Confederate Monuments: Taken Down or Leave it Up?

[CLAX1911]

I don't think it's a good idea. The Confederacy was a big part of Southern Culture. Any ties to slavery are just people being overly sensitive.

Pretty much every people I know of were enslaved at one time.

This seems to be part of a cultural Cold War we're all having right now. And to provoke people will only make it a little warmer

 

[Tigerace117]

I don't think it's a good idea. The Confederacy was a big part of Southern Culture. Any ties to slavery are just people being overly sensitive.

Pretty much every people I know of were enslaved at one time.

This seems to be part of a cultural Cold War we're all having right now. And to provoke people will only make it a little warmer

Considering that the central tenant of the Confederacy was the preservation of slavery..... The fact that southern culture embraces it so tightly is not a good thing.

 

[Slingshot Bob]

Considering that the central tenant of the Confederacy was the preservation of slavery..... The fact that southern culture embraces it so tightly is not a good thing.

We don't embrace it, we resent the f*** out of people like you, telling us to forget history.

 

[Tigerace117]

We don't embrace it, we resent the f*** out of people like you, telling us to forget history.

No, you resent the **** out of people like me telling you that your "lost cause" was a horrific and evil one, and that you murdered thousands of loyal American soldiers and sailors out of sheer greed.

Mostly because the truth hurts.

 

[CLAX1911]

Considering that the central tenant of the Confederacy was the preservation of slavery..... The fact that southern culture embraces it so tightly is not a good thing.

Opinion noted. That doesn't make it any less true.

 

[Tigerace117]

Opinion noted. That doesn't make it any less true.

You claimed that people are being "overly sensitive" yet you yourself admit that the south embraces a regime which was founded around the idea of preserving slavery.

 

[Cephus]

Only those that strongly support slavery.

:lol:


"The only valid censorship of ideas is the right of people not to listen." ~ Tommy Smothers

No, those who can't deal with history. Taking down the monuments doesn't actually change anything. They just don't want to be reminded of reality.

 

[Cephus]

They already banned The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn and To Kill a Mocking Bird because they contain the word nigger.

Yet they're all in favor of black people saying nigger all day long. Hypocritical idiots on the left, what else is new?

 

[TurtleDude]

No, those who can't deal with history. Taking down the monuments doesn't actually change anything. They just don't want to be reminded of reality.

I think some of them believe by doing so, they will exorcise their own deep seated racist sentiments.

 

[Tangmo]

I think some of them believe by doing so, they will exorcise their own deep seated racist sentiments.

Thank you Dr. Fraud, er, Freud.

Moving in this instance the statue of Lieut. Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest from a public park in the middle of the city to a Civil War battlefield site designated by the federal government as a historical place of recognition is the way to go in these matters.

Forrest was a Confederate States of America lieutenant-general which is three stars. Forrest however is nowhere listed in the annals and history of the United States as a general of our armed forces -- yours and mine.

The Confederate Army LTG Nathan Bedford Forrest is not, nor has LTG Nathan Bedford Forrest ever been, a general of any kind in the armed forces of the United States. The Confederate LTG Forrest commanded rather large unit maneuver forces of an enemy army...on the soil of the United States....against the United States. Only. Forrest never served a day in the U.S. military armed forces.

As a Confederate LTG of cavalry Nathan Forrest won some, he lost some and some got rained out. General Grant forced Forrest to surrender Ft. Donalson TN and its 12K Confederate troops but Forrest and 700 hard riders ran the Union lines to escape. Forrest bluffed a Union colonel to surrender his regiment after faking superior numbers. After the war the Joint Committee on the Conduct of the War determined LTG Forrest had led an "unjust slaughter" of 200 black Union POWs after the surrender of Ft. Pillow in TN.

Nathan Forrest and every Confederate consciously became the enemy of the United States in a war they created and began. A war the Union states finished. The only saving grace of the Confederate States of America is that the population were Americans. But that is so only because they lost. The victorious Union states have from the moment the war ended been generous to the Confederates. To a fault.

 

[nota bene]

I think some of them believe by doing so, they will exorcise their own deep seated racist sentiments.

Well, at the least they can feel extra-special "virtuous."

 

[TurtleDude]

Thank you Dr. Fraud, er, Freud.

Moving in this instance the statue of Lieut. Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest from a public park in the middle of the city to a Civil War battlefield site designated by the federal government as a historical place of recognition is the way to go in these matters.

Forrest was a Confederate States of America lieutenant-general which is three stars. Forrest however is nowhere listed in the annals and history of the United States as a general of our armed forces -- yours and mine.

The Confederate Army LTG Nathan Bedford Forrest is not, nor has LTG Nathan Bedford Forrest ever been, a general of any kind in the armed forces of the United States. The Confederate LTG Forrest commanded rather large unit maneuver forces of an enemy army...on the soil of the United States....against the United States. Only. Forrest never served a day in the U.S. military armed forces.

As a Confederate LTG of cavalry Nathan Forrest won some, he lost some and some got rained out. General Grant forced Forrest to surrender Ft. Donalson TN and its 12K Confederate troops but Forrest and 700 hard riders ran the Union lines to escape. Forrest bluffed a Union colonel to surrender his regiment after faking superior numbers. After the war the Joint Committee on the Conduct of the War determined LTG Forrest had led an "unjust slaughter" of 200 black Union POWs after the surrender of Ft. Pillow in TN.

Nathan Forrest and every Confederate consciously became the enemy of the United States in a war they created and began. A war the Union states finished. The only saving grace of the Confederate States of America is that the population were Americans. But that is so only because they lost. The victorious Union states have from the moment the war ended been generous to the Confederates. To a fault.

do you far lefties think you are bashing modern day conservatives by this faux indignation over the confederates-who were democrats? what do you think you accomplish by this silly raging over figures who have been dead for more than a century? that you are proving you hate slavery or racism? me thinks you all protest too much

 

[TurtleDude]

Well, at the least they can feel extra-special "virtuous."

maybe they can wear a ribbon-right next to the ones proclaiming support for breast cancer survivors, LGBTs, etc-that show they hate the CSA

 

[nota bene]

maybe they can wear a ribbon-right next to the ones proclaiming support for breast cancer survivors, LGBTs, etc-that show they hate the CSA

That would be very "virtuous."

 

[TurtleDude]

That would be very "virtuous."

one of the left's main claims is that "they care more". they use that claim as a battering ram against anyone who doesn't buy into their faux concern

 

[slick]

Hey I'd recommend you do listen to Rev. Sharpton's radio show given your misrepresentations of each the Reverened and myself the unreverened. Perhaps it's time (or past time) to accept the risk of learning something that contradicts your post.

Rev. Sharpton was invited to Memphis 2005 and one of the questions he was asked was if there were white Southerners worthy of respect during the Civil War...

"Absolutely. You have any number of former senators, governors, writers - Harriet Beecher Stowe - many of whom were worthy. Some might have even been anti-black. But to lead an army against the country and be honored in that country! I'm not just talking about racists. I'm talking about people that led a standing military against the United States; they should never be honored in that country. That man [Forrest] wasn't a politician. He was a rebel leader of a military army. Why would the United States allow him to be honored here?

"Andrew Johnson, who was a senator from Tennessee and became vice president in Lincoln's second term, used the "n" word in his acceptance speech. But he was a vice president. I would disagree with him. I would say he probably had racist attitudes, but I would not say he shouldn't be honored. I'm saying how do you honor traitors to the country and use public funds to do it?"

Monumental Battle | Cover Feature | Memphis News and Events | Memphis Flyer


Since then....

The name of General Nathan Bedford Forrest Park wuz changed to Health Sciences Park (it's at U of TN).

The Jefferson Davis Park wuz changed to Memphis Park.

Confederate Park wuz changed to Mississippi River Park.


A move is afoot to relocate the statue of Forrest in Memphis Park to the Brice’s Crossroad National Battlefield site near Baldwyn, Miss. So there does of course continue to be respectable people in Tennessee. They want the Forrest statue sent off to another state and who can blame 'em. Disassociation might not be such a bad idea.

Rightwingers and on these CW issues all Rebs are on the defensive. They'll need to get used to it. If they aren't used to it already. Which they should be by now. Their cause was never going to be a winner. The Rebs have been getting their asses kicked by history since 1861 yet they keep coming back for more.

Old Reverend Al wasn't as persuasive as he expected to be, or as you inferred.

Memphis NAACP announced its "resentment" towards Reverend Al Sharpton’s appearance in Memphis to
lend his voice for removal of these monuments. And in a blast in the Memphis newspaper, black Mayor
Herenton indignantly stated, "the fact that Rev. Al Sharpton has been invited to Memphis serves no useful purpose
as far as I'm concerned. All Sharpton can do is come and run his mouth... As mayor, I don't give a damn about Al Sharpton.

 

[nota bene]

one of the left's main claims is that "they care more". they use that claim as a battering ram against anyone who doesn't buy into their faux concern

Too bad that smug self-congratulation really isn't a virtue.

 

[Kal'Stang]

One very sad map:

Yes, It was a very sad and disgusting part of our history. No one around here tries to deny that. Those monuments which is the focus of this thread means different things to different people. Regardless of the original meanings of those monuments. Regardless of the reasons that the South fought the Civil War. 99% of the people that do not want those monuments destroyed, that advocate for them remaining has nothing to do with celebrating slavery. But for reasons that have nothing to do with slavery. For some it has to do with wanting to preserve history so that we may learn from it. Those same people normally don't want it hidden behind some curtain either. For others its about doing what they believe to be right regardless of what the law says. Something which was portrayed in the show Dukes of Hazard. And yes, for others, mainly those that want them taken down, its about slavery.

Personally I'm one of those people that want them preserved for historical knowledge and also believe that hiding them away will just make people forget the truth or make that history so distant that it is dismissed. And when you ignore history or don't learn from it, you're doomed to repeat it. Hell, we're going through such a period right now. Where the current generation does not know or understand history. Not just US history but world history also. And they're committing the same mistakes that were made in history.

The US has many things which it should be ashamed about. Slavery, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Jim Crow, Internment Camps for Americans, and many many other things. I for one do not wish them to be forgotten or regulated to distant memories. I want our generation, and future generations to see these monuments so that they can be reminded of our past, learn from our past, and never ever commit the same shameful acts or acts even slightly like those that we once perpetrated.

 

[slick]

Thank you Dr. Fraud, er, Freud.

Moving in this instance the statue of Lieut. Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest from a public park in the middle of the city to a Civil War battlefield site designated by the federal government as a historical place of recognition is the way to go in these matters.

Forrest was a Confederate States of America lieutenant-general which is three stars. Forrest however is nowhere listed in the annals and history of the United States as a general of our armed forces -- yours and mine.

The Confederate Army LTG Nathan Bedford Forrest is not, nor has LTG Nathan Bedford Forrest ever been, a general of any kind in the armed forces of the United States. The Confederate LTG Forrest commanded rather large unit maneuver forces of an enemy army...on the soil of the United States....against the United States. Only. Forrest never served a day in the U.S. military armed forces.

As a Confederate LTG of cavalry Nathan Forrest won some, he lost some and some got rained out. General Grant forced Forrest to surrender Ft. Donalson TN and its 12K Confederate troops but Forrest and 700 hard riders ran the Union lines to escape. Forrest bluffed a Union colonel to surrender his regiment after faking superior numbers. After the war the Joint Committee on the Conduct of the War determined LTG Forrest had led an "unjust slaughter" of 200 black Union POWs after the surrender of Ft. Pillow in TN.

Nathan Forrest and every Confederate consciously became the enemy of the United States in a war they created and began. A war the Union states finished. The only saving grace of the Confederate States of America is that the population were Americans. But that is so only because they lost. The victorious Union states have from the moment the war ended been generous to the Confederates. To a fault.

If you and other haters get their way soon we will have civil war battlefields and monuments where only the flag of the winner can be flown.

The Institute for Military Studies concluded that the Battle of Brice's Crossroads (won by Forrest), was
perhaps the most spectacular display of tactical genius during wartime. Few military figures if any have
earned the respect and praise of the complete spectrum of friend & foe alike, along with top authors of
the theatre in which they performed.

1) His greatest adversary William T. Sherman called him “the most remarkable man our civil war produced on either side’

adding ‘he had a strategy which was original & incomprehensible. There was no theory
or art of war by which I could calculate with any degree of certainty
what Forrest was up to.’

Sherman said that he would get that devil Forrest if it cost him 10,000 lives and broke the US tr.easury.
Sherman sent successively larger armies after Bedford, and he decisively defeated each one.'
It is interesting that after the Civil War, both men sought to team up together when war looked likely to occur
with Spain over Cuba in 1873. Forrest offered his services to Sherman, who wrote the War Department
a glowing recommendation of Forrest’s capabilities.

2) After his surrender, when asked by a Union Officer who he thought his greatest general was, General Robert E.
Lee replied, "Sir, a gentleman I have never had the pleasure to meet, General Nathan Bedford Forrest."

3) Shelby Foote who wrote the monumental 3-volume "Civil War: A Narrative" One of the 5 books the Civil War Trust recommends,
held that there were two authentic geniuses to emerge from the Civil War --- President Abraham Lincoln & Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest.

 

[shrubnose]

If you and other haters get their way soon we will have civil war battlefields and monuments where only the flag of the winner can be flown.

The Institute for Military Studies concluded that the Battle of Brice's Crossroads (won by Forrest), was
perhaps the most spectacular display of tactical genius during wartime. Few military figures if any have
earned the respect and praise of the complete spectrum of friend & foe alike, along with top authors of
the theatre in which they performed.

1) His greatest adversary William T. Sherman called him “the most remarkable man our civil war produced on either side’

adding ‘he had a strategy which was original & incomprehensible. There was no theory
or art of war by which I could calculate with any degree of certainty
what Forrest was up to.’

Sherman said that he would get that devil Forrest if it cost him 10,000 lives and broke the US tr.easury.
Sherman sent successively larger armies after Bedford, and he decisively defeated each one.'
It is interesting that after the Civil War, both men sought to team up together when war looked likely to occur
with Spain over Cuba in 1873. Forrest offered his services to Sherman, who wrote the War Department
a glowing recommendation of Forrest’s capabilities.

2) After his surrender, when asked by a Union Officer who he thought his greatest general was, General Robert E.
Lee replied, "Sir, a gentleman I have never had the pleasure to meet, General Nathan Bedford Forrest."

3) Shelby Foote who wrote the monumental 3-volume "Civil War: A Narrative" One of the 5 books the Civil War Trust recommends,
held that there were two authentic geniuses to emerge from the Civil War --- President Abraham Lincoln & Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest.

In about 50 years after massive demographic change reduces the non-Hispanic White portion of the USA's population to a minority I doubt that you'll find any Confederate monuments on display on any government property in the USA.

If you do get back with us and tell us about it.

:lol:


"Better days are coming." ~ But not for today's out of touch,running out of time,GOP.

 

[Tangmo]

do you far lefties think you are bashing modern day conservatives by this faux indignation over the confederates-who were democrats? what do you think you accomplish by this silly raging over figures who have been dead for more than a century? that you are proving you hate slavery or racism? me thinks you all protest too much

Secession.

Slavery (unfortunately) could have continued but for session.

Lincoln freed the slaves by the Emancipation Proclamation because there was a war on. A war to be won. A war the Confederacy started.

The southern states at the time Lincoln was elected in 1860 continued to have power, influence and clout in the Congress. Scotus rarely went against the Plantation owners.

Southern states -- bravo hip-hip -- wanted a war of secession. They got it.

To reiterate, the victorious states of the Union were generous to the states of the Confederacy to a fault. The one thing the Union did do after the war was to withhold the citizenship of Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee (among a few others). Potus Ford restored it with support from Congress in 1975.

Potus Andrew Johnson on Christmas Day 1868 granted an unconditional amnesty to all Confederates (the applications of Lee and Davis turned out to be lost...until Republicans found 'em somehow in 1975).

Generous to a fault.

 

[Van Basten]

If they're publicly funded, tear them down.

 

[TurtleDude]

Secession.

Slavery (unfortunately) could have continued but for session.

Lincoln freed the slaves by the Emancipation Proclamation because there was a war on. A war to be won. A war the Confederacy started.

The southern states at the time Lincoln was elected in 1860 continued to have power, influence and clout in the Congress. Scotus rarely went against the Plantation owners.

Southern states -- bravo hip-hip -- wanted a war of secession. They got it.

To reiterate, the victorious states of the Union were generous to the states of the Confederacy to a fault. The one thing the Union did do after the war was to withhold the citizenship of Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee (among a few others). Potus Ford restored it with support from Congress in 1975.

Potus Andrew Johnson on Christmas Day 1868 granted an unconditional amnesty to all Confederates (the applications of Lee and Davis turned out to be lost...until Republicans found 'em somehow in 1975).

Generous to a fault.

slavery was ending around the industrialized world anyway. again, the faux indignation is pretty silly

 

[Tangmo]

If you and other haters get their way soon we will have civil war battlefields and monuments where only the flag of the winner can be flown.

The Institute for Military Studies concluded that the Battle of Brice's Crossroads (won by Forrest), was
perhaps the most spectacular display of tactical genius during wartime. Few military figures if any have
earned the respect and praise of the complete spectrum of friend & foe alike, along with top authors of
the theatre in which they performed.

1) His greatest adversary William T. Sherman called him “the most remarkable man our civil war produced on either side’

adding ‘he had a strategy which was original & incomprehensible. There was no theory
or art of war by which I could calculate with any degree of certainty
what Forrest was up to.’

Sherman said that he would get that devil Forrest if it cost him 10,000 lives and broke the US tr.easury.
Sherman sent successively larger armies after Bedford, and he decisively defeated each one.'
It is interesting that after the Civil War, both men sought to team up together when war looked likely to occur
with Spain over Cuba in 1873. Forrest offered his services to Sherman, who wrote the War Department
a glowing recommendation of Forrest’s capabilities.

2) After his surrender, when asked by a Union Officer who he thought his greatest general was, General Robert E.
Lee replied, "Sir, a gentleman I have never had the pleasure to meet, General Nathan Bedford Forrest."

3) Shelby Foote who wrote the monumental 3-volume "Civil War: A Narrative" One of the 5 books the Civil War Trust recommends,
held that there were two authentic geniuses to emerge from the Civil War --- President Abraham Lincoln & Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest.

The Confederate three-star general Nathan Bedford Forrest fought on the wrong side. Lots of geniuses have done the very same thing. History is our guide.

Hannibal was a military genius and he was on the wrong side against ancient Rome...we thank General Publius Scipio for finally doing him in. The brilliant tank strategist General Heinz Guderian invented blitzkrieg for the Nazis and the master Erwin Rommel applied it in North Africa where Scipio had finished off Hannibal and the U.S. and the Brits finished off Rommel. Attila the Hun was to the right of all of 'em.

Nathan Forrest started off as a Confederate private until he wised up quickly and bought himself a regiment using his slave trade fortune. Forrest went overnight from private to lieutenant-colonel. My calculator can't figure how many grades in rank that jumps...but it would be something like ten grades in rank. Overnight.

Same as General Lee, Forrest was a hornet at hit and run guerrilla tactics and maneuver warfare. Same as Gen. Lee however, Nathan Forrest avoided or withdrew from major confrontation warfare, which is why General Sherman never got the shot at Forrest that Sherman wanted. Gen. Grant cornered and defeated Forrest at Ft. Donalson TN where Forrest was on defense which was the weak point of virtually every Confederate commander throughout the war.

General Philip Sheridan btw and his own cavalry were perhaps the most unheralded force of the Civil War. Potus Grant appointed General Sherman commanding general of the U.S. Army and appointed Sherman's successor General Sheridan as Army commanding general. Nathan Bedford Forrest meanwhile went on to other things we know about today. Much more than we know about Sherman or Sheridan -- unfortunately and unhappily. Those guys kept their nose clean whereas Nathan Bedford Forrest lived by his own personal laws. The law of the noose.

 

[Moderate Right]

No, you resent the **** out of people like me telling you that your "lost cause" was a horrific and evil one, and that you murdered thousands of loyal American soldiers and sailors out of sheer greed.

Mostly because the truth hurts.

Don't you think African Americans should know their own history? Do you think they would favor eliminating any and all references to slavery and pretend that it never existed? What about the Holocaust? Should we also wipe out any references to that and pretend that it never existed? Everyone on both sides should have reminders of our history and hopefully learn from the horrors and wrongdoings associated with it. To ignore that any of it happened is ridiculous.