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"Dead wrong"

KidRocks

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And that about summarizes President Bush's intelligence plan on attacking Iraq. About 1800+ of our troops are dead, and now we have another witness testifying President Bush was wrong... dead wrong!

But that still doesn't stop President Bush from declaring that he was right all along.

Good God, what will it take for America to wake up? :roll:









http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/08/19/powell.un/index.html

(CNN) -- A former top aide to Colin Powell says his involvement in the former secretary of state's presentation to the United Nations on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction was "the lowest point" in his life.

"I wish I had not been involved in it," says Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, a longtime Powell adviser who served as his chief of staff from 2002 through 2005. "I look back on it, and I still say it was the lowest point in my life."

Wilkerson is one of several insiders interviewed for the CNN Presents documentary "Dead Wrong -- Inside an Intelligence Meltdown." The program, which airs Sunday at 8 p.m. and 11 p.m. ET, pieces together the events leading up to the mistaken WMD intelligence that was presented to the public. A presidential commission that investigated the pre-war WMD intelligence found much of it to be "dead wrong."

Powell's speech, delivered on February 5, 2003, made the case for the war by presenting U.S. intelligence that purported to prove that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. Wilkerson says the information in Powell's presentation initially came from a document he described as "sort of a Chinese menu" that was provided by the White House.
 
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cnredd

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Congrats...you've made this point...

The administration doesn't have 100% agreement from all of its members.

Care to tell me a government in all of history that did?

Read up on Dick Morris...former advisor to Clinton...he now makes a living criticizing
everything Clinton did.

Welcome to Politics 101
 
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KidRocks

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cnredd said:
Congrats...you've made this point...

The administration doesn't have 100% agreement from all of its members.

Care to tell me a government in all of history that did?


No, I wouldn't, that is not the point here as you well know.

The point here is that this was no simple disagreement, the point here is that President Bush ignored many red flags when considering his attack on Iraq. The point here is that 1800 of our brave troops lives have been sacrificed intentionally and woefully by a Republican administration with negligence and malice.

I congratulate you for once again resorting to belittling and demeaning our braves troops deaths as a simple "disagreement" because you made my point in case!
 

cnredd

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KidRocks said:
No, I wouldn't, that is not the point here as you well know.

The point here is that this was no simple disagreement, the point here is that President Bush ignored many red flags when considering his attack on Iraq. The point here is that 1800 of our brave troops lives have been sacrificed intentionally and woefully by a Republican administration with negligence and malice.

I congratulate you for once again resorting to belittling and demeaning our braves troops deaths as a simple "disagreement" because you made my point in case!
Close your eyes and imagine this...You & I are in the middle of a circle of US soldiers...I show them everything I've ever posted in this forum...you show them your posts...

Whose getting out of that circle alive?

I'll tell your family you'll be a "little" late for dinner...
 

Simon W. Moon

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cnredd said:
Close your eyes and imagine this...You & I are in the middle of a circle of US soldiers...I show them everything I've ever posted in this forum...you show them your posts...

Whose getting out of that circle alive?

I'll tell your family you'll be a "little" late for dinner...
I see no reason to believe that our soldiers are amoral, criminal, thugs as you seem to imply. The service members I've met have all been sensible folks not at all prone to acts of murder.
 

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What's more, I'm sure the hypothetical soldiers would far prefer a person who's not keen to spill their blood at the drop of a hat.
 

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What part of this do you Liberals not understand? We are in Iraq now...Whether we should have gone is irrelevant..........We need to finish the job and not cut and run like you want to do and that is what this president will do.......

Get over it..............
 

cnredd

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Simon W. Moon said:
I see no reason to believe that our soldiers are amoral, criminal, thugs as you seem to imply. The service members I've met have all been sensible folks not at all prone to acts of murder.
There is no implication of that whatsoever, and I'm surprised that you would think otherwise when you've known me this long.:(

You missed the analogy's point...I am saying that OTHERS are demeaning to the troops and I have supported them and their Commander-In-Cheif without question, just like this country used to do(with exceptions) before Vietnam. I firmly believe their are times when the right to free speech SHOULD not be excersized to show the world a little unity within the country, but others think it is a perfect time to take shots at the ruling party in order to gain political power...Think "Sen. Durbin"...I find this disgusting...

If I showed the troops my posts about support on this thread, they'd be shaking my hand and saying "Thank you!".

Saying someone wouldn't get "out of that circle alive" is an exaggeration, yes, but thinking I was being literal is a little over-the-top, don't you think?

If someone said, "I'll kick you ass!", do you think there is going to be a fight? Or do you imagine someone putting a boot to somebody's butt?
 
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Navy Pride said:
What part of this do you Liberals not understand? We are in Iraq now...Whether we should have gone is irrelevant..........We need to finish the job and not cut and run like you want to do and that is what this president will do.......

Get over it..............

Ah yes that's the ticket. Lets all just ignore the downing street memo, lets just forget about the fact that the intelligence was built around a preexisting policy. Because after all what's in the past is in the past and we should all move on with our lives.

I am so tired of you conservatives trying to silence the dissent over an administration which has lied by saying "well we're there now so lets all just shut up". Don't you get that it is worth talking about? And do you not understand that we can continue fighting in Iraq while examining the somewhat shady business the government was up to before the invasion?
 

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Navy Pride said:
What part of this do you Liberals not understand? We are in Iraq now...Whether we should have gone is irrelevant..........We need to finish the job and not cut and run like you want to do and that is what this president will do.......

Get over it..............
Well, then I suppose since the Holocaust has been and past, whether or not it should have happened is irrelevant, too.
 

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cnredd said:
There is no implication of that whatsoever, and I'm surprised that you would think otherwise when you've known me this long.
Well, I found it surprising so I re-read it.
 

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AllAmericanRageJunky said:
Ah yes that's the ticket. Lets all just ignore the downing street memo, lets just forget about the fact that the intelligence was built around a preexisting policy. Because after all what's in the past is in the past and we should all move on with our lives.

I am so tired of you conservatives trying to silence the dissent over an administration which has lied by saying "well we're there now so lets all just shut up". Don't you get that it is worth talking about? And do you not understand that we can continue fighting in Iraq while examining the somewhat shady business the government was up to before the invasion?
So is it your answer to cut and run like we did in Nam which would mean 1800 men died for nothing?
 

cnredd

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Simon W. Moon said:
Well, I found it surprising so I re-read it.
And still thought the same thing after a re-read??!?!?!

C'Mon Simon!...You know me better that that!

At least, hopefully, my point has been cleared up and you know I play for the home-team.
 
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Navy Pride said:
So is it your answer to cut and run like we did in Nam which would mean 1800 men died for nothing?
when did I say anything about running? And you seem to have not responded to my post, rather you have continued trying to equate examining the intelligence debacle with completely abandoning Iraq. So are you gonna get on that any time soon?
 

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vergiss said:
Well, then I suppose since the Holocaust has been and past, whether or not it should have happened is irrelevant, too.
You example is ridiculous.....Its not worth a response.......
 

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KidRocks said:
And that about summarizes President Bush's intelligence plan on attacking Iraq. About 1800+ of our troops are dead, and now we have another witness testifying President Bush was wrong... dead wrong!

But that still doesn't stop President Bush from declaring that he was right all along.

Good God, what will it take for America to wake up? :roll:









http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/08/19/powell.un/index.html

(CNN) -- A former top aide to Colin Powell says his involvement in the former secretary of state's presentation to the United Nations on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction was "the lowest point" in his life.

"I wish I had not been involved in it," says Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, a longtime Powell adviser who served as his chief of staff from 2002 through 2005. "I look back on it, and I still say it was the lowest point in my life."

Wilkerson is one of several insiders interviewed for the CNN Presents documentary "Dead Wrong -- Inside an Intelligence Meltdown." The program, which airs Sunday at 8 p.m. and 11 p.m. ET, pieces together the events leading up to the mistaken WMD intelligence that was presented to the public. A presidential commission that investigated the pre-war WMD intelligence found much of it to be "dead wrong."

Powell's speech, delivered on February 5, 2003, made the case for the war by presenting U.S. intelligence that purported to prove that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. Wilkerson says the information in Powell's presentation initially came from a document he described as "sort of a Chinese menu" that was provided by the White House.
Since when did CNN become a independent news. The last time I checked it was never! Also you failed to mention that the National Geographic Channel is doing a show on what happened on 9/11. As for CNN, they can read my "few details about yourself" in my User CP! :mrgreen:
 

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AllAmericanRageJunky said:
when did I say anything about running? And you seem to have not responded to my post, rather you have continued trying to equate examining the intelligence debacle with completely abandoning Iraq. So are you gonna get on that any time soon?
We elect people to represent us in the Congress and for the presidency.....Those people agreed on removing Saddam from power........If you don't like their decisions vote them out of office.....

As far as the intelligence goes everyone including the UN thought Saddam had WOMD.....Just because we did not find them does not mean he did not have them..........Iraq is the size of California and a WOMD could be the size of a Vail of smallpox that could fit in your hand......They could be buried in the desert or moved to Syria......

Now answer my question.......What would you do now?
 

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galenrox said:
This example is pertinent, considering that it goes by your logic. Your logic is essentially we're in there, so don't worry about why, and that logic would apply to the holocaust, it's over, so why worry about it happening or why it happened. So if you wish to defend your logic, do so, but failing to respond is essentially admitting that your logic is ridiculous.
No, I am for backing the commander in chief and I roops and their mission.....Cutting and run like you want would only mean that 1800 brave men and wome died in vain.........
 

cnredd

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galenrox said:
This example is pertinent, considering that it goes by your logic. Your logic is essentially we're in there, so don't worry about why, and that logic would apply to the holocaust, it's over, so why worry about it happening or why it happened. So if you wish to defend your logic, do so, but failing to respond is essentially admitting that your logic is ridiculous.
With respect, I look at it the opposite way...

If more people knew about the Holocaust when it was happening, they wouldn't start debating its reasons or ramifications immediately....They would put a stop to it and worry about that stuff later.

That is what those on the right...including myself...are saying now...

We should stand behind the President, nomatter who he is, when it comes to military action, WHEN the action is occurring. He was given the authority to make these kinds of decisions through the Constitution and with Congress's blessing, also through the Constitution.

Dissenting opinion, although legal through the First Amendment, does NOTHING positive during a military action. It just divides the nation more, and gives the international community the opportunity to say, "See?...They can't even agree amongst themselves!" This creates more opposition to this country.

Many want GWB gone...fine...but that's a national internal affair; not international...airing our dirty laundry to the world only gives them another reason to think poorly of us. That should be done AFTER the military action is completed; not during.
 

cnredd

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galenrox said:
Excuse me, but please don't assume what I want.

You know full well that you are oversimplifying this situation. War is never this simple. If we leave, yes, it will all have been pointless, but if we stay and we don't win, then 2,000 may die in vain, or 3,000, or 4,000. In business there's a term called deadweight loss, it's where you have to come to terms with when you're losing, and try to minimize the loss. If we can win this, fine, but if we can't, as it seems now, then we need to get out before more American sons and daughters die pointlessly.
Where does it seem we can't?...Other than the media, of course...

There have been elections, and there in the process of creating their own Constitution...when they get their security forces in check, then it'll be time to go.

This is FAR from a "deadweight loss" situation...We were in Japan 6 years...and they were helping!...2 years in Iraq and it's "give up" time?

The "remote control" is firmly ensconced now...If it's not done in 10 minutes, then it's not worth doing....
 

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galenrox said:
Excuse me, but please don't assume what I want.

You know full well that you are oversimplifying this situation. War is never this simple. If we leave, yes, it will all have been pointless, but if we stay and we don't win, then 2,000 may die in vain, or 3,000, or 4,000. In business there's a term called deadweight loss, it's where you have to come to terms with when you're losing, and try to minimize the loss. If we can win this, fine, but if we can't, as it seems now, then we need to get out before more American sons and daughters die pointlessly.
Sadly men and women die in war...No one like that fact...........But if we leave then the 1800 men and women who have died would have died in vain and many Iraqis will be murdered by the terrorists...........We made that mistake in Nam and thank Gode we have a president that will not mkae the same mistake.............

You probably did not know that on D Day in WW2 we lost 6,000 men.......I don't think anyone thought these men died in vain.......
 

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Navy Pride said:
No, I am for backing the commander in chief and I roops and their mission.....Cutting and run like you want would only mean that 1800 brave men and wome died in vain.........
Why do people ALWAYS think that we're going to win?

It's always "we're making good progress in Iraq, our troops are doing a super-job!!" then moments later "4 more Marines have been killed in combat"... if we're winning then why are we still dying at such a rate? I'm sure that when George Bush is told about these soldiers it's not such a big number, but you have to look at the fact that it's not 4 people suffering... it's the soldier's family, the soldier's friends.

Why do you only use your logic with Iraq? What about Afghanistan and the real terrorists who attacked us on 9/11? I believe those who have died in Afghanistan have now died in vain... Yes, we did liberate Afghanistan and for that I'm glad, but the Taliban is still killing people.

I'm sorry to inform you but this objective George Dubya set is rediculous. Iraq won't EVER stablize, unless the Iraqi people can do it on their own without foreigners.

This idea of "we've got to finish the objective or our 1,800 troops died in vain" is completely lunacy. What happens if the enemy adopts that theory?

I hate this war, I'm tired of hearing on the news that people are dying. Now if you'll excuse a brother I've got to go make music with my metal band.
 

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Navy Pride said:
Sadly men and women die in war...No one like that fact...........But if we leave then the 1800 men and women who have died would have died in vain and many Iraqis will be murdered by the terrorists...........We made that mistake in Nam and thank Gode we have a president that will not mkae the same mistake.............

You probably did not know that on D Day in WW2 we lost 6,000 men.......I don't think anyone thought these men died in vain.......

There is NO abosultely NO comparing the Iraqi Struggle and World War II, especially D-Day. I don't think Saddam was even half the man Hitler was, plus Saddam barely had an army after the U.N. failed their objective and turned many Iraqis on westerners. Good Going Bush Sr.
 

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galenrox said:
What you need to remember is that as an American citizen it isn't only our right, it's our responsibility to criticize the president when we feel his actions aren't in the best interest of us or in the best interest of America as a whole.
You write this to someone else earlier...

Excuse me, but please don't assume what I want.

and then follow with THIS?

What you need to remember...

tsk,tsk,tsk:naughty

galenrox said:
And the fact that there are dissenters are helping us in the long run. I've met a lot of people from other countries, and they always end up saying "It's so great to know that there are people like me and other people who are anti-war" cause I don't know if you know this, but the rest of the world thinks that we're just a bunch of dumb jock hicks.
And have been thinking this long before Bush showd up...

galenrox said:
And showing our dissent sends a message that we aren't hypocrites. We say we're going there to spread freedom, but if we all were like "Yeah, go war!!!", who the **** would honestly believe that over 200 million people agree with this ****ing thing? They'd assume we're jackass hypocrites who claim to be spreading freedom when we don't actually have freedom ourselves.
Can you show me someplace where a non-American says "At least they're not hypocritical"...It doesn't need to be that specific quote...I'm a prick, but not that much of a prick(No comments!);)

galenrox said:
These excuses about why we're failing in Iraq don't cut it. We are failing because it was a stupid plan and a stupid war. I really doubt there is a single insurgent who is basing whether or not they are gonna blow themselves up on what I have to say about the war.
We are handcuffed by the international community that attempts to place "political correctness" into a military action. For thousands of years, the biggest rule of war was "win"...For the last 40 years it's been "win...but only under certain conditions."

You and I both know that if we wanted to, the US could turn Iraq into parking lot in about 20 minutes....Why hasn't this happened?....Because we're
NOT ALLOWED. "It would be wrong!" cries the apologists and appeasers.

So we can't conduct the war they way a true war should be conducted....quickly as possible with as much damage inflicted to obtain a submission. We ticky-tack and nit-pick the smaller items and start to drift away from the bigger picture.
 
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Navy Pride said:
We elect people to represent us in the Congress and for the presidency.....Those people agreed on removing Saddam from power........If you don't like their decisions vote them out of office.....

As far as the intelligence goes everyone including the UN thought Saddam had WOMD.....Just because we did not find them does not mean he did not have them..........Iraq is the size of California and a WOMD could be the size of a Vail of smallpox that could fit in your hand......They could be buried in the desert or moved to Syria......

Now answer my question.......What would you do now?
Those people were shown bias intelligence geared towards fooling them and the public into beleiving that we were in imminent danger of being attacked. I do not like their decisions and I will be voting them out of office.

Not everyone, as a matter of fact I distinctly remember a number of U.N. weapons inspectors essentialy saying "dude they aren't there, he doesn't have them and hasn't had them since Clinton bombed him the last time".

Ah yes a needle in a haystack. Funny how the Bushies didn't seem to have a problem finding these alleged WOMD's before the invasion. Guess it's much harder to fake evidence when you've actually got people on the ground looking but still not finding anything.

What would I do now? Well I could tell you, but seeing as how you have managed to somewhat address the actual topic of the thread but still managed to fail at answering my questions I will not.

Once you answer my question which was "do you acknowledge that it is possible to examine intelligence which made a case for war, while still waging said war?", I will be more than happy to answer yours. Then we will be the best of buds and go out and have a pint together.
 
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