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Could Germany Have Won WWII?[W:513]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

If Germany had waited, built heavy bombers, etc... they would have had a shot. More, of course...

Germany invaded precisely because they didnt intend for Russia to develop the heavy industry it would require to thwart them. Waiting would not have benefited them.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Due to our unrestricted bombing campaigns that all but wiped out Germany's infrastructure. Without that, without us defeating them in North Africa and then pushing them out of Italy... Russia would clearly have had their asses handed to them.

Yes, Im certain the 30% of the war that the allies fought helped...
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Yes, Im certain the 30% of the war that the allies fought helped...
30%?.........hmm. Interesting figure. I'm curious as to how you arrived at it. Would that "30% of the war fought by the Allies" include: crippling the German Luftwaffe or the German Navy and blockading German ports. Or does it include driving the Germans out of Africa and Western Europe? Does that 30% also include the conquest of Italy and securing the Mediterranean from further German naval threats? Or does it include taking on German subs and battleships in the North Atlantic? Oh, and does that 30% include island-hopping campaigns against the Japs and defeating the mighty Japanese fleet as well as the Japanese aerial forces?

Just wondering. But I'm sure the mighty Red Army could have easily dealt with all of these challenges on their own............without the Allies contributing their measley "30%" of the fighting. :shrug:
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

30%?.........hmm. Interesting figure. I'm curious as to how you arrived at it. Would that "30% of the war fought by the Allies" include: crippling the German Luftwaffe or the German Navy and blockading German ports. Or does it include driving the Germans out of Africa and Western Europe? Does that 30% also include the conquest of Italy and securing the Mediterranean from further German naval threats? Or does it include taking on German subs and battleships in the North Atlantic? Oh, and does that 30% include island-hopping campaigns against the Japs and defeating the mighty Japanese fleet as well as the Japanese aerial forces?

Just wondering. But I'm sure the mighty Red Army could have easily dealt with all of these challenges on their own............without the Allies contributing their measley "30%" of the fighting. :shrug:

The Red Army bore the brutality of the Wehrmacht. 70% of all German military forces were at the Eastern Front, and much more resources were spent at the Eastern Front than at the Western Front.
The Western Allies did help, we're not saying that they didn't, but it's a fact that the Soviet Union was the one that helped most to defeat Germany.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Germany invaded precisely because they didnt intend for Russia to develop the heavy industry it would require to thwart them. Waiting would not have benefited them.

There is speculation that Stalin himself would have invaded Germany in 1942, just one year later than Operation Barbarossa. Hitler nor Stalin had any delusions about the stability of the pact, there were too many ideological, historical differences between the two, and border violations between the two countries were constant
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Germany invaded precisely because they didnt intend for Russia to develop the heavy industry it would require to thwart them. Waiting would not have benefited them.

How do you know? How does anybody know?

Maybe Hitler would have listened to his generals more. Within just a few years they had the V-2 and jet fighters. There is no way that the Soviets were anywhere near that.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

But surely those living in the other two thirds could still cause a lot of trouble?

Not if most of them were dead.

How much trouble did Eastern Europe cause when the Soviets took control of everything behind the Iron Curtain. Not much, huh?
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Not to mention that the reserves and the soldiers in the Siberian divisions were elite soldiers of the Red Army. It was about the 12 Siberian divisions that arrived in Moscow that changed the tide and pushed the Germans off the suburbs of Moscow. They were equipped with excellent snow gear, skis, modern T-34s, etc...

Reserve units are never made up elite soldiers, in any army.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

The Red Army bore the brutality of the Wehrmacht. 70% of all German military forces were at the Eastern Front, and much more resources were spent at the Eastern Front than at the Western Front.
The Western Allies did help, we're not saying that they didn't, but it's a fact that the Soviet Union was the one that helped most to defeat Germany.

And, the Red Army was damn near crushed. Just imagine if the other 30% of the Wehrmacht had been deployed to the Eastern Front.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

The Red Army bore the brutality of the Wehrmacht. 70% of all German military forces were at the Eastern Front, and much more resources were spent at the Eastern Front than at the Western Front.
The Western Allies did help, we're not saying that they didn't, but it's a fact that the Soviet Union was the one that helped most to defeat Germany.
But his comment didn't say just that. He said "the 30% of the WAR that the Allies fought..." The WAR was much broader than just the Eastern Front in Europe and the challenges of winning it, not simply limited to winning that front alone. :shrug:
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Reserve units are never made up elite soldiers, in any army.

I should rephrase that.
There were many reserves in Siberia, along with elite soldiers equipped for winter war, such as skis, Katyusha rockets, and T-34s. Many were veterans from that Russia-Japanese war and other encounters with Asiatic enemies
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

I should rephrase that.
There were many reserves in Siberia, along with elite soldiers equipped for winter war, such as skis, Katyusha rockets, and T-34s. Many were veterans from that Russia-Japanese war and other encounters with Asiatic enemies

The Russo-Japanese war of 1905, you mean? I doubt there were very many vets from that war who were fit to fight in WW2. They would have been 53+ years old by 1940.

Not to mention, the Russians got served up by the Japanese. The sad part is, the Japanese were outnumbered like, 5 to 1.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

The Russo-Japanese war of 1905, you mean? I doubt there were very many vets from that war who were fit to fight in WW2. They would have been 53+ years old by 1940.

Not to mention, the Russians got served up by the Japanese. The sad part is, the Japanese were outnumbered like, 5 to 1.

Sorry, must have mistaken.
I did read somewhere in a history book that's probably got thrown out by my wife (lol) that many active Siberian units were composed of veterans, and I remember it was a thick book, the kind that's written by an old, stuffy historian, so it's probably true :lol:
Seriously though, perhaps there were other conflicts in which such Siberian units were mobilized for. I'm not so sure, it made sense when I read it, because there were many Asiatic conflicts that the Soviet Union was involved in at that time
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Not if most of them were dead.

How much trouble did Eastern Europe cause when the Soviets took control of everything behind the Iron Curtain. Not much, huh?

Well not alot but that's hardly comparable considering that the Soviet went in, occupied these countries and set up puppet governments. Something that the Soviets would not have to do according to you.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

I'm not sure, could be my high school education...

Let me know when you finish then and we can talk some more... 3 years to go? Right?
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

And, the Red Army was damn near crushed. Just imagine if the other 30% of the Wehrmacht had been deployed to the Eastern Front.

Of if they deployed them better... not engaging in Stalingrad, for instance. Gaining the oil fields instead. Deploying without attacking Poland, etc. ??
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Sorry, must have mistaken.
I did read somewhere in a history book that's probably got thrown out by my wife (lol) that many active Siberian units were composed of veterans, and I remember it was a thick book, the kind that's written by an old, stuffy historian, so it's probably true :lol:
Seriously though, perhaps there were other conflicts in which such Siberian units were mobilized for. I'm not so sure, it made sense when I read it, because there were many Asiatic conflicts that the Soviet Union was involved in at that time

Well, you were correct about the training of the Siberian troops. They were good and helped turn the tide... they just weren't veterans of a previous war, just verterans of the military.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Well, you were correct about the training of the Siberian troops. They were good and helped turn the tide... they just weren't veterans of a previous war, just verterans of the military.

Thanks for clearing it up.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Most people say that Hitler lost the war when he attacked Russia. Of cause attacking Russia while Britain was still in the war and thus having to fight on two fronts was foolish, Germany could have won the won in the east in 1941 if Hitler did not demand that army group center stop its march on Moscow, turn south and take Kiev. If left to drive on Moscow, army group center would have took the city and with it the hart of the USSSR.

yeah I think it is possible. There are many sci fi novels about what would have happened if he did and how he could have won.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

I always wonder why people don't instead look at, why did Hitler attack France and the West in the first place. Why did Germany not attack and do away with Russia first. Through Chzechoslovakia or their Ally, Romania? They could have amassed troops and attacked, tacking out Russia and then turning to the West. He could have completely ignored Poland for years and made a sneak attack on France. Essentially Island Hope around Europe. Solidify Italy as a power instead of seeing their pathetic army get their asses handed to them over and over. There are lots of ways that they could have done things much better.

You know, I had the same question as well. I was told many times to read "Mein Kampf" in the beginning stages and I'd see why. Well, I did finally read it and basically, he wanted revenge not only on France, but on Russia and anyone else that he believed was destroying Germany after WWI, which is straight from his mouth. I know it's a "taboo" book to read, however, you'll find some very interesting things in it. Also, I've read "12th SS" which is comprised of letters from the 12th SS guys as well as the allies. It tells things that we were never taught here in the U.S. and was a real eye opener. Also, "Blood Red Snow" written by a Wehrmacht machinegunner on the Eastern Front talks about what happened in Stalingrad and it's pretty crazy as well. And if you want to really go into WWI Germany's reason, read Erwin Rommels, "Infantry Tactics". It tells everything from the beginning to the end. You wouldn't believe it, but they almost won. Don't get me wrong, I read books on General George S. Patton, my idol, General "Chesty" Puller, and people like that as well. I just like reading both sides of the spectrum because there are two sides to every story.

By the way; if you read "12th SS" by Kurt Meyer, you'll see they wouldn't have won the war. They talk about it a lot because there were way too many mistakes, and the greatest of all; the allies had "false armies" set up in England. Germany expected way more Brigades to land than what actually did and they didn't believe the Normandy invasion was the real invasion, therefore leaving a lot of their troops in France to wait for "the real invasion." There was even a letter in the book from a Recon SS troop and he said when he looked at the sea, you couldn't see any of the water because there were ships that seemed to go over the horizon. He said he thought he counted over 10,000 ships, not an exaggeration. They didn't have enough ammunition or supplies to sustain the war. That's just a small piece of what they had to deal with.
 
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Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Of course, depending how you define winning.

1. Not have engaged in genocide of Jewish and more actively pursued the atomic bomb. It was on Einstein's urging - only after his sister taken to a concentration camp - that pacifist Einstein added his voice to the USA pursuing the atomic bomb. The treatment of Jews cost Gemany many scientists in general. Regardless, had Germany more pursued the atomic bomb they would have had it and with their V2s they could have won.

2. Develop a long range bomber and put their jet fighters into product when they could have, rather than wasting a year trying to develop the jet as a bomber. Lack of a long range bomber gave Russia immunity in mass production. If Germany had thrown the jet fighter into mass production when it first developed the airwar would have been quite differently.

3. Followed thru at Dunkirk with an armored ground attack against the UK troops and then including a high casualty lose invasion and defeat the UK. A fundamental mistake of Hilter was believing he could negotiate a peace with the UK, basically to divide up the world.
Casualties of Germans would have been high, but given the massive defeates and loses later the loses of the invasion would have been much less. With the UK out of the picture, the USA would have no landing base on the West and nearly all resources committed to the East (Russia). The UK lost more its heavy weapons at Dunkirk and was relatively unarmed. Lack of total air control would have mention high crossing casualties, but Germany has the forces then to lose to take the UK out of the picture - the only enemy left at the moment. Of course Germany should not have shifted to bombing English cities but instead maintained focus on the final destruction of the UK's dwindling airforce.

4. Not realistic, but not declaring war on the USA. This would not have stopped the USA supplying the UK, but it would have meant the public would have demanded war focus on Japan, not Germany.

5. Not been a total indecisive idiot in the invasion of Russia.

6. Avoided massive troop loses by not allowing generals to regroup/retreat when necessary.

7. Never have initiated conquest of North Africa at all and instead put all such resources to capturing the oil fields of Russia - which allied bombers could not have reached.

8. Accepted the initial attempts by Russian anti-Stalin troops and generals to side with German forces.

9. Convinced Japan not to attack Pearl Harbor. The Roosevelt was frozen by public anti-war sentiment until that moment.
 
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Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

yeah I think it is possible. There are many sci fi novels about what would have happened if he did and how he could have won.

Add something to the discussion except a few sci-fi novels (they're fiction, goddammit), and nothing that resembes or supports an idea or opinion
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Of course, depending how you define winning.

1. Not have engaged in genocide of Jewish and more actively pursued the atomic bomb. It was on Einstein's urging - only after his sister taken to a concentration camp - that pacifist Einstein added his voice to the USA pursuing the atomic bomb. The treatment of Jews cost Gemany many scientists in general. Regardless, had Germany more pursued the atomic bomb they would have had it and with their V2s they could have won.

2. Develop a long range bomber and put their jet fighters into product when they could have, rather than wasting a year trying to develop the jet as a bomber. Lack of a long range bomber gave Russia immunity in mass production. If Germany had thrown the jet fighter into mass production when it first developed the airwar would have been quite differently.

3. Followed thru at Dunkirk with an armored ground attack against the UK troops and then including a high casualty lose invasion and defeat the UK. A fundamental mistake of Hilter was believing he could negotiate a peace with the UK, basically to divide up the world.
Casualties of Germans would have been high, but given the massive defeates and loses later the loses of the invasion would have been much less. With the UK out of the picture, the USA would have no landing base on the West and nearly all resources committed to the East (Russia). The UK lost more its heavy weapons at Dunkirk and was relatively unarmed. Lack of total air control would have mention high crossing casualties, but Germany has the forces then to lose to take the UK out of the picture - the only enemy left at the moment. Of course Germany should not have shifted to bombing English cities but instead maintained focus on the final destruction of the UK's dwindling airforce.

4. Not realistic, but not declaring war on the USA. This would not have stopped the USA supplying the UK, but it would have meant the public would have demanded war focus on Japan, not Germany.

5. Not been a total indecisive idiot in the invasion of Russia.

6. Avoided massive troop loses by not allowing generals to regroup/retreat when necessary.

7. Never have initiated conquest of North Africa at all and instead put all such resources to capturing the oil fields of Russia - which allied bombers could not have reached.

8. Accepted the initial attempts by Russian anti-Stalin troops and generals to side with German forces.

9. Convinced Japan not to attack Pearl Harbor. The Roosevelt was frozen by public anti-war sentiment until that moment.

Response:
1. It is a great exaggeration about how close Hitler was to the atomic bomb. It would at least have taken another decade, and besides, Einstein was already planning to leave for the US long before his sister was imprisoned. Other scientists, even if they weren't Jews, were already targeted because of their free-thinking ideals.
2. Impossible. Their jet fighters could never have been mass-produced, for the same reason as to why so many of their great tanks were never mass-produced. Too little material, resources, labor, and time. In addition, jet fighters were hardly different from normal fighters that day, and developing faster bombers that goes by the speed of a jet would have taken at least 5 years. In addition, Russia already had industrial immunity. Most of their war factories and industrial complexes were moved to the Urals.
3. I agree, though casualties would have been low. They could have easily pincered them off from naval protection, and it would have been an easy job for the geniuses such as Guderian and Rommel.
You also misstated the reason for relaxing at Dunkirk. They believed a large resuce attempt to have been impossible, believed that they had plenty of time, and also wanted to conserve Guderian's armor for the drive to Paris.
The Kriegsmarine was in no shape to assemble a fleet to transport the troops necessary, let alone safely escort them. A German invasion would have been a logistical nightmare.
4. I agree with this
5. The Soviets were already bound to invade at 1942. As I mentioned, there were too many ideological and historical differences between the two, and both had no illusions about the stability of their pact. All he did was speed up the inevitable
6. I agree with this. Stalingrad in particular was downright delusional
7. Capturing oil fields sounds easy when its said, but when you have to bring in highly expensive and specialized equipment, repair the holes, bring in the personnel necessary, drill the hole again, and repair damages done to the oil fields, it would have taken about 2 years. In addition, the Germans had a reason to attack the Middle East: vital British economic assets were there, inluding the mentioned oil fields. The Soviet use of scorched earth policy also indicated that they would have burned down the oil fields if they were captured.
8. Never heard about this.
9. I agree, though Roosevelt wasn't frozen by isolationism. Lend-Lease already passed and there was a decisive interventionist national feeling in the US.
 
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