Confederate Monuments: Taken Down or Leave it Up?

[Snakebite]

Thanksgiving was treason? How so?

Not treason but something worse... resulted in the deaths of many Indians. Do we want to glorify that?

 

[Tigerace117]

Not treason but something worse... resulted in the deaths of many Indians. Do we want to glorify that?

Nobody died on Thanksgiving buddy. It was one of the few times that white people and the Native Americans who had wiped out the other Native Americans weren't killing each other.

Apparently, the one thing Lost Causers are worse at than history is remembering things.

 

[Snakebite]

Utterly irrelevant to the matter at hand. But you do what you think is best.

Just trying to see where we're drawing the lines. So it's OK to celebrate an event that led to the deaths of the Indians, to have our children dress up as the perpetrators and so forth....but it's not OK for a municipality to preserve a Civil War monument.

The Civil War was a big part of Louisiana history, just as Thanksgiving was a big part of American history

 

[Nilly]

To those who don't mind keeping them. How would you feel if it was your grandfather/mother that the guy enshrined in bronze owned/beat/raped?

 

[Snakebite]

Nobody died on Thanksgiving buddy. It was one of the few times that white people and the Native Americans who had wiped out the other Native Americans weren't killing each other.

Apparently, the one thing Lost Causers are worse at than history is remembering things.

That's interesting...so where did all the Indians in the Northeast go?

 

[Tanngrisnir]

Just trying to see where we're drawing the lines. So it's OK to celebrate an event that led to the deaths of the Indians, to have our children dress up as the perpetrators and so forth....but it's not OK for a municipality to preserve a Civil War monument.

The Civil War was a big part of Louisiana history, just as Thanksgiving was a big part of American history

Thanksgiving didn't particularly lead to any deaths.

 

[Tigerace117]

That's interesting...so where did all the Indians in the Northeast go?

I'll give you a hint buddy---they weren't wiped out on Thanskgiving.

You don't seem to understand what Thanksgiving was.

 

[JasperL]

When was the monument built? There are plenty of "monuments" to Nazi Germany and Hitler that still exist due to their HISTORICAL VALUE.

I'm not aware that a single statue of Hitler is displayed anywhere in Germany except perhaps in a museum somewhere - same with monuments to Nazi Germany. I searched earlier and all I could find was a story of a bell that honored Goring in a tiny little town in the middle of nowhere, that was in fact quickly removed to storage.

If it was recently built, then I agree with you. If not, then no.

Having history enriches all of us. An old confederate monument is not going to reignite the Civil War.

And that's not the argument, not close to the argument, aka a straw man. And I don't really believe you're making the argument that a statue glorifying Hitler would "enrich" a community of Jews that saw members of their family slaughtered by the Nazis, which is why you will not find ANY statues of Hitler in any Jewish community. But you expect that a statue of Jefferson Davis, describing him in glowing terms, 'enriches' a black community, people who Davis thought were inherently inferior and were rightly slaves.

 

[Snakebite]

I'll give you a hint buddy---they weren't wiped out on Thanskgiving.

You don't seem to understand what Thanksgiving was.

It doesn't matter whether they were wiped out on Thanksgiving or a few weeks later. Those same pilgrims slaughtered countless Indians. We're celebrating a bunch of genocidal murderers.

And what about France? Napoleon was a butcher. Should France tear down the Arch de Triumphe and the tomb of Napoleon?

 

[JasperL]

Just trying to see where we're drawing the lines. So it's OK to celebrate an event that led to the deaths of the Indians, to have our children dress up as the perpetrators and so forth....but it's not OK for a municipality to preserve a Civil War monument.

The Civil War was a big part of Louisiana history, just as Thanksgiving was a big part of American history

Man, you're the king of straw men on this thread. Of course it's "OK" for a municipality to "preserve a Civil War monument." It's also OK for a community to move them, take them down, place them in storage, depending on the preferences of the community, what the monument represents, the context in which it is displayed, and more.

 

[Snakebite]

I'm not aware that a single statue of Hitler is displayed anywhere in Germany except perhaps in a museum somewhere - same with monuments to Nazi Germany. I searched earlier and all I could find was a story of a bell that honored Goring in a tiny little town in the middle of nowhere, that was in fact quickly removed to storage.



And that's not the argument, not close to the argument, aka a straw man. And I don't really believe you're making the argument that a statue glorifying Hitler would "enrich" a community of Jews that saw members of their family slaughtered by the Nazis, which is why you will not find ANY statues of Hitler in any Jewish community. But you expect that a statue of Jefferson Davis, describing him in glowing terms, 'enriches' a black community, people who Davis thought were inherently inferior and were rightly slaves.

There never were many statues glorifying Hitler, but there were plenty of propaganda posters that survived the bombings. You can go see them at several museums around Europe. You can also see Nazi weapons, uniforms, etc. Hitler's writings were all carefully preserved. Archival video of Hitler and the Nazis were all preserved.

Napoleon was another butcher. The great arch de triumphe in Paris was built by Napoleon as a tribute to himself. Should they tear that down?

 

[Paperview]

It doesn't matter whether they were wiped out on Thanksgiving or a few weeks later. Those same pilgrims slaughtered countless Indians. We're celebrating a bunch of genocidal murderers.

And what about France? Napoleon was a butcher. Should France tear down the Arch de Triumphe and the tomb of Napoleon?

Looks like a snakebite gave you terminal red herring disease.

 

[JasperL]

It doesn't matter whether they were wiped out on Thanksgiving or a few weeks later. Those same pilgrims slaughtered countless Indians. We're celebrating a bunch of genocidal murderers.

And what about France? Napoleon was a butcher. Should France tear down the Arch de Triumphe and the tomb of Napoleon?

It's bizarre you insist on relying on red herrings and straw men in this thread. The monuments in question are identified - there are four of them located in New Orleans.

 

[Snakebite]

Man, you're the king of straw men on this thread. Of course it's "OK" for a municipality to "preserve a Civil War monument." It's also OK for a community to move them, take them down, place them in storage, depending on the preferences of the community, what the monument represents, the context in which it is displayed, and more.

I hate racists and racism. But I also love knowledge and history.

Book burning has a long and storied history.... so you are in good company. It's natural for people to destroy the monuments and texts of the people who they don't like. It's happened so often in history that I wouldn't know where to begin listing examples.

I'm not a fan of book burning, no matter how good burning the "bad" books makes some people feel. I think society loses out on part of its history when we do this.

 

[Snakebite]

Looks like a snakebite gave you terminal red herring disease.

Pointing out an example of a monument built by one butcher and relating it to a monument dedicated to another is a red herring?

 

[JasperL]

There never were many statues glorifying Hitler, but there were plenty of propaganda posters that survived the bombings. You can go see them at several museums around Europe. You can also see Nazi weapons, uniforms, etc. Hitler's writings were all carefully preserved. Archival video of Hitler and the Nazis were all preserved.

Napoleon was another butcher. The great arch de triumphe in Paris was built by Napoleon as a tribute to himself. Should they tear that down?

It should worry you that about all you're doing today on this thread is relying on a series of logical fallacies, and when you're not doing that you're ignoring responses to your various off topic diversions. Here you're moving the goal posts from "monuments" to posters, video and writings, and comparing actual monuments glorifying Civl War leaders in public places of honor in New Orleans to museums that will present those historical Nazi artifacts in the broader context of the evils of the Nazi regime.

 

[Snakebite]

It should worry you that about all you're doing today on this thread is relying on a series of logical fallacies, and when you're not doing that you're ignoring responses to your various off topic diversions. Here you're moving the goal posts from "monuments" to posters, video and writings, and comparing actual monuments glorifying Civl War leaders in public places of honor in New Orleans to museums that will present those historical Nazi artifacts in the broader context of the evils of the Nazi regime.

You don't see the similarity between statues, videos, writings, historical knick-knacks, and and other monuments?

They are all linked because they are historical symbols.

 

[JasperL]

I hate racists and racism. But I also love knowledge and history.

Book burning has a long and storied history.... so you are in good company. It's natural for people to destroy the monuments and texts of the people who they don't like. It's happened so often in history that I wouldn't know where to begin listing examples.

I'm not a fan of book burning, no matter how good burning the "bad" books makes some people feel. I think society loses out on part of its history when we do this.

Holy Red Herring Batman!!! :roll:

 

[Snakebite]

Holy Red Herring Batman!!! :roll:

Tearing down Civil War monuments is exactly like book burning.

Books and monuments share the attribute of being links to our past.

Book burning and the destruction of monuments are done out of emotion - it "feels" good to erase the offending history. But neither action is healthy for an open and enlightened society.

 

[JasperL]

You don't see the similarity between statues, videos, writings, historical knick-knacks, and and other monuments?

They are all linked because they are historical symbols.

What I'm pointing out is a monument glorifying Hitler in the public square in Darmstadt, Germany (there is no such thing...) is quite different in every possible way that matters than Nazi video and uniforms displayed as part of the Holocaust Museum in D.C. You're insisting that two items sharing the designation "historical" means we owe the same duty to preserve item X versus item Y, and if we preserve item X in a museum, we must, therefore, not ever move or replace a statue in a public park, Q.E.D. It's not a convincing argument.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

No.The slave owners in the South lost the Civil War and their attempts at segregation were defeated by the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

The histories of wars are written by the winners and the South is a big-time loser which won't rise again.

Deal with it.

If people in the South want to commemorate Confederate 'heroes' they can put flowers on their graves.

:lol:

Have a nice day.

I have no problem with the democrats of the south losing the war. All my family is from the North and were republicans. The few that were here at the time supported the union and the abolition of slavery. I just don't see the need to get rid of History. The destruction of monuments from our past will not change anything today. It is usually the work of narrow minded fools that would deny future generations the ability to see these monument in the future.

 

[Paperview]

Tearing down Civil War monuments is exactly like book burning.

...

Only in the same way bowling balls are like aardvarks.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

One is a slaveocracy; the other is accumulated wisdom of the ages.

So no slaves were used in the building of the library. No books were confiscated from people without their permission and put in the library. There was a lot wrong doing back then as through all of our history. To go around destroying and getting rid of any and all traces of history that have any relevance to the exploitation of people is stupid. I have made my point that those monuments are a part of our history and the destruction of those monuments is clearly stupid. The exploitation of people is still alive and well in this county and destroying our history will solve nothing.

 

[Snakebite]

What I'm pointing out is a monument glorifying Hitler in the public square in Darmstadt, Germany (there is no such thing...) is quite different in every possible way that matters than Nazi video and uniforms displayed as part of the Holocaust Museum in D.C. You're insisting that two items sharing the designation "historical" means we owe the same duty to preserve item X versus item Y, and if we preserve item X in a museum, we must, therefore, not ever move or replace a statue in a public park, Q.E.D. It's not a convincing argument.

Alright, man. I'll agree to disagree. As long as they preserve the statues in a museum somewhere and don't just melt them down, then I think that's alright.

I understand that the Civil War is nearer and dearer to some folks than it is to me.... I'm a recent immigrant to this country. I look at statues like this purely for the historical significance and I don't have any emotional attachment to them. I can accept that I might be in the minority, feeling the way I do about America preserving its history.

I guess I don't get how a war that was fought 150 years ago can still elicit such raw feelings from so many people, but that's a larger discussion.

 

[JasperL]

Tearing down Civil War monuments is exactly like book burning.

Books and monuments share the attribute of being links to our past.

Book burning and the destruction of monuments are done out of emotion - it "feels" good to erase the offending history. But neither action is healthy for an open and enlightened society.

First of all, communities have the right to decide what monuments occupy places of honor in the public square, and those decisions will change over time. We cannot expect the decisions of white supremacists during the Jim Crow era to be binding on all subsequent generations in, e.g., New Orleans, and its majority black population.

Second, questions about specific monuments in a specific location and context is not 'exactly like' book burning, which is just a loaded term with no meaning in this discussion. Further, obviously, Monument A isn't like Monument B, and burning Book A is not like Burning Book B. It all depends on the context, which you are studiously avoiding in a series of logical fallacies.

Just for example, I volunteer for a group that supports our local library. We accept about 150,000 donated books per year, and figuratively 'burn' (i.e. dispose in a landfill) 10s of thousands of books every year because there is no market for them. I agree, taking down a monument is NOT like that, but it's also not like burning an original Gutenberg Bible. Get it - context matters!