Could Germany Have Won WWII?[W:513]

[Tashah]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

None of these actions in Russia, taken individually, were the "turning point" in the war. Each mistake in Russia, taken individually, could have eventually been overcome by the Germans, but taken as a whole, it was THE DECSION itself to invade the USSR that was the turning point.

What you are doing is engaging in reductionist logic. If one examines the pre-war writings and speeches, it is clear that Hitler always intended to invade and conquer the Soviet Union. The Hitlerian rationale for this was two-fold... his doctrine of Lebensraum and the necessity to totally obliterate a dangerous enemy he identified as Jewish Bolshevism. If one reads the rationale behind the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, it is plainly obvious that this device was viewed strictly as a delay mechanism in order to set the proverbial table. From Mein Kampf forward, there was never a time when Hitler vacillated on invading the USSR. The only question was when. If this is a truism (and it is), then only Hitler's death could have averted this event. But the event happened, and historians are tasked with examining the event chronicles to determine why things happened they way they did.

To PSK and Tashah: Do you truly believe that IF German forces had captured Moscow, the campaign would have ended? Could, even the mighty German war machine have realistically put down Soviet resistance and held on to captured territories? Could the German supply chain have ever fully been able to sustain these occupying forces long term? If Mosocw had fallen, would the rest of the Russian population have simply "rolled over" and given in to Fascist rule? Russia was not Poland. I'm not certain that an attempted occupation of the USSR would have had the same outcome as the occupation of Poland. :shrug:

If Moscow had fallen, I believe neither Stalin nor the USSR could have recovered in the short time-frame necessary to avert total disaster.

And, BTW, regarding Tasha's avatar, I absolutely concur! If all Russian women had posteriors that were as remarkable as Tasha's, hell, I just might invade Russia myself. :thumbs:

My thanks for the very nice compliment ::::curtsy::::

 

[FluffyNinja]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

If one examines the pre-war writings and speeches, it is clear that Hitler always intended to invade and conquer the Soviet Union. The Hitlerian rationale for this was two-fold... his doctrine of Lebensraum and the necessity to totally obliterate a dangerous enemy he identified as Jewish Bolshevism. If one reads the rationale behind the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, it is plainly obvious that this device was viewed strictly as a delay mechanism in order to set the proverbial table. From Mein Kampf forward, there was never a time when Hitler vacillated on invading the USSR. The only question was when. If this is a truism (and it is), then only Hitler's death could have averted this event. But the event happened, and historians are tasked with examining the event chronicles to determine why things happened they way they did.

I would agree with everything here with one exception; I believe that there is a huge difference between "original intent" and the formulation of a specific military plan or the implementation of such. No doubt, we can deduce from Mein Kampf , the various pacts/alliances Hitler entered into, and from other of Hitler's writings that this was his intent. Unlike you, however, I will not concede that ONLY the Fuhrer's death could have averted this invasion. We coulod go back and forth with hypotheticals for days, but I will still stick by assertion that the the downfall of the Nazi Germany was marked by the ACTUAL implementation phase of Operation Barbarossa. The moment at which Hitler began to have grandiose dreams of conquering the Bolsheviks is quite irrelevant. The moment that an actual plan was set in motion; when manpower and equipment was allocated for it; this was the turning point.

 

[American]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

The bottomline is, NO, he couldn't have won the war. Even if he had defeated the Russians, he would have lost. The US was just getting its second wind by wars end, when everyone else was finished. The Russians bearly made it to Berlin. I know Germans who has Russian soldiers coming to their doors in Berlin begging for food. The US also had nukes. Trust me, Hitler wouldn't have made it under any scenario.

 

[mikeey]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

yes if the had that,no probs

mikeey

 

[mikeey]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

got it this time

 

[mikeey]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

American we where lucky,know dout about that,but thanks to u guys we made it.

thank you so much


mikeey

 

[Higgins86]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Something often overlooked as well is the initial reaction to the German invasion by regular Russian people. There are videos and pictures which show the Russian people welcoming the Nazi's who were to some liberating them from the oppressive Stalin regime. This was in a time where most Russians lived in fear after the 1930 purges and if the Nazi's had treated the Russians people with respect and acted as liberators they might have found the push to Moscow much easier. Instead they mass killed peasents, burned farms etc and of course this news spread throughout Russia and the rest is history.

 

[radcen]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

I don't think it was impossible to get Spain into the war, Hitler was just unwilling to give into franco's demand of food and ammo (fearing the german people would soon need it more). I think Spain could of made a big difference especially if they took back the rock! Would of helped Germany gain the upper hand in the Mediterranean and could of potentially cut off the allies supplies for the North Aftrica campaign.

I have never been sure how much Spain really would have helped them, but the geographic aspect you mention is a good point.

Something often overlooked as well is the initial reaction to the German invasion by regular Russian people. There are videos and pictures which show the Russian people welcoming the Nazi's who were to some liberating them from the oppressive Stalin regime. This was in a time where most Russians lived in fear after the 1930 purges and if the Nazi's had treated the Russians people with respect and acted as liberators they might have found the push to Moscow much easier. Instead they mass killed peasents, burned farms etc and of course this news spread throughout Russia and the rest is history.

The German were treated as liberators by many, and they totally blew that.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

The bottomline is, NO, he couldn't have won the war. Even if he had defeated the Russians, he would have lost. The US was just getting its second wind by wars end, when everyone else was finished. The Russians bearly made it to Berlin. I know Germans who has Russian soldiers coming to their doors in Berlin begging for food. The US also had nukes. Trust me, Hitler wouldn't have made it under any scenario.

Actually, defeating the Russians wouldve freed up the 70% or so of German war efforts that were on the eastern front.

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

I don't think it was impossible to get Spain into the war, Hitler was just unwilling to give into franco's demand of food and ammo (fearing the german people would soon need it more). I think Spain could of made a big difference especially if they took back the rock! Would of helped Germany gain the upper hand in the Mediterranean and could of potentially cut off the allies supplies for the North Aftrica campaign.

I agree that Spain could have helped in the North African campaign, but it would have been pretty much useless. It had gone through a civil war and methinks that its armed forces was small and insignificant compared to the Soviet Union, Germany, or the UK. It might be comparable to Italy, which it was not much of an ally but only a big burden. Hitler made it clear that Spain wouldn't have entered the war unless a clear winner emerged.

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Something often overlooked as well is the initial reaction to the German invasion by regular Russian people. There are videos and pictures which show the Russian people welcoming the Nazi's who were to some liberating them from the oppressive Stalin regime. This was in a time where most Russians lived in fear after the 1930 purges and if the Nazi's had treated the Russians people with respect and acted as liberators they might have found the push to Moscow much easier. Instead they mass killed peasents, burned farms etc and of course this news spread throughout Russia and the rest is history.

To be specific, the people in the territory that the Soviet Union recently conquered and the Germans captured (namely the Baltic States) were very friendly and embraced the Germans as liberators. However, on countries and races that has been dominated by the Soviet Union/Russians such as Ukraine or Belarus, they were very much opposed

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

What you are doing is engaging in reductionist logic. If one examines the pre-war writings and speeches, it is clear that Hitler always intended to invade and conquer the Soviet Union. The Hitlerian rationale for this was two-fold... his doctrine of Lebensraum and the necessity to totally obliterate a dangerous enemy he identified as Jewish Bolshevism. If one reads the rationale behind the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, it is plainly obvious that this device was viewed strictly as a delay mechanism in order to set the proverbial table. From Mein Kampf forward, there was never a time when Hitler vacillated on invading the USSR. The only question was when. If this is a truism (and it is), then only Hitler's death could have averted this event. But the event happened, and historians are tasked with examining the event chronicles to determine why things happened they way they did.


If Moscow had fallen, I believe neither Stalin nor the USSR could have recovered in the short time-frame necessary to avert total disaster.


My thanks for the very nice compliment ::::curtsy::::

There are differing opinions about whether the Soviet Union would have surrendered after the fall of Moscow, but I'm inclined to believe that it would have fallen. As I mentioned, Leningrad, Stalingrad, the Ukraine, virtually all of the country's economic assets and population centers were either being attacked or conquered.

I also concur that Hitler's intentions were clear. Although FluffyNinja has a point that Hitler only had vague intentions and no clear plan for conquering the Soviet Union in the early days such as shown in Mein Kampf, Hitler always despised Communism and the Soviet Union.
Despite the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, tensions between Germany and the Soviet Union were always tense. There is speculation that Stalin himself would have invaded in 1942, and ideological and political differences between the two countries were too strong.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Given soviet ideology, they likely wouldnt have surrendered until they didnt have the means to fight anymore. The german invasion was analogised in political speech and propaganda to Napoleons invasion of 1812.... or 18 whatever.

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Given soviet ideology, they likely wouldnt have surrendered until they didnt have the means to fight anymore. The german invasion was analogised in political speech and propaganda to Napoleons invasion of 1812.... or 18 whatever.

Yes, the Germans were very careful in avoiding the mistakes Napoleon made. They avoided most of his mistakes, but still made the two mistakes that brought down his and ultimately, their empire
1) The coldness of the Russian winter
2) The immense size of the Russian land

Later when they were losing, especially in hard-fought places such as Stalingrad and Moscow (well, technically, they didn't fight in Moscow, just in the outskirts), most of the men there were reading books from the French during the Napoleonic age, about how it was too much to fight in the Russian winter and land. Quite understandable

 

[MKULTRABOY]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Victory wouldve also been defined as taking the whozawhatsit oilfields rather than StalinGrad or Moscow.

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Victory wouldve also been defined as taking the Caucasus oilfields rather than StalinGrad or Moscow.

Edited, though I do like the original

 

[Higgins86]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Resistance Trailer - YouTube


this film looks pretty decent, set in the UK after D-day has failed.

 

[coolwalker]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Simple answer...yes they "could have" won the war, but they didn't. Heck, the French could have stopped the war but they were too chicken. What-if's and could-haves are silly questions. Had Patton not been murdered we probably wouldn't have had a Cold War. Had, could, would, should...whatever.

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Simple answer...yes they "could have" won the war, but they didn't. Heck, the French could have stopped the war but they were too chicken. What-if's and could-haves are silly questions. Had Patton not been murdered we probably wouldn't have had a Cold War. Had, could, would, should...whatever.

What a load of bull****. The French weren't chicken. They had inferior tactics compared to the Germans. Learn history before you comment on it. Ever heard of the Maginot Line?

 

[apdst]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Yes, the Germans were very careful in avoiding the mistakes Napoleon made. They avoided most of his mistakes, but still made the two mistakes that brought down his and ultimately, their empire
1) The coldness of the Russian winter
2) The immense size of the Russian land

Later when they were losing, especially in hard-fought places such as Stalingrad and Moscow (well, technically, they didn't fight in Moscow, just in the outskirts), most of the men there were reading books from the French during the Napoleonic age, about how it was too much to fight in the Russian winter and land. Quite understandable

It wasn't the Russian winter. The German line of communications became stretched too thin and became undefendible, although not as badly as Napolean, who expected to be in India by the time winter set in. Napolean expected to live off the land and left all his winter gear in France. He didn't expect the Russians to destroy all the forage.

 

[apdst]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

What a load of bull****. The French weren't chicken. They had inferior tactics compared to the Germans. Learn history before you comment on it. Ever heard of the Maginot Line?

Is that the same Maginot Line that was rendered useless, because the Germans simply, drove around it? Ever hear of the Ardennes?

The French weren't chicken. They were stupid, too.

 

[Jetboogieman]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

They were stupid

I'll give you that.

Gamelin was the epitamy of stupidity.

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Is that the same Maginot Line that was rendered useless, because the Germans simply, drove around it? Ever hear of the Ardennes?

The French weren't chicken. They were stupid, too.

I fully know and is aware of the details of how Blitzkrieg in France.
I'm saying that they were stupid, not chicken

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

I'll give you that.

Gamelin was the epitamy of stupidity.

He grossly underestimated the strength of the Wehrmacht.
The Allies actually outnumbered the Germans at the Western Front, and if they had invaded the SiegFried Line, the ODW estimated it would have taken them 2 weeks to take over Germany.
There were 144 Allied divisions, 36 of which were tied at the Maginot line, which left them 81 divisions, excluding reserves, to the German assault. The Germans, in comparison, had 75 divisions and 19 divisions deployed defensively against the Maginot line, excluding reserves.
Therefore, the Allies had more manpower, better equipment (French tanks were technologically superior to the German ones), but had inferior strategy, leadership, and training.

The most famous example of such inferior strategy was the Blitzkrieg. The Germans used thousands of tanks and mechanized infantry, which were highly mobile, to be supported by hundreds of Stuka dive-bombers. The Allies by comparison, still used the WWI outdated strategy of using individual tanks to support infantry divisions. The Germans, in addition, outflanked and surrounded the Allies using the pincer movement, cutting off supplies. Logistics, despite what most movies and games portray, are the most important parts of war and where most resources are spent.

Gamelin was actually a capable military leader. His war record in WWI is very distinguished, but he clung to the old strategy of WWI, hence the downfall. He, like so many other companies, people, and countries, had the fatal flaw of not being within the times. He was actually respected by the German high command also

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

It wasn't the Russian winter. The German line of communications became stretched too thin and became undefendible, although not as badly as Napolean, who expected to be in India by the time winter set in. Napolean expected to live off the land and left all his winter gear in France. He didn't expect the Russians to destroy all the forage.

Not communications, rather supplies. Hitler, like Napoleon, arrogantly believed the Russians and to be more broad, the Soviet Union to be easily captured. German projections predicted Germany to have conquered the Soviet Union within 10 weeks. That's why winter equipment and gear were left behind.
Hitler, also like Napoleon wanted to exploit the labor and resources left behind, which is the basics of Lebensraum that Hitler wanted to implement. However, he, like Napoleon didn't anticipate Russian use of scorched earth policy, and the removing of industrial facilities to the east also created problems.
Supply was one of the main reasons Hitler lost in the Eastern Front. Supply by train, which is the principle methods of moving supplies to the front, was highly problematic due to partisan attacks and the fact that Soviet rail gauges were wider than German ones. Supply by air was also problematic, due to the fact that Goring heavily overestimated the Luftwaffe's ability to supply and lied to Hitler about its abilities. This was shown the most clearly in the battle of Stalingrad