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Dear climate change nonbelievers

NAKED N00B

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Imagine for a second that there was some piece of evidence brought forth which proved that the planet was warming and pollution was its root cause. Imagine that this piece of evidence also proved that the repercussions of ignoring the problem would be just as bad as Al Gore says.

What policies would you propose to fix it?
 
With the history of warming and cooling period through the history of the earth, there's probably not much that would convince me. Climate change happens, regardless of humanity. Always has- always will.
 
For starters there is no such thing as a climate changer non-believer. Yesterday it rained here today it is sunny. We cannot dispute climate change which is exactly why the term was crafted in the first place. So if you want to discuss global warming how about saying it instead of using the lame ass climate change term. Sorry, but I am sick of it. That being said, there is literally very little we can do about but go about reducing pollution without at the same time paralyzing economic growth. The greatest threat that we have are the developing nations. If we want to effectively reduce pollution we somehow have to help them raise their standards. I believe in going after the low hanging fruit first. The U.S. already has great standards. If everyone were able to do the same we would greatly reduce pollution.
 
Oh goodie. 'Imagine'. Lets play pretend and make believe. Thats very 'scientific' of you.

Of course...imagine if the cavemen had only heeded Og Gores warnings...then they wouldnt have had that ice age...or every other period of climate change that has existed throughout history.

Kinda funny though that most of us already advocate for cleaner fuel sources and utilizing modern technology to create cleaner air and water and dont need to do your fantasy dance down the rabbit hole like the Gor-ites have done for...what...18 years now.
 
With the history of warming and cooling period through the history of the earth, there's probably not much that would convince me. Climate change happens, regardless of humanity. Always has- always will.

A valid point Lizzie, if I may present a rebuttal:

there's one thing that all sides of the climate debate can agree on, it's that climate has changed naturally in the past. Long before industrial times, the planet underwent many warming and cooling periods. This has led some to conclude that if global temperatures changed naturally in the past, long before SUVs and plasma TVs, nature must be the cause of current global warming. This conclusion is the opposite of peer-reviewed science has found.

Our climate is governed by the following principle: when you add more heat to our climate, global temperatures rise. Conversely, when the climate loses heat, temperatures fall. Say the planet is in positive energy imbalance. More energy is coming in than radiating back out to space. This is known as radiative forcing, the change in net energy flow at the top of the atmosphere. When the Earth experiences positive radiative forcing, our climate accumulates heat and global temperature rises (not monotonically, of course, internal variability will add noise to the signal).

How much does temperature change for a given radiative forcing? This is determined by the planet's climate sensitivity. The more sensitive our climate, the greater the change in temperature. The most common way of describing climate sensitivity is the change in global temperature if atmospheric CO2 is doubled. What does this mean? The amount of energy absorbed by CO2 can be calculated using line-by-line radiative transfer codes. These results have been experimentally confirmed by satellite and surface measurements. The radiative forcing from a doubling of CO2 is 3.7 Watts per square metre (W/m2) (IPCC AR4 Section 2.3.1).

So when we talk about climate sensitivity to doubled CO2, we're talking about the change in global temperatures from a radiative forcing of 3.7 Wm-2. This forcing doesn't necessarily have to come from CO2. It can come from any factor that causes an energy imbalance.

How much does it warm if CO2 is doubled? If we lived in a climate with no feedbacks, global temperatures would rise 1.2°C (Lorius 1990). However, our climate has feedbacks, both positive and negative. The strongest positive feedback is water vapour. As temperature rises, so too does the amount of water vapour in the atmosphere. However, water vapour is a greenhouse gas which causes more warming which leads to more water vapour and so on. There are also negative feedbacks - more water vapour causes more clouds which can have both a cooling and warming effect.

What is the net feedback? Climate sensitivity can be calculated from empirical observations. One needs to find a period where we have temperature records and measurements of the various forcings that drove the climate change. Once you have the change in temperature and radiative forcing, climate sensitivity can be calculated. Figure 1 shows a summary of the peer-reviewed studies that have determined climate sensitivity from past periods (Knutti & Hegerl 2008).


Climate_Sensitivity_Summary.webp

Figure 1: Distributions and ranges for climate sensitivity from different lines of evidence. The circle indicates the most likely value. The thick coloured bars indicate likely value (more than 66% probability). The thin coloured bars indicate most likely values (more than 90% probability). Dashed lines indicate no robust constraint on an upper bound. The IPCC likely range (2 to 4.5°C) and most likely value (3°C) are indicated by the vertical grey bar and black line, respectively.

There have been many estimates of climate sensitivity based on the instrumental record (the past 150 years). Several studies used the observed surface and ocean warming over the twentieth century and an estimate of the radiative forcing. A variety of methods have been employed - simple or intermediate-complexity models, statistical models or energy balance calculations. Satellite data for the radiation budget have also been analyzed to infer climate sensitivity.

Some recent analyses used the well-observed forcing and response to major volcanic eruptions during the twentieth century. A few studies examined palaeoclimate reconstructions from the past millennium or the period around 12,000 years ago when the planet came out of a global ice age (Last Glacial Maximum).

What can we conclude from this? We have a number of independent studies covering a range of periods, studying different aspects of climate and employing various methods of analysis. They all yield a broadly consistent range of climate sensitivity with a most likely value of 3°C for a doubling of CO2.

The combined evidence indicates that the net feedback to radiative forcing is significantly positive. There is no credible line of evidence that yields very high or very low climate sensitivity as a best estimate.

CO2 has caused an accumulation of heat in our climate. The radiative forcing from CO2 is known with high understanding and confirmed by empirical observations. The climate response to this heat build-up is determined by climate sensitivity.

Ironically, when skeptics cite past climate change, they're in fact invoking evidence for strong climate sensitivity and net positive feedback. Higher climate sensitivity means a larger climate response to CO2 forcing. Past climate change actually provides evidence that humans can affect climate now.

So uh, yeah.
 
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A valid point Lizzie, if I may present a rebuttal:

there's one thing that all sides of the climate debate can agree on, it's that climate has changed naturally in the past. Long before industrial times, the planet underwent many warming and cooling periods. This has led some to conclude that if global temperatures changed naturally in the past, long before SUVs and plasma TVs, nature must be the cause of current global warming. This conclusion is the opposite of peer-reviewed science has found.

Science is testable hypotheses. If you can't test the hypothesis, it ain't science. So far, the argument is not that nature must be the cause of global climate change; the argument is that nature is the most likely cause. The burden of proof is on the folks who claim that somehow humans are responsible for the current change, and so far they haven't made the case. I'm with Lizzie on this one.
 
Science is testable hypotheses. If you can't test the hypothesis, it ain't science. So far, the argument is not that nature must be the cause of global climate change; the argument is that nature is the most likely cause. The burden of proof is on the folks who claim that somehow humans are responsible for the current change, and so far they haven't made the case. I'm with Lizzie on this one.

Interesting. So did you actually read all of it, or just single out that little part for your conveyance?
 
Imagine for a second that there was some piece of evidence brought forth which proved that the planet was warming and pollution was its root cause. Imagine that this piece of evidence also proved that the repercussions of ignoring the problem would be just as bad as Al Gore says.

What policies would you propose to fix it?

What repercussions?

These are the only AlGore predictions I am aware of. One that Rush Limbaugh has been keeping on his own webpage for at least 6 years now, it's on the right side, bottom one.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/

3 years, 277 days till doomsday.

Algore: We Have Ten Years Left Before Earth Cooks
January 27, 2006
 
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For starters there is no such thing as a climate changer non-believer. Yesterday it rained here today it is sunny. We cannot dispute climate change which is exactly why the term was crafted in the first place. So if you want to discuss global warming how about saying it instead of using the lame ass climate change term. Sorry, but I am sick of it. That being said, there is literally very little we can do about but go about reducing pollution without at the same time paralyzing economic growth. The greatest threat that we have are the developing nations. If we want to effectively reduce pollution we somehow have to help them raise their standards. I believe in going after the low hanging fruit first. The U.S. already has great standards. If everyone were able to do the same we would greatly reduce pollution.

no, come on, come on, let's answer his question. What would the repercussions be for ignoring a theoretical scenario that AlGore came up with.

My problem is I'm totally unaware of the theoretical model AlGore came up with. So let's disguss AlGore's prophecies in a little more detail for those out of the loop here.


Oh goodie. 'Imagine'. Lets play pretend and make believe. Thats very 'scientific' of you.

Actually "What If" and "imagination land" is very "scientific".
 
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I could tell from the first post where this thread was going.

A better question might have been, "What evidence would convince you of AGW?"
 
Imagine for a second that there was some piece of evidence brought forth which proved that the planet was warming and pollution was its root cause. Imagine that this piece of evidence also proved that the repercussions of ignoring the problem would be just as bad as Al Gore says.

What policies would you propose to fix it?

Even for those who believe in it - and see evidence, see the issues - and can differentiate between *evidence of a problem* and *bs* = they don't have solutions.

We cause elements of natural disruptions here - there - over there - and so on . . .a lot of things have taken their toll. But how to reverse it? End it?

That's much harder than being able to just recognize it.
 
For starters there is no such thing as a climate changer non-believer. Yesterday it rained here today it is sunny. We cannot dispute climate change which is exactly why the term was crafted in the first place. So if you want to discuss global warming how about saying it instead of using the lame ass climate change term. Sorry, but I am sick of it. That being said, there is literally very little we can do about but go about reducing pollution without at the same time paralyzing economic growth. The greatest threat that we have are the developing nations. If we want to effectively reduce pollution we somehow have to help them raise their standards. I believe in going after the low hanging fruit first. The U.S. already has great standards. If everyone were able to do the same we would greatly reduce pollution.

Lung cancer has existed as long as lungs have existed. Therefore, cigarettes cannot possibly cause lung cancer. Right?

You can't argue a scientific topic with a three sentence bit of faulty logic.

Science is testable hypotheses. If you can't test the hypothesis, it ain't science. So far, the argument is not that nature must be the cause of global climate change; the argument is that nature is the most likely cause. The burden of proof is on the folks who claim that somehow humans are responsible for the current change, and so far they haven't made the case. I'm with Lizzie on this one.

They've made a very compelling case, and I'm not sure what you're talking about with the testable hypothesis. You're not really suggesting that evidence has not been collected, are you?
 
Actually "What If" and "imagination land" is very "scientific".
Its a great place to start research...its NOT a great place to obligate hundreds of billions of dollars that you dont have and dump the debt onto future generations.
 
Its a great place to start research...its NOT a great place to obligate hundreds of billions of dollars that you dont have and dump the debt onto future generations.

Nobody is suggesting we obligate hundreds of billions of dollars on a completely untested hypothesis. He's just asking what methods people would support if we assume for the sake of argument that AGW theory is correct.

Side note: I will agree with the sentiment that "non believer" is not an accurate term for AGW skeptics, any more than "believer" is an accurate term for AGW proponents.
 
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Its a great place to start research...its NOT a great place to obligate hundreds of billions of dollars that you dont have and dump the debt onto future generations.

Well this is a what if topic, and I like science fiction.

Even for those who believe in it - and see evidence, see the issues - and can differentiate between *evidence of a problem* and *bs* = they don't have solutions.

Why can't anyone stick to the topic?

I could tell from the first post where this thread was going.

A better question might have been, "What evidence would convince you of AGW?"

That aint the topic, the topic is what if it were real.

You know why nobody ever thinks this far ahead? Cause Global Warming isn't about solving problems and science, it's about politics. That's why it's impossible for anyone to stick to the topic.
 
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With the history of warming and cooling period through the history of the earth, there's probably not much that would convince me. Climate change happens, regardless of humanity. Always has- always will.

I see all the money BIG OIL has spent on propaganda and teaching people fake science has been well spent...

People will actually ignore the majority of the worlds' scientists and listen instead to DOPES on TV.
 
I still can't believe that people think science is some form of capitalism...
 
Imagine for a second that there was some piece of evidence brought forth which proved that the planet was warming and pollution was its root cause. Imagine that this piece of evidence also proved that the repercussions of ignoring the problem would be just as bad as Al Gore says.

What policies would you propose to fix it?

There was a famous study a few years ago that showed that conservative leaning people tent to stick even stronger to their beliefs even if they witness concrete and incontrovertible proof against what they believe in.

That's because beliefs are based on emotions and not reason. Asking nonbelievers, as you called them, which is what they are, to imagine a scenario where they are completely wrong about what they chose to believe in, is a waste of time.

The human-caused destruction of the environment, global warming and it's dire consequences were being brought to society's attention by scientists and academics since the early '70's or even earlier. It is unfortunate that conservative politics, and more specifically Republican financial interests, have been the major factor behind the exponential increase of environmental destruction in the past 40 years. It is even more unfortunate that so many people choose to dismiss reality and believe the conservative principle of destruction for profit, and dismissal of any long term consequences of human actions.
 
There was a famous study a few years ago that showed that conservative leaning people tent to stick even stronger to their beliefs even if they witness concrete and incontrovertible proof against what they believe in.

That's because beliefs are based on emotions and not reason. Asking nonbelievers, as you called them, which is what they are, to imagine a scenario where they are completely wrong about what they chose to believe in, is a waste of time.

The human-caused destruction of the environment, global warming and it's dire consequences were being brought to society's attention by scientists and academics since the early '70's or even earlier. It is unfortunate that conservative politics, and more specifically Republican financial interests, have been the major factor behind the exponential increase of environmental destruction in the past 40 years. It is even more unfortunate that so many people choose to dismiss reality and believe the conservative principle of destruction for profit, and dismissal of any long term consequences of human actions.

Well - I think part of this issue centers around the facts *of* 'cause and effect'

(I'm not supporting any one theory or another) But everything can effect the earth - like the butterfly effect (butterfly flaps it's wings - etc) . . . things are strung together. Our activities as a whole group of people in large number (like a city population) produces a notable effect on it's surrounding area. For example: Smog - yes, we see smog - we know it's there - we see it's effect over the years on wildlife and people's health = it's an obvious truth. Very simple, very blunt.

In geology class we learned how A leads to Z - and it's all common sense, basic, simple stuff just like 'smog is bad for your health' - and it goes together, it makes sense and the evidence of G and Q are undeniable.

So the issue that I see is that people are only getting X Y Z - the end of the story. They're not getting anything that leads up to it - and I don't blame people for dismissing a plunket of 'endfacts' before they learn about everything else first. . . knowledge doesn't happen that way. To have acceptance you have to have full understanding of the processes in question.

To have full understanding someone needs to take *a lot of time* to truly understand A - Z of the events in question. . . along the way to learning about P and R someone might find out conflicting facts that lead them in another direction - or prove their initial beliefs and disproved other beliefs. But people have to *want* to take that time.
 
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For the sake of argument lets say man is effecting the climate, something always is. The earth is as a rule coming out of one ice age or going into another on natural cycles enhanced or changed by pesky asteroid hits, volcanic activity, the suns strength, the earths varying orbit around the sun, super volcanoes etc etc etc, if man is one of a million causes for the earths climate to vary, so be it.
 
...if man is one of a million causes for the earths climate to vary, so be it.

The earth, as a planet, is not dependent on the acts of any species living on it. Earth has survived catastrophes that are beyond our understanding.

The issue is about our own dependence on the climate which we are destroying ourselves, without any concern for the long range - in our time scale - consequences of our actions, not about the planet.

The fateful asteroid that annihilated the dinosaurs 65 million years go did a lot more damage to the the earth than we could ever do. The earth survived it.

The problem is that we're poisoning and killing our own children with the sewage we're spewing at extraordinary levels. Refusal to acknowledge this reality is the mark of the ignorant.

Which is what all Conservatives and Republicans have been and are for the past 60 years at least.
 
Well - the earth as a whole = no. . . nature on a large scale always wins.

But thinking smaller: yes - we've managed to drain the Everglades to farm sugarcane :shrug: We continuously try to direct the flow of the Mississippi. . . all this has an effect on surrounding plantlife and such. . . but mother nature in the end will win out - teh Everglades will be swallowed up again and New Orleans will go under again and they won't be coming back up.

On the geological timescale - we're insignificant and whatever effects we've had on the water table, for example, in the dessert - it'll regain itself . . . whether or not we're still around won't mean much. . . at this rate - the only things that wil suffer a horrifying disaster because of it won't be the earth: it'll be us.
 
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For starters there is no such thing as a climate changer non-believer. Yesterday it rained here today it is sunny. We cannot dispute climate change which is exactly why the term was crafted in the first place. So if you want to discuss global warming how about saying it instead of using the lame ass climate change term. Sorry, but I am sick of it. That being said, there is literally very little we can do about but go about reducing pollution without at the same time paralyzing economic growth. The greatest threat that we have are the developing nations. If we want to effectively reduce pollution we somehow have to help them raise their standards. I believe in going after the low hanging fruit first. The U.S. already has great standards. If everyone were able to do the same we would greatly reduce pollution.

Firstly, sun yesterday and rain today is weather, not climate. Climate is a pattern of weather over an extended period of time. Climate change is not a change in day to day weather. It's a significant shift in temperature, precipitation, etc. I think the term climate change probably gained popularity because clowns would laugh off global warming by using local weather (eg OMJ 14 inches of snow. wut happend 2 global warming lolololol). A global increase in temperature of a degree or two is not easily perceived by individuals. Changes in climate are.

Regarding paralyzing economic growth, do you believe that economic activity which is so costly that people are not willing to pay for it is bad economics and should be ignored? Isn't that the argument against a lot of alternative energy? That the costs are too high and the industries cannot survive in the free market? If that is the case, if we were to internalize the hidden costs to society of pollution, and the price is above what the market is willing to pay, isn't that bad economics and they deserve to fail?

Oh goodie. 'Imagine'. Lets play pretend and make believe. Thats very 'scientific' of you.

Of course...imagine if the cavemen had only heeded Og Gores warnings...then they wouldnt have had that ice age...or every other period of climate change that has existed throughout history.

Kinda funny though that most of us already advocate for cleaner fuel sources and utilizing modern technology to create cleaner air and water and dont need to do your fantasy dance down the rabbit hole like the Gor-ites have done for...what...18 years now.

I proposed this question because some dogmatic knuckle draggers cannot get past their skepticism revolving around AGW. So I thought maybe by ignoring the debate over the legitimacy of the science we could have a real debate about what kind of policies would be best. It seems like a simple concept. I'm surprised it has gone so far over your head.
 
Firstly, sun yesterday and rain today is weather, not climate. Climate is a pattern of weather over an extended period of time. Climate change is not a change in day to day weather. It's a significant shift in temperature, precipitation, etc. I think the term climate change probably gained popularity because clowns would laugh off global warming by using local weather (eg OMJ 14 inches of snow. wut happend 2 global warming lolololol). A global increase in temperature of a degree or two is not easily perceived by individuals. Changes in climate are.

Regarding paralyzing economic growth, do you believe that economic activity which is so costly that people are not willing to pay for it is bad economics and should be ignored? Isn't that the argument against a lot of alternative energy? That the costs are too high and the industries cannot survive in the free market? If that is the case, if we were to internalize the hidden costs to society of pollution, and the price is above what the market is willing to pay, isn't that bad economics and they deserve to fail?
I proposed this question because some dogmatic knuckle draggers cannot get past their skepticism revolving around AGW. So I thought maybe by ignoring the debate over the legitimacy of the science we could have a real debate about what kind of policies would be best. It seems like a simple concept. I'm surprised it has gone so far over your head.
:lamo Awesome! "My idiotic arguments trying to prove AGW have failed somehow, so, instead, lets just jump right past that and straight to 'pretend I'm right'"

Typical...comical...classic. :lamo
 
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