risks associated with that are up to that individual to accept or not. They are the ones that deal with those consequences. It's not up to others to tell us what risks to accept or not. You dont know the level of commitment or training individuals have.

Sure, being confronted by multiple attackers is not uncommon. But gun ownership is higher in this country that most of the rest of the world yet we have very few verifiable reports of defensive gun uses. So my assertation is that being assailed by multiple attackers AND having your gun on you AND you are able to pull it out and do anything with it IS almost insanely uncommon given how many guns we have and how much crime we have. I absolutely cannot believe we have millions of unreported defensive gun uses each year that do not make it in any official record or into the media.

The thing is, my friend, you can make that same argument about either side. Who are you to tell every other person in this country that your overblown fear of needing to fight off a gang one day is worth much higher risks associated with the unregulated nature of gun ownership and use in this country?

 

[MAGAnificent]

People can't grow all the pot they want, cook meth or drive drunk because it endangers others. So, maybe we don't want you having a magazine that holds 15 rounds or own 40 guns and 10,000 bullets. :shrug:

Guns can also be made in a home brewed machine shop. And I once had a neighbor who loaded his own shells. What's your point?

 

[MAGAnificent]

Re: Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting

I believe part of the NRA's mission statement, is to educate on gun safety, I do not see much of that going on. How about they take out a few ads prime time educating folks on gun safety, instead of stuffing $$ in to the GOP's coffers.

You are speaking from your own ignorance of the NRA's gun safety education efforts. I am a Life Member and every month's issue of their magazines lists places where they offer gun safety training.

 

[vash1012]

Guns can also be made in a home brewed machine shop. And I once had a neighbor who loaded his own shells. What's your point?

We don't sell Meth at Wal-Mart. I'd much prefer lunatics have to learn metal working to go on a 550 person shooting spree.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Re: Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting

Trump never even mentioned the word gun in his response, 30 million of NRA money to keep the mans mouth shut, not cheap.

Are you suggesting that the NRA sends money to Trump?

 

[yankintx]

Though I will have to go back and research, my guess was right after the Orlando attack it was the "right time" to discuss travel restrictions or other aspects of tightening the noose around arab-americans. No, the Right hates to discuss things they know they are Wrong about.

Now I agree that Monday and Tuesday were not good days to discuss our silly attitude toward guns, but today is Wednesday.

OTH, we have had 1516 mass shootings in 1735 days. So, rarely is there more than two days between mass shootings. So, the discussion has to happen on a mass shooting day....

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/oct/02/america-mass-shootings-gun-violence

Who thinks that 1516 mass shootings giving rise to 1700 deaths and 6500 injuries is a metric of a healthy society?

The Gaurdian had an intetesting write up on this very issue. It boggles the mind how the NRA has the GOP by the short and curlys, now that is a swamp that needs draining. The NRA donated 30mil to Trumps campaigne, watch him and the rest of the GOP kick that can down the road.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting

I believe part of the NRA's mission statement, is to educate on gun safety, I do not see much of that going on. How about they take out a few ads prime time educating folks on gun safety, instead of stuffing $$ in to the GOP's coffers.

Are you kidding me? NRA "safety" courses abound and are often required (by state law) as a prerequisite for CHL/CCW permits in many states. In Texas you must take such a course (about $100 for a six to ten hour course) and pay a $140 non-refundable CHL application fee to get a CHL.

To obtain a Concealed Handgun License in the State of Texas you must complete the minimum 4 to 6 hour course, qualify with a handgun in accordance with the DPS course of fire, and pass a 25 question exam. A student must then apply to the state and pay the current fees and undergo a complete background check for the state to issue a license. There is currently no requirement as to which order an applicant must follow regarding class and online application. The entire process requires the completion of both. Either may be completed before the other.

Texas Concealed Handgun License Certification

If you want the "bargain" version then you can pay $65 for a one hour NRA firearm safety course.

https://centraltexasgunworks.com/firearm-safety-training-class

 

[MAGAnificent]

We don't sell Meth at Wal-Mart. I'd much prefer lunatics have to learn metal working to go on a 550 person shooting spree.

What you prefer, really does not matter.

 

[yankintx]

Re: Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting

Are you kidding me? NRA "safety" courses abound and are often required (by state law) as a prerequisite for CHL/CCW permits in many states. In Texas you must take such a course (about $100 for a six to ten hour course) and pay a $140 non-refundable CHL application fee to get a CHL.



Texas Concealed Handgun License Certification

If you want the "bargain" version then you can pay $65 for a one hour NRA firearm safety course.

https://centraltexasgunworks.com/firearm-safety-training-class

I was refering to public service ads, not classes. After Iraqi, I refuse to hold a gun, had enough of that, dont even want them in my home.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting

I was refering to public service ads, not classes. After Iraqi, I refuse to hold a gun, had enough of that, dont even want them in my home.

Why pay to place "training" ads on TV when you can charge folks to attend firearms safety classes? Better yet, lobby the state governments to require that your classes be taken in order to rent your "right" to carry a handgun back from the state which is more money for the NRA and more money for the state - thus, it's a win-win deal. The NRA is all about making money and then using (some of?) that money to provide campaign cash (legal bribes?) to get favors from the law makers. It seems that the NRA has now essentially become part of the government and has a monopoly, AFAIK, on certifying instructors.

Texas CHL NRA Certified Instructor

 

[yankintx]

Re: Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting

Why pay to place "training" ads on TV when you can charge folks to attend firearms safety classes? Better yet, lobby the state governments to require that your classes be taken in order to rent your "right" to carry a handgun back from the state which is more money for the NRA and more money for the state - thus, it's a win-win deal. The NRA is all about making money and then using (some of?) that money to provide campaign cash (legal bribes?) to get favors from the law makers. It seems that the NRA has now essentially become part of the government and has a monopoly, AFAIK, on certifying instructors.

Texas CHL NRA Certified Instructor

Its called good PR, and the NRA could use some.