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"Dead wrong"

galenrox said:
Excuse me, but please don't assume what I want.

You know full well that you are oversimplifying this situation. War is never this simple. If we leave, yes, it will all have been pointless, but if we stay and we don't win, then 2,000 may die in vain, or 3,000, or 4,000. In business there's a term called deadweight loss, it's where you have to come to terms with when you're losing, and try to minimize the loss. If we can win this, fine, but if we can't, as it seems now, then we need to get out before more American sons and daughters die pointlessly.

Another milestone about to be met. We continue to capture highlevel terrorist , the top Alqeada in Saudi Arabia killed this week.

Why do you believe we can't continue to be successful?
What would you rather do?
Why do you claim our causualties have been pointless? You don't believe removing Saddam and the threat he posed and bringing an elected government to Iraq were/are worthty goals?

We may lose this war against terrorist. If we do it will be due to the campaign to destroy our will to carry it out. If the unwilling win, and we pull out then the terrorist win.
 
I'm sorry to inform you but this objective George Dubya set is rediculous. Iraq won't EVER stablize, unless the Iraqi people can do it on their own without foreigners.

Of course you Liberals that hate the president (and make no mistake about it that is what this is all about) have to hope and pray things go wrong in Iraq even if it means our brave troops dying to do it.....You have to be completely negative on eveything thing that is happening there......That is the sad part

I hope and pray to God I never hate someone as much as you Liberals hate President Bush that I have to hope things go bad for me to win as a Conservative........

As I said before I was no big fan of Clinton because I think he disgraced the office of the Presidency but when it comes to our military in Bosnia and the other places we invaded (without UN Sanction) I backed his actions
 
galenrox said:
I sincerely hope you are not trying to compare the war in Iraq to WW2. What possible similarities are there between this war and WW2? Here we started this war with a few countries with no real military might to speak of, and with the random other military powers out there we've got one, only ONE on our side. We went into war based on lies and mistakes. We rushed into war despite massive opposition.
In WW2 we avoided war as much as we could. We went into a war that we had to fight, with the backing of all other military powers. We knew full well that this was a real war, with real reasons to go fight it, and almost unanimous support.
The real comparison is with Vietnam, a quagmire in which we've lost a lot of Americans, and we have no real signs of possible victory other than killing everyone in the opposing nation, and we use the dead as an excuse to stick around and let more die.
Why do you hate the military so much that you wish death upon them?

The comparison I am trying to make is that men die in wars.....They did not die in vain in WW2 like they did in Nam and under this President they won't die in vain in Iraq........No matter how much Liberal whine cut and run is not and option..........
 
Not everyone, as a matter of fact I distinctly remember a number of U.N. weapons inspectors essentialy saying "dude they aren't there, he doesn't have them and hasn't had them since Clinton bombed him the last time".

Yes your right the pedophile and child molestor was one of those inspectors that said it after Saddam paid him $400,000. :roll:

Get a frigging clue...
 
Navy Pride said:
Of course you Liberals that hate the president (and make no mistake about it that is what this is all about) have to hope and pray things go wrong in Iraq even if it means our brave troops dying to do it.....You have to be completely negative on eveything thing that is happening there......That is the sad part

My how right you are. Why I remember just the other night I turned to my dad and said "oh good another four got shot, this'll help us commi-liberals in the next elections"

don't sit there and pretend that you lot somehow care about our troops more than anyone else.
 
Navy Pride said:
Yes your right the pedophile and child molestor was one of those inspectors that said it after Saddam paid him $400,000. :roll:

Get a frigging clue...


Ah yes I am sure the Saddam paid off ever weapons inspector that came through there and said "there is nothing here".

Boy you sure are good at getting off topic and cowardly avoiding questions.
 
Stinger said:
We may lose this war against terrorist. If we do it will be due to the campaign to destroy our will to carry it out. If the unwilling win, and we pull out then the terrorist win.
I think that what you're prob'l referring to as "the campaign to destroy our will" is someone's fantastical invention. But, as this pertains to what you may or may not be thinking, I'm prone to be wrong.

I think that the keys to success or lack of success are here in this snippet of a Rumsfeld memo:
Are we capturing, killing or deterring and dissuading more terrorists every day than the madrassas and the radical clerics are recruiting, training and deploying against us?

Does the US need to fashion a broad, integrated plan to stop the next generation of terrorists? The US is putting relatively little effort into a long-range plan, but we are putting a great deal of effort into trying to stop terrorists. The cost-benefit ratio is against us! Our cost is billions against the terrorists' costs of millions.
The crucial issue is how to deal with those who no longer persuadable and who have already become commmitted to terroristic acts in such a way that we don't alienate those who are friendly or moderate and so that we don't fuel the recruiting fires of the recent mushrooming of Islamist, terrorist organizations around the world.

If we lose, it's more likely to be because we helped radicalize more people than we deterred, radicalized more people than we persuaded, and radicalized more people than we rendered harmless.
...[The GWoT] focused attention solely, and incorrectly, on the military campaign.

[General Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff] "objected to the use of the term 'war on terrorism' before, because if you call it a war, then you think of people in uniform as being the solution."

The solution is "more diplomatic, more economic, more political than it is military," he concluded.
These methods are more efficient, more bang for our bucks, than martial options. As Rumsfeld noted, cost is an issue. Of course, these things don't have much effect on those who are already radicalized and violent- the bullets are for those folks. The issue is to cut-off the terrorists' reinforcements. Hearts and minds is an essential objective. We cannot succeeed without achiveing this objective.

Report of the Defense Science Board Task Force on Strategic Communication
“Strategic communication requires a sophisticated method … … [it] will build on in depth knowledge of other cultures and factors that motivate human behavior. It will adapt techniques of skillful political campaigning … It will engage in a respectful dialogue of ideas that begins with listening and assumes decades of sustained effort.

“[Global] opinions must be taken into account when [US] policy options are considered and implemented.

“The Task Force recommends that the President issue a directive to: (a) strengthen the U.S. Government’s ability to understand global public opinion, advise on the strategic implications of policymaking, and communicate with global audiences ...

“The strategic environment has changed radically since the October 2001 Task Force report. We face a war on terrorism, intensified conflict within Islam, and insurgency in Iraq. Worldwide anger and discontent are directed at America’s tarnished credibility and ways the U.S. pursues its goals.

"The information campaign — or as some still would have it, “the war of ideas,” or the struggle for “hearts and minds” — is important to every war effort. In this war it is an essential objective ... But American efforts have not only failed in this respect: they may also have achieved the opposite of what they intended.
American direct intervention in the Muslim World has paradoxically elevated the stature of and support for radical Islamists ...

• Muslims do not “hate our freedom,” but rather, they hate our policies.

• Furthermore, in the eyes of Muslims, American occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq has not led to democracy there, but only more chaos and suffering.

• Therefore, the dramatic narrative since 9/11 has essentially borne out the entire radical Islamist bill of particulars. American actions and the flow of events have elevated the authority of the Jihadi insurgents and tended to ratify their legitimacy among Muslims. Fighting groups portray themselves as the true defenders of an Ummah ... to broad public support.

• What was a marginal network is now an Ummah-wide movement of fighting groups. Not only has there been a proliferation of “terrorist” groups: the unifying context of a shared cause creates a sense of affiliation across the many cultural and sectarian boundaries that divide Islam.

Defense Science Board's Transition to and from Hostilities
As in the past, the events in Iraq have also served to emphasize that religious and cultural motivations are crucial in determining human behavior. The only way to understand the motivations of an opponent is by having a real understanding of the historical and religious framework that has molded his culture. It is clear that Americans who waged the war and who have attempted to mold the aftermath have had no clear idea of the framework that has molded the personalities and attitudes of Iraqis. Finally, it might help if Americans and their leaders were to show less arrogance and more understanding of themselves and their place in history. Perhaps more than any other people, Americans display a consistent amnesia concerning their own past, as well as the history of those around them.
 
Navy Pride said:
Yes your right the pedophile and child molestor was one of those inspectors that said it after Saddam paid him $400,000. :roll:

Get a frigging clue...
Do you even know who the inspectors were?
A number of them were handpicked by the US and included a US marine.

I'd ask you to put up (evidence) or shut up (w/ the unsubtantiated claims), but I know you're very unlikely to do either, so I'll skip that part.
 
AllAmericanRageJunky said:
Ah yes I am sure the Saddam paid off ever weapons inspector that came through there and said "there is nothing here".

Boy you sure are good at getting off topic and cowardly avoiding questions.


He paid off the pedophile Scott Ritter.......
 
Simon W. Moon said:
Do you even know who the inspectors were?
A number of them were handpicked by the US and included a US marine.

I'd ask you to put up (evidence) or shut up (w/ the unsubtantiated claims), but I know you're very unlikely to do either, so I'll skip that part.

You ever hear of Scott Ritter?
 
quietrage said:
No I have not, can you give a website about him and your proof.

Google seems to be working all right.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Ritter

"I think the danger right now is that without effective inspections, without effective monitoring, Iraq can in a very short period of time measured in months, reconstitute chemical and biological weapons, long-range ballistic missiles to deliver these weapons, and even certain aspects of their nuclear weaponization program"--Scott Ritter after getting kicked out of Iraq.



"In 2000 he made a documentary In Shifting Sands on the effects of the sanctions on Iraq. Ritter’s documentary was financed in part by Detroit businessman Shakir al Khafaji. Al-Khafaji gave Ritter $400,000 has admitted being awarded over one million dollars in oil allocations during the UN oil-for-food program."


He alternately did some work for Fox News and Al-Jazeera.


Interesting....
 
Navy Pride said:
He paid off the pedophile Scott Ritter.......

look are you a coward or just mentally retarded? I asked you a question, and so far you are either too stupid to answer it, or too afraid that you'll expose you don't have a decent answer.
 
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Watching navypride in this thread, is sadly a microcosm of all republican thought. First, he start off trying to refute the argument. Then, when presented with hard facts, says "youre not making sense, its not worth refuting". Then when presented with even more facts, resorts to rhetoric and namecalling, and just straight out lunacy. Comparing Iraq to Japan in WWII?
Against the Iraq war specifically because we hate the president, and nothing more? How ridiculous. If thats what you really think, you are no patriot, sir, you are merely a poser.

a true patriot doesnt just fight because his nation told him to. a true patriot, especially an american patriot, realizes that all governments are inherently corrupt (which is why we have the spereation of powers, ever heard of that? The republicans in power now havent) and must be watched. a true patriot fights FOR his country, because it is in danger, which clearly is not the case here - saddam was not a danger to us.

Nor were we just "upholding international law": if we want to start enforcing UN regulations, why dont we start with Israel? They have the most resolutions and condemnations from the UN in the free world, and hell, even more than Red China.

All serviceman have taken an oath to defend our country from enemies foreign and domestic - but yet they are all in some godforsaken desert halfway across the globe while illegals and operatives flood across our unprotected borders. re-examine what the military is here for and why it is not being used for that purpose.

a true patriot knows the quote "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance", and sadly, today, americans are asleep at the wheel.
 
porkchopexpress said:
Watching navypride in this thread, is sadly a microcosm of all republican thought. First, he start off trying to refute the argument. Then, when presented with hard facts, says "youre not making sense, its not worth refuting". Then when presented with even more facts, resorts to rhetoric and namecalling, and just straight out lunacy. Comparing Iraq to Japan in WWII?
Against the Iraq war specifically because we hate the president, and nothing more? How ridiculous. If thats what you really think, you are no patriot, sir, you are merely a poser.

a true patriot doesnt just fight because his nation told him to. a true patriot, especially an american patriot, realizes that all governments are inherently corrupt (which is why we have the spereation of powers, ever heard of that? The republicans in power now havent) and must be watched. a true patriot fights FOR his country, because it is in danger, which clearly is not the case here - saddam was not a danger to us.

Nor were we just "upholding international law": if we want to start enforcing UN regulations, why dont we start with Israel? They have the most resolutions and condemnations from the UN in the free world, and hell, even more than Red China.

All serviceman have taken an oath to defend our country from enemies foreign and domestic - but yet they are all in some godforsaken desert halfway across the globe while illegals and operatives flood across our unprotected borders. re-examine what the military is here for and why it is not being used for that purpose.

a true patriot knows the quote "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance", and sadly, today, americans are asleep at the wheel.

I smell a whole bunch of racism and antisemitic comments here so I won't dignify them with a response
 
AllAmericanRageJunky said:
look are you a coward or just mentally retarded? I asked you a question, and so far you are either too stupid to answer it, or too afraid that you'll expose you don't have a decent answer.

I will ignore the name calling and insults and just consider the source.....

Your question was what my friend?
 
Navy Pride said:
I will ignore the name calling and insults and just consider the source.....

Your question was what my friend?

the question was "do you acknowledge that it is possible to examine intelligence which made a case for war, while still waging said war?"

and when you're done with that one I'll answer yours (off topic as it is) my good man. ;)
 
AllAmericanRageJunky said:
look are you a coward or just mentally retarded?
[mod mode]
Can the personal attacks. If you want to discuss your personal feelings for Navy Pride, open a thread in The Basement.
[/mod mode]
 
Simon W. Moon said:
[mod mode]
Can the personal attacks. If you want to discuss your personal feelings for Navy Pride, open a thread in The Basement.
[/mod mode]

I think it was a fair question. Considering some of the "hate speech" you see in peoples signatures on this sight my comment was down right friendly.
 
AllAmericanRageJunky said:
the question was "do you acknowledge that it is possible to examine intelligence which made a case for war, while still waging said war?"

and when you're done with that one I'll answer yours (off topic as it is) my good man. ;)


I think the intelligence was examined and the British to this day still stick by it........That said one thing for sure and even a partisan like you would have to admit Saddam will never be a threat to terrorize his neighbors or any other country with WOMD again because if for no other reason he will be dead......
 
AllAmericanRageJunky said:
I think it was a fair question.
I suspected as much. That's why I thought to let you otherwise.


AllAmericanRageJunky said:
Considering some of the "hate speech" yousee in peoples signatures on this sight my comment was down rightfriendly.
I have signatures turned off in my user controlpanel, so I don't see them. If there's something that's offensive orwhatnot, please send a private message to me or any other mod with thespecific example.
Also, there's a small "Report Bad Post" button in the lower left handside of each post. Use this button to report spam, advertisingmessages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts.
 
Navy Pride said:
I think the intelligence was examined and the British to this day still stick by it........That said one thing for sure and even a partisan like you would have to admit Saddam will never be a threat to terrorize his neighbors or any other country with WOMD again because if for no other reason he will be dead......

And on the topic of whether it is possible to examin intelegence which lead to a war while said war is still occureing? Because that was what my question was about, not whether the British stand by it, and not whether Saddam is a threat to anyone these days.

Still waiting...
 
Simon W. Moon said:
I have signatures turned off in my user controlpanel, so I don't see them. If there's something that's offensive orwhatnot, please send a private message to me or any other mod with thespecific example.
Also, there's a small "Report Bad Post" button in the lower left handside of each post. Use this button to report spam, advertisingmessages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts.

don't get me wrong I am not trying to complain. I'm not going to sit here and cry about "how rude and meeny weeny everyone is". I was just trying to point out that my post wasn't exactly groundbreaking in it's forwardness.
 
stsburns said:
Since when did CNN become a independent news. The last time I checked it was never! Also you failed to mention that the National Geographic Channel is doing a show on what happened on 9/11. As for CNN, they can read my "few details about yourself" in my User CP! :mrgreen:
And what does the Iraq war have to do with 9-11? NOTHING, so why are you bringing it up?

Surely you're not trying to say that Iraq & 9-11 are connected? :rofl
 
AllAmericanRageJunky said:
I was just trying to point out that mypost wasn't exactly groundbreaking in it's forwardness.
I'mwell aware of this lamentable fact. I didn't mean to give theimpression that I thought it was the first such post.
 
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