Convert or Die?

[Goshin]

There are some things I will not say or do, even if it costs me my life.



This used to be a more common trait among men.

 

[vasuderatorrent]

Pretending to convert is not the same as converting and you attempting to make it so is dishonest.

That's fair. If I were to use that logic I would alter the poll option as such:

Original options:
I'd convert.
I'd let them kill me.

New options based on maquiscat's insight:
I'd pretend to convert.
I'd let them kill me.

I would completely eliminate the convert option. Nobody is going to convert under duress. It's physically impossible.

I didn't realize it was necessary for me to differentiate. :doh Apparently it is. :roll:

 

[vasuderatorrent]

There are some things I will not say or do, even if it costs me my life.



This used to be a more common trait among men.

When it comes to even the most liberal Christian I think most men would take the same path that you are advocating. I don't think much has changed.

 

[vasuderatorrent]

To die in this manner is no more suicide than throwing yourself in front of a train to shove someone else out of the path.

I believe that you believe that. Very sad.

 

[vasuderatorrent]

Threaten to convert to them to Atheist, they'd take Islam over that.

You wouldn't be in a position to do that. There would be approximately 100 armed men determined that you accept Islam as the one true religion. You would be unarmed and alone. When would you find the opportunity to threaten them to convert to Atheist?

 

[William Rea]

You wouldn't be in a position to do that. There would be approximately 100 armed men determined that you accept Islam as the one true religion. You would be unarmed and alone. When would you find the opportunity to threaten them to convert to Atheist?

I know, it was a ridiculous idea wasn't it.

 

[nota bene]

There are some things I will not say or do, even if it costs me my life.

This used to be a more common trait among men.

And women of character too.

 

[vasuderatorrent]

Please read the quote I gave.

Which one? This one?

Of course, that's assuming that they'll take your conversion at face value. That's assuming that they won't suspect you've got your fingers crossed as you repeat some words. That's assuming they wouldn't be sadistic enough to make sport out of your "conversion."

You know what they say about assumptions.....

either way, none of this was presented in the OP. Adding addendums willy nilly calls for constant re-assessment.

 

[vasuderatorrent]

I know, it was a ridiculous idea wasn't it.

Why do you say that?

 

[vasuderatorrent]

Hypothetically since it's far fetched - if you were given the choice to convert to Christianity or die, which one would you choose?

Why is this so far fetched? My ancestors already made this decision. They converted to Christianity in order to live. I would do the same.

 

[vasuderatorrent]

I'd convert, and so would just about everyone else. Everyone's a hero on the internetz though.

History debunks your theory. Lots of idiots choose death. I think the people participating in this thread who say they would choose death would honestly choose death.

 

[vasuderatorrent]

You will win no single soul by pressure and violence,

2.6 Billion Christians worldwide and 1 Billion Muslims worldwide serves are pretty strong evidence against your claim. These religions have thrived, do thrive and will continue to thrive under pressure and violence. Maybe the 1st generation convert wasn't sincere but the 2nd generation and beyond were sincere followers who converted voluntarily to follow the only God they know. Billions of souls have been saved by the use of violence even if you do discount the 1st generation convert from your calculations.

 

[vasuderatorrent]

True enough. But we can look at how others have responded when put to the test and how the Holy Spirit responded to their need.

Someone I've thought of often in my life is Thomas Cramner, the Archbishop of Canterbury who recanted his faith but was nevertheless burned at the stake for treason and heresy by Mary Tudor. So remorseful was he that he held his right hand, the hand that signed his recantation, into the fire to be burned first.

I am confident that should I be put to the test too, I will be given whatever it is I need. I'll definitely be asking and seeking and knocking!

The story of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego comes to my mind. The story of David and Goliath comes to my mind. The story of Elijah challenging the prophets of Baal comes to my mind. God always save the lives of those who engage in suicide missions.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

History debunks your theory. Lots of idiots choose death. I think the people participating in this thread who say they would choose death would honestly choose death.

Eh... times are different.

People these days are a lot better at partitioning their faiths to only certain areas of their minds and lives, and coming up with reasons why whatever they're doing at the moment is permissible even when it's against their religion.

Reason? They have to be. What kept religion cemented so deeply in people's minds for so long was the complete lack of any knowledge. Everything in life had to be appealed to the gods, because there was nothing else -- no real medicine, no real historical knowledge, no real science of any kind.

People these days in the West have answers for a lot more things. While some choose to disavow certain aspects of or modern knowledge (see creationism), they very rarely do it with things that affect them personally. There aren't very many Western Christians these days who even follow the mandate not to masturbate, much less things like rejecting medicine in favor of exorcisms.

They can't avoid the inevitable conflicts between what we know to be true, and what religion tells them they should do or think. And most of the time, they will choose to go with what is known rather than religion, when they know that going with religion would cause a bad outcome for them (i.e. they know that illness is not caused by possession by Satan, and thus rejecting medicine would lead to their death, so they go with medicine).

We see the same thing even just on an ethical level. The brutal ethics of much of the bible are not followed today because we're just more ethically developed. And Christians find all kinds of justifications for shirking the ethics of their holy book.

So, they have gotten really good at finding ways to excuse themselves from certain religious beliefs or teachings, because they have to, and because it benefits them to do so. Reality is in constant conflict with their religion, with everything we know these days as a society. The effect is that they've got their religion over here in this side of their brain, and dealing with reality over there on the other side of their brain, and never the two shall meet.

Modern Christians of the West don't believe in exorcism over medicine, stoning, or gender chattlehood anymore, ya know? It's just intellectually and morally backwards, and there's no way for them to reconcile it with their improved modern knowledge. So they come up with some kind of reason in their mind why it's ok not to follow those beliefs anymore.

The kinds of people who are willing to die for their religion are generally coming from places where such knowledge and ethical development is in much shorter supply. There's no conflict, because they don't have any other form of knowledge besides religion. Their belief doesn't just occupy one half of their brain; it occupies all of it.

There are very few people in the West that is true of. I suspect there would be at least a few people who say they'd rather die, who wouldn't if they were really put in that situation. They'd come up with something -- "God knows my heart" or "I'll repent and be forgiven." Because somewhere inside themselves they know it's just not worth dying over.

 

[tosca1]

How hard is it to convert and then go out for an ice cream? The arrogance of the human spirit puzzles me.

I find this statement quite naïve.

I'm not sure if you adhere to any religion but I can readily assume that a person who takes his faith in God seriously and yet lacked the courage to choose death over conversion isn't going to enjoy ice cream for a very long time.

Furthermore, what is there to enjoy for people who'd been forced to betray their Gods and adhere to another belief?
To live under an oppressive authority? Especially when the religion forbids so many things, and the penalties are quite brutal.

Can you truly say you'll enjoy the ice cream?


Unless you truly believe and adhere to that oppressive religion, you can't convince me that you'll ever truly enjoy life again if you were forced to convert and live under that rule.

 

[tosca1]

History debunks your theory. Lots of idiots choose death. I think the people participating in this thread who say they would choose death would honestly choose death.

And then there were idiots too who'd chosen to collaborate with the enemies thinking they'll be better off.
Or those who underestimated the enemies, and paid the deadly price.

Every war have those little stories. History is full of those.

 

[vasuderatorrent]

There aren't very many Western Christians these days who even follow the mandate not to masturbate,

I have read the entire Bible twice and can't find any information on masturbation. Are you referring to the teachings of Saint Thomas Aquinas as a mandate? If not, what mandate are you referencing? I have searched for a Christian position on masturbation and have been unable to find it. I'm not calling you out. I have genuinely been unable to find the Christian position on masturbation. Thomas Aquinas teaches that anything that doesn't fulfill it's intended purpose is a sin against nature thus a sin against God. He asserts that sperm is intended for procreation thus should only be expelled in it's intended place only at an appropriate time sufficient for procreation. Anti-masturbation is consistent with this philosophy. The opinion of one man or the mandates of a specific philosophical system does not act as a scriptural mandate.

Are you referring the Roman Catholic church? If so, then oh. I get it. If not, where can the mandate opposing masturbation be found? By the way, I am not Catholic.

 

[tosca1]

2.6 Billion Christians worldwide and 1 Billion Muslims worldwide serves are pretty strong evidence against your claim. These religions have thrived, do thrive and will continue to thrive under pressure and violence. Maybe the 1st generation convert wasn't sincere but the 2nd generation and beyond were sincere followers who converted voluntarily to follow the only God they know. Billions of souls have been saved by the use of violence even if you do discount the 1st generation convert from your calculations.

How do Christians thrive under violence? Can you explain that please.

I tend to agree with German Guy. Forced conversion isn't real conversion.

You, yourself had said you'd play your oppressors the fool and PRETEND to convert. You think no one converted to Islam on the pretense?


Thousands of Muslims all over the world are converting to Christianity - WITHOUT PRESSURE!
A lot of them have not even talked to any missionaries - they claimed to have seen visions of JESUS!
So, if there is any "pressure" involved to their conversion - it's by Jesus.






Here is the thread, GOD AT WORK.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/197888-god-work.html

 

[SheWolf]

If you were given the choice to convert to Islam or die which one would you choose?

I would probably just convert and then covert back... who gives a ****. :lol:

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

I have read the entire Bible twice and can't find any information on masturbation. Are you referring to the teachings of Saint Thomas Aquinas as a mandate? If not, what mandate are you referencing? I have searched for a Christian position on masturbation and have been unable to find it. I'm not calling you out. I have genuinely been able to find the Christian position on marriage. Thomas Aquinas teaches that anything that doesn't fulfill it's intended purpose is a sin against nature thus a sin against God. He asserts that sperm is intended for procreation thus should only be expelled in it's intended place only at an appropriate time sufficient for procreation. Anti-masturbation is consistent with this philosophy. The opinion of one man or the mandates of a specific philosophical system does not act as a scriptural mandate.

Are you referring to the Roman Catholic church? If so, then oh. I get it.

Saying it's "consistent with that philosophy" is the same thing. The bible very clearly looks down on "spilling one's seed." I mean, god killed a dude over it, for heaven's sake.

Leviticus refers to a person being "unclean" for wasting their copulatory fluids. The repetition of "unclean" goes through most passages about sexual immorality. And masturbation, for any adult human being with a functioning hormonal system, is inherently lustful. Masturbation is quite clearly in the (admittedly very broad) category of sexual sin, for a variety of reasons. There may not be a commandment stating "thou shalt not masturbate," but it's pretty clearly implied to be a sexual failing and against god's design for sexual functioning.

And of course, yes, some branches of Christianity are very explicit about condemning it. And yet, I don't know a single Catholic who takes that seriously. Another incarnation of Western believers partitioning their belief to some things, but not others.

 

[X Factor]

I think they are very irresponsible. You only get one life. You should enjoy it and live it to the fullest.



Suicide is shameful, disgusting and heartbreaking to the survivors. I think these arrogant pricks need to convert and stop causing all this stupid drama. Convert and go out and eat an ice cream cone. There is no need to allow yourself to be tortured unnecessarily.

Spoken like somebody whose never stood up for anything in his life. I'm reminded why I tend to not read your posts.

 

[vasuderatorrent]

How do Christians thrive under violence? Can you explain that please.

Yes I can.

- it's by Jesus.

It's by Jesus.

 

[X Factor]

What, lie to some terrorists and say some words that mean nothing to me, or die?

Uh, I'll take lie to terrorists for 500, Alex. Are there seriously people who'd rather die than just repeat some words?

Then I'd leave, being all alive and stuff and since nothing in the OP says I have to stay there, and continue to be an atheist who rallies against extremism.

In other words, nothing in my life would change at all.

For some of us, what we believe really matters to us. Sure, if I had no strong beliefs, it'd be easy to say anything but to turn my back on Who I know to be the Messiah would be a major deal. Not saying I wouldn't take a cowardly way out, I probably would just as Peter did, but I sure respect those who choose death over cowering.

 

[X Factor]

Convert to Islam.

Then again, i recognise that converting to Islam doesn't automatically make someone an idiotic extremist. The only way you could come to that conclusion is if you are dumb enough to ignore the millions of peaceful Muslims in the world or don't trust that you won't turn extremist yourself and turn to the dark side.

That completely misses the point. It's not about whether the thing you're being forced to convert to is good or bad, it's about your own beliefs.

Anyone who would chose death obviously doesn't value their life very much.

That's not really fair, Serenity. Some people just may think life at the expense of turning their back on who they understand to be the Son of God is not worth it. Good thing Jesus valued His life so little that He layed it down for us.

Only here could a scenario where someone is faced with the choice to convert or die could those who are faced with that "choice" actually be the ones who are the bad guys for failing to chose Islam. :roll:

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

For some of us, what we believe really matters to us. Sure, if I had no strong beliefs, it'd be easy to say anything but to turn my back on Who I know to be the Messiah would be a major deal. Not saying I wouldn't take a cowardly way out, I probably would just as Peter did, but I sure respect those who choose death over cowering.

Well, let's be clear. Not believing in a deity does not mean one has "no strong beliefs."

There are plenty of things I think are worth dying for. This just ain't one of them.

And were I to imagine a deity -- a being of ultimate wisdom and power who understands the complexity of being human -- I really can't imagine why someone would be punished for this. It seems very petty and immature to put more stock in meaningless words said under coercion than in their real beliefs and actions. It seems jealous and selfish to prefer the person experience suffering and death instead of saying some meaningless words.

That's not something I'd care to worship, because even I'm better than that, and I'm just a fallible human being. Why worship a god who's not even as good as I am?