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Creationism vs. Flat Earth: Which belief is more irrational?

Gordy327

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"If your personal beliefs deny what is objectively true about the world, then they're more accurately called personal delusions." ---Neil deGrasse Tyson

Creationism and flat Earth beliefs are both irrational beliefs, usually based on nothing more than dogma, willful ignorance, or emotional dependency. Both beliefs fly in the face of scientific knowledge and understanding, and require a suspension of rational and critical thinking, not to mention quite a cognitive dissonance. As absurd as they are, which is the more irrational belief? Let's compare them in three categories and determine a "winner."

Round 1: core tenets.

Creationism is basically the belief that God created everything as is; the universe, Earth, and humans (and other species) as we are. It generally ignores sound scientific principles like evolution and adheres to an often literal interpretation of the bible. Typically, Young Earth Creationists (YEC) believe the Earth is roughly less than 10,000 years old while Old Earth Creationists (OEC) allow for an Earth to be in the millions or even billions of years old (God still created everything in OEC, but he just let things run on automatic for awhile). Creationism has been historically, and continues to be, a popular belief.

The Flat Earth belief posits that the Earth itself is not rounded like a sphere, but is actually flat (although it can also be a flat disk to give the appearance of roundness). Flat earth adherents reject any claims of a spherical Earth and shrug off any proof to the contrary as false, misleading, and even as conspiracies meant to fool people. They may even refer to the bible to reason that the earth is flat. However, while followers of either belief might strongly adhere to their belief, there is a segment of creationists (the OEC) who allow for some injection of established scientific principles with regard to the age of the earth or evolution (although God is still the root cause of everything). Therefore, Flat Earth narrowly edges out over creationism. Winner Round 1: Flat Earth.

Round 2: Adherents/popularity

While the idea of a flat earth dates back many centuries, the ancient Greeks (among other societies) developed the concept of a spherical earth. Believers of a flat earth would continue until even modern times. Today, there is even a Flat Earth Society. However, until modern times with social media, the idea of a flat earth never gained too much traction. Sure there may have been surges in the popularity or belief of a flat earth, but it always seemed more of an afterthought. Social media has been a tool for flat earthers to expose themselves and try to convince others of their views or make the idea of a flat earth more mainstream, especially among millennials. But they always seem more willing to "hide in the shadows" as it were. The current iteration of the Flat Earth Society has approximately 500 members, although there are likely more people who are flat earthers.

Creationism, on the other hand, has likely far more numbers of adherents. A gallup poll several years ago indicated that 4 in 10 Americans (not counting other countries) subscribe to a creationist belief. That's roughly 125 million Americans. That's also a very sad commentary on our society too. Creationists win this round by sheer numbers alone. Winner round 2: Creationists.
---Continued---
 

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---Continued---

Round 3: Evidence/proof

I use the terms "evidence" and "proof" very loosely in this context, as there is no objective, valid evidence/proof of either creationism or a flat earth. But both sides will certainly try to propose their idea of proof, which is often based on subjective reasoning, personal beliefs (or the regurgitation of another's beliefs or teachings), or opinions. Both sides also show a profound lack of understanding of actual science when showing their proof. Creationists will often cite "proof" such as the lack of transitional fossils, the limited time available which negates evolution, or just simply referring to the bible as the be all, end all authority on the matter (and reject anything else outright). In other words, "God did it, the bible says so, I believe it. 'Nuff said!"

Flat earthers might claim the Antarctic is actually an ice wall which prevents anyone from "falling over the edge of the world. Gravity is an illusion and the concept of a spherical earth is a conspiracy by scientific organizations (such as NASA). Their "proof" is often cryptic or just a great exercise in mental gymnastics. Flat earthers might also use scripture as "proof." But we do have proof of a spherical earth: images/videos from space, horizon curvature, satellite positioning, ect.. So the idea of a flat earth is discredited outright. Creationism too for that matter. However, what puts flat earthers ahead on this one is their often humorous or face-palm inducing attempts to rationalize their position. Therefore, Winner round 3: Flat Earth.

By a score of 2-1, the winner (or loser depending on your perspective) is Flat Earth.
 

Lisa

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Its kind of one in the same. The belief in the firmament is also a religious idea.Ignorant gullible people want easy answers to complex problems, when viewed from the mindset of the 10th century. Some people have never advanced from that period.


Ezekiel 10:1 | View whole chapter | See verse in context Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.

Ezekiel 1:25 | View whole chapter | See verse in context And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.

Ezekiel 1:22 | View whole chapter | See verse in context And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.

I wish TiG was here.
 

MamboDervish

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---Continued---

Round 3: Evidence/proof

I use the terms "evidence" and "proof" very loosely in this context, as there is no objective, valid evidence/proof of either creationism or a flat earth. But both sides will certainly try to propose their idea of proof, which is often based on subjective reasoning, personal beliefs (or the regurgitation of another's beliefs or teachings), or opinions. Both sides also show a profound lack of understanding of actual science when showing their proof. Creationists will often cite "proof" such as the lack of transitional fossils, the limited time available which negates evolution, or just simply referring to the bible as the be all, end all authority on the matter (and reject anything else outright). In other words, "God did it, the bible says so, I believe it. 'Nuff said!"

Flat earthers might claim the Antarctic is actually an ice wall which prevents anyone from "falling over the edge of the world. Gravity is an illusion and the concept of a spherical earth is a conspiracy by scientific organizations (such as NASA). Their "proof" is often cryptic or just a great exercise in mental gymnastics. Flat earthers might also use scripture as "proof." But we do have proof of a spherical earth: images/videos from space, horizon curvature, satellite positioning, ect.. So the idea of a flat earth is discredited outright. Creationism too for that matter. However, what puts flat earthers ahead on this one is their often humorous or face-palm inducing attempts to rationalize their position. Therefore, Winner round 3: Flat Earth.

By a score of 2-1, the winner (or loser depending on your perspective) is Flat Earth.
It's a funny question.
I don't even believe in Flat Earthers. I suspect that those who profess to being one are liars. Sure, they might put up all kinds of argumentative smoke screens, but I believe they are simply knee-jerk contrarians who get off on pushing educated people's buttons for it's own sake.

Creationists are another matter. Their thoroughly brainwashed inculcation into adherence to the hollow and flawed cosmology of ancient texts puts them in a completely different category than the wink-and-a-nod arguments of a Flat Earth ideology. Strict creationists have willfully painted themselves into a scriptual corner, from which there is no escape without tracking a trail of sticky wet paint, everywhere their argument attempts to go.
 

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I wonder if it is possible to be both a flat earther and a creationist?

Be a real target to have someone show up on a debate site with that as a claim.
 

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Easy.



Flat Earth. It's absurdly easy to demonstrate false.

With creationism, you have more trouble resulting from the simple fact that given how Earth and life on it works, we're always going to be missing all but a tiny sliver of the record. Plus, evolution requires a person to have the capacity to think about how probability applied over time works. Without that, one could not grasp that all evolution says is that we can expect that on average, the traits most likely to lead to survival in a given situation will appear in those creatures who live in those situations.

It's important to put that way. I regularly see people talk about evolution as if it's something to do with life finding a way. Evolution is the biggest trial and error experiment to exist (unless the multiverse as we theorize it is someone else's experiment; turtles all the way down, that kind of rabbit hole).
 
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SkyChief

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I wonder if it is possible to be both a flat earther and a creationist?

Be a real target to have someone show up on a debate site with that as a claim.
Many creationists are also Flat Earthers.

The New Testament states that the Earth is flat (in a roundabout way):

Matthew 4 : 8,9 KJV

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

The only way it could be possible for Jesus to see "all the kingdoms of the world" is if the Earth was/is flat.
 

Elora

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Many creationists are Flat Earthers.

The New Testament states that the Earth is flat - - in a roundabout way:

Matthew 4 : 8,9 KJV

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

The only way it could be possible for Jesus to see "all the kingdoms of the world" is if the Earth was/is flat.
To tempt Jesus, “the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.” (Matthew 4:8) Some claim that this Bible account teaches that the entire world is visible from a single spot on a flat earth. However, the “unusually high mountain” in this account seems to be a metaphor and not a physical location. Consider why this conclusion is reasonable.
  • There is no literal mountain on earth from which all the kingdoms of the world are visible.
  • The Devil showed Jesus not only all the kingdoms but also “their glory.” Such details could not be seen from a great distance, so it seems that the Devil used some sort of vision to show these to Jesus. This could be similar to the way a person uses a projector and a screen to show someone pictures of various places on earth.
  • The parallel account at Luke 4:5 says that the Devil showed Jesus “all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time,” which would not be possible through normal human vision. This implies that the Devil presented this temptation to Jesus through some means other than literal human sight.
The Bible refers to God as the “One who dwells above the circle of the earth.” (Isaiah 40:22) Some reference works allow for the possibility that the word here rendered “circle” could mean a sphere, although not all scholars agree on this point. In any case, the Bible does not support the idea of a flat earth.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/502018142?q=matthew+4:8,9&p=sen
 

SkyChief

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The Bible refers to God as the “One who dwells above the circle of the earth.” (Isaiah 40:22) Some reference works allow for the possibility that the word here rendered “circle” could mean a sphere, although not all scholars agree on this point. In any case, the Bible does not support the idea of a flat earth.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/502018142?q=matthew+4:8,9&p=sen
A circle is a circle. A sphere is a sphere.

If Isaiah meant sphere, why did he write circle? Is it reasonable for us to believe that Isaiah actually had no concept of a sphere?
 

lemmiwinx

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God created the Flat Earth and dinosaurs and then rested for a day. Later He got distracted so here we are now. I wish He'd come back and punish all the unbelievers.
 

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Many creationists are also Flat Earthers.

The New Testament states that the Earth is flat (in a roundabout way):

Matthew 4 : 8,9 KJV

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

The only way it could be possible for Jesus to see "all the kingdoms of the world" is if the Earth was/is flat.
Stretching the metaphor a bit with that one. Any kingdom at that time was "as far as the eye can see". It simply meant that controlling vast areas is difficult.
 

Elora

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Stretching the metaphor a bit with that one. Any kingdom at that time was "as far as the eye can see". It simply meant that controlling vast areas is difficult.
But did ya ever consider this...all the kingdoms of the earth do belong to Satan...Jesus did not dispute that...
 

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But did ya ever consider this...all the kingdoms of the earth do belong to Satan...Jesus did not dispute that...
No more than I would consider that the all the world belongs to the empire and jedi's dispute that.

Not much of an argument to someone who dismisses your jesus as a fantasy
 

Elora

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No more than I would consider that the all the world belongs to the empire and jedi's dispute that.

Not much of an argument to someone who dismisses your jesus as a fantasy
Yeah, but cha gotta admit, it sure would explain a whole lotta things...
 

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---Continued---

Round 3: Evidence/proof

I use the terms "evidence" and "proof" very loosely in this context, as there is no objective, valid evidence/proof of either creationism or a flat earth. But both sides will certainly try to propose their idea of proof, which is often based on subjective reasoning, personal beliefs (or the regurgitation of another's beliefs or teachings), or opinions. Both sides also show a profound lack of understanding of actual science when showing their proof. Creationists will often cite "proof" such as the lack of transitional fossils, the limited time available which negates evolution, or just simply referring to the bible as the be all, end all authority on the matter (and reject anything else outright). In other words, "God did it, the bible says so, I believe it. 'Nuff said!"

Flat earthers might claim the Antarctic is actually an ice wall which prevents anyone from "falling over the edge of the world. Gravity is an illusion and the concept of a spherical earth is a conspiracy by scientific organizations (such as NASA). Their "proof" is often cryptic or just a great exercise in mental gymnastics. Flat earthers might also use scripture as "proof." But we do have proof of a spherical earth: images/videos from space, horizon curvature, satellite positioning, ect.. So the idea of a flat earth is discredited outright. Creationism too for that matter. However, what puts flat earthers ahead on this one is their often humorous or face-palm inducing attempts to rationalize their position. Therefore, Winner round 3: Flat Earth.

By a score of 2-1, the winner (or loser depending on your perspective) is Flat Earth.
Something is either rational or not . I think saying a proposition is more, or less, rational than another is pointless.
 

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Yeah, but cha gotta admit, it sure would explain a whole lotta things...
No I do not need to admit that at all. In fact quite the opposite. There are many questions to be asked about a god that no one has answers for. All your belief in an imaginary friend does is raise more questions.
 

Elora

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No I do not need to admit that at all. In fact quite the opposite. There are many questions to be asked about a god that no one has answers for. All your belief in an imaginary friend does is raise more questions.
If politics is not ruled by the devil, I'll eat my hat...😊
 

soylentgreen

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If politics is not ruled by the devil, I'll eat my hat...😊
In politics the devil is in the detail, not in running it.

Besides that is just a cop out . Like demanding if one priest is a peadophile then all of them must be.
 

Elora

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In politics the devil is in the detail, not in running it.

Besides that is just a cop out . Like demanding if one priest is a peadophile then all of them must be.
lol...find me one who's not...
 

Gordy327

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It's a funny question.
I don't even believe in Flat Earthers. I suspect that those who profess to being one are liars. Sure, they might put up all kinds of argumentative smoke screens, but I believe they are simply knee-jerk contrarians who get off on pushing educated people's buttons for it's own sake.

Creationists are another matter. Their thoroughly brainwashed inculcation into adherence to the hollow and flawed cosmology of ancient texts puts them in a completely different category than the wink-and-a-nod arguments of a Flat Earth ideology. Strict creationists have willfully painted themselves into a scriptual corner, from which there is no escape without tracking a trail of sticky wet paint, everywhere their argument attempts to go.
I place them in the same general camp.
 

ttwtt78640

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To tempt Jesus, “the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.” (Matthew 4:8) Some claim that this Bible account teaches that the entire world is visible from a single spot on a flat earth. However, the “unusually high mountain” in this account seems to be a metaphor and not a physical location. Consider why this conclusion is reasonable.
  • There is no literal mountain on earth from which all the kingdoms of the world are visible.
  • The Devil showed Jesus not only all the kingdoms but also “their glory.” Such details could not be seen from a great distance, so it seems that the Devil used some sort of vision to show these to Jesus. This could be similar to the way a person uses a projector and a screen to show someone pictures of various places on earth.
  • The parallel account at Luke 4:5 says that the Devil showed Jesus “all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time,” which would not be possible through normal human vision. This implies that the Devil presented this temptation to Jesus through some means other than literal human sight.
The Bible refers to God as the “One who dwells above the circle of the earth.” (Isaiah 40:22) Some reference works allow for the possibility that the word here rendered “circle” could mean a sphere, although not all scholars agree on this point. In any case, the Bible does not support the idea of a flat earth.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/502018142?q=matthew+4:8,9&p=sen

Circle defines a flat (two dimensional) object, sphere defines a round (three dimensional) object. Playing the what was “possibly meant” game allows for very wide interpretation of biblical texts.

 

Gordy327

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Its kind of one in the same. The belief in the firmament is also a religious idea.Ignorant gullible people want easy answers to complex problems, when viewed from the mindset of the 10th century. Some people have never advanced from that period.




I wish TiG was here.
I wish he were here too. You need to convince him to come over.
 
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