• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

CNN: Ocasio-Cortez, Khanna will vote against House Democratic rules over 'PAYGO' spending restraints

The Mark

Sporadic insanity normal.
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
31,065
Reaction score
9,344
Location
Pennsylvania
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/02/politics/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-democratic-rules/index.html

(CNN)Leading progressives are threatening to reject a rules package backed by Democratic leadership over a requirement they believe could thwart their most ambitious policy plans.

New York Rep.-elect Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and California Rep. Ro Khanna said Wednesday they will vote against any guidelines that include a provision known as "PAYGO," or "pay as you go," which requires that new spending be offset by matching cuts or increases in revenue.
Progressives who support programs like "Medicare-for-all" and other policies likely to increase government expenditures worry that the rule would create a self-imposed obstacle with limited political upside -- and come across as a sign that Democrats are committed to the austerity economics championed, at least rhetorically, by conservative groups.

I completely agree with Ocasio-Cortez and Khanna on this.
PayGo is utterly unacceptable.

I'm a bit upset with the democrats for even considering doing such a thing, although I can't say it's surprising.

It is a thinly veiled attempt to put in place a rule they can point to later and use it as a reason not to support necessary action.

 

Cardinal

Respected On All Sides
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
96,925
Reaction score
81,181
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I'm no expert on "paygo," but as I understand it the House can't unilaterally abandon paygo. They'd need a filibuster proof majority in the Senate to pull that off (assuming they don't go nuclear).
 
Last edited:

chuckiechan

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Messages
16,568
Reaction score
7,253
Location
California Caliphate
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I completely agree with Ocasio-Cortez and Khanna on this.
PayGo is utterly unacceptable.

I'm a bit upset with the democrats for even considering doing such a thing, although I can't say it's surprising.

It is a thinly veiled attempt to put in place a rule they can point to later and use it as a reason not to support necessary action.

[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

What’s funny is Miss Muffet Cortez actually would even pay lip service to paying for anything “as you go”!
 

Napoleon

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 15, 2012
Messages
21,759
Reaction score
7,710
Location
Columbus, OH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
I completely agree with Ocasio-Cortez and Khanna on this.
PayGo is utterly unacceptable.

I'm a bit upset with the democrats for even considering doing such a thing, although I can't say it's surprising.

It is a thinly veiled attempt to put in place a rule they can point to later and use it as a reason not to support necessary action.

[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

If it’s necessary then you need find a way to pay for it. There’s no sense at all in creating the biggest social dependency in this nation’s history in a way that dooms it to collapse under the weight of its own costs. Despite what Cortez might think - Monopoly money is not a form of legal tender.
 
Last edited:

Common Sense 1

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 8, 2016
Messages
17,416
Reaction score
12,127
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Private
Once they get in session want to be speaker Pelosi will put them in their
quiet place. If they keep squawking they will be cleaning toilets in the Capitol basement.
 

Redress

Liberal Fascist For Life!
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
111,059
Reaction score
56,963
Location
Bradenton Fla
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
I completely agree with Ocasio-Cortez and Khanna on this.
PayGo is utterly unacceptable.

I'm a bit upset with the democrats for even considering doing such a thing, although I can't say it's surprising.

It is a thinly veiled attempt to put in place a rule they can point to later and use it as a reason not to support necessary action.

[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

Did the source article really call Ocasio-Cortez and Khanna "leading progressives"? Between the 2 of them, they have a total of 2 years on the job...

And PAYGO is important, especially with the damage done by Trump and republicans policy of cut revenue while drastically increasing spending.
 

Athanasius68

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 27, 2016
Messages
23,531
Reaction score
4,386
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I'm no expert on "paygo," but as I understand it the House can't unilaterally abandon paygo. They'd need a filibuster proof majority in the Senate to pull that off (assuming they don't go nuclear).

The House can do that as all spending bills must originate in the House. The Senate doesn't have to agree, and then both chambers would need to figure it out from there.
 

Surrealistik

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
8,880
Reaction score
4,412
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I completely agree with Ocasio-Cortez and Khanna on this.
PayGo is utterly unacceptable.

I'm a bit upset with the democrats for even considering doing such a thing, although I can't say it's surprising.

It is a thinly veiled attempt to put in place a rule they can point to later and use it as a reason not to support necessary action.

[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

I generally agree.

At the same time, hey, maybe this will end up being a motivator for repealing the needless and absurdly costly Bush and Trump tax giveaways for the rich, and getting rates back to where they should be.
 

The Mark

Sporadic insanity normal.
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
31,065
Reaction score
9,344
Location
Pennsylvania
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
If it’s necessary then you need find a way to pay for it. There’s no sense at all in creating the biggest social dependency in this nation’s history in a way that dooms it to collapse under the weight of its own costs. Despite what Cortez might think - Monopoly money is not a form of legal tender.

Republicans don't care about paying for their bills any more than democrats do.
This is entirely about creating an excuse not to pass bills to address issues.
 

The Mark

Sporadic insanity normal.
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
31,065
Reaction score
9,344
Location
Pennsylvania
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
What’s funny is Miss Muffet Cortez actually would even pay lip service to paying for anything “as you go”!
I don't know what that crack is about, but she's opposed to it because it's the establishment democrats trying to create an excuse not to pass bills on policies she supports.
Like that Green New Deal thing.
 

Napoleon

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 15, 2012
Messages
21,759
Reaction score
7,710
Location
Columbus, OH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Republicans don't care about paying for their bills any more than democrats do.
This is entirely about creating an excuse not to pass bills to address issues.

No, this is about typical progressive refusal to disclose the financial details of the guargantuan multi-trillion dollar social programs they demand the government adopt. The need for additional revenue to pay for that is an inevitable conversation so why not have it up front? Your criticisms are about chump change which the Treasury easily obtains loans to cover. But there’s no financial institution anywhere with the capital and assets to make multi-trillion loans so you don’t have a choice. If you want the program then you must simultaneously establish the revenue stream to pay for it.
 
Last edited:

The Mark

Sporadic insanity normal.
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
31,065
Reaction score
9,344
Location
Pennsylvania
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
No, this is about typical progressive refusal to disclose the financial details of the guargantuan multi-trillion dollar social programs they demand the government adopt. The need for additional revenue to pay for that is an inevitable conversation so why not have it up front? Your criticisms are about chump change which the Treasury easily obtains loans to cover. But there’s no financial institution anywhere with the capital and assets to make multi-trillion loans so you don’t have a choice. If you want the program then you must simultaneously establish the revenue stream to pay for it.
That may be the excuse to implement it, but it's not the reason it's being proposed.

And I'm not even sure I agree with that argument if it was in earnest.
 

poweRob

USMC 1988-1996
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 18, 2011
Messages
74,458
Reaction score
43,708
Location
New Mexico
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
What’s funny is Miss Muffet Cortez actually would even pay lip service to paying for anything “as you go”!

Any investment is not paying as you go.
 

Bullseye

All Lives Matter or No Lives Matter
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 18, 2018
Messages
42,815
Reaction score
14,965
Location
San Diego
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Did the source article really call Ocasio-Cortez and Khanna "leading progressives"? Between the 2 of them, they have a total of 2 years on the job...

And PAYGO is important, especially with the damage done by Trump and republicans policy of cut revenue while drastically increasing spending.
Revenue HASN'T been cut, in fact it was up about 3% in first two months of this fiscal year under Trumps "cuts" vs last with cuts. As usual the deficit is driven by spending.
 

Redress

Liberal Fascist For Life!
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
111,059
Reaction score
56,963
Location
Bradenton Fla
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Revenue HASN'T been cut, in fact it was up about 3% in first two months of this fiscal year under Trumps "cuts" vs last with cuts. As usual the deficit is driven by spending.

It was cut below the level it would have been without the tax cuts. Revenue goes up almost every year. They would have been up more without the tax cuts. Or to put it another way, revenue growth is significantly down.
 

jdog21

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Messages
3,602
Reaction score
760
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
My limited understanding of PAYGO is all about the national debt we have the huge deficit problem.
So you either cut to make up the costs or you increase revenues like new or larger taxes to pay for bigger spending.
 

chuckiechan

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Messages
16,568
Reaction score
7,253
Location
California Caliphate
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
My limited understanding of PAYGO is all about the national debt we have the huge deficit problem.
So you either cut to make up the costs or you increase revenues like new or larger taxes to pay for bigger spending.

They wont love you anymore if you do that. Their job is to do the minimum possible and keep thrir jobs.
 

distraff

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 8, 2011
Messages
3,074
Reaction score
840
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
I completely agree with Ocasio-Cortez and Khanna on this.
PayGo is utterly unacceptable.

I'm a bit upset with the democrats for even considering doing such a thing, although I can't say it's surprising.

It is a thinly veiled attempt to put in place a rule they can point to later and use it as a reason not to support necessary action.

[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

I think paygo is a great idea and with a trillion dollar deficit that will expand past 1.5 trillion, we need to make sure that new spending doesn't increase the deficit any more than it will be. Even if we don't increase the deficit in any new bills, the interest on our debt is projected to reach almost a trillion dollars a year in 10 years. I am pleasantly surprised that democratic leadership has some sense of how to make a balanced budget that they used to have in the 90s.
 

Bullseye

All Lives Matter or No Lives Matter
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 18, 2018
Messages
42,815
Reaction score
14,965
Location
San Diego
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
It was cut below the level it would have been without the tax cuts. Revenue goes up almost every year. They would have been up more without the tax cuts. Or to put it another way, revenue growth is significantly down.
Sorry, no, without the tax cuts there's to way corporate income would have gone up that much. All those LW cliché's ignore economic facts.
 

Mr Person

A Little Bitter
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Oct 14, 2015
Messages
59,290
Reaction score
49,669
Location
Massachusetts
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Revenue HASN'T been cut, in fact it was up about 3% in first two months of this fiscal year under Trumps "cuts" vs last with cuts. As usual the deficit is driven by spending.

Ah yes, the game of switching between absolute numbers and percentages and what is being compared as convenient. I do hope you realize that you are betting on at least X% of people not knowing what the hell they are talking about and that you know well enough what X is when you try to make that fly.
 

Checkerboard Strangler

Sagalong Catastrophe Ranch
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
60,432
Reaction score
42,237
Location
Los Angeles
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I completely agree with Ocasio-Cortez and Khanna on this.
PayGo is utterly unacceptable.

I'm a bit upset with the democrats for even considering doing such a thing, although I can't say it's surprising.

It is a thinly veiled attempt to put in place a rule they can point to later and use it as a reason not to support necessary action.

[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

The Trump administration has added almost 3 TRILLION dollars to the debt in just 2 years. This is, I think, some kind of record. On top of that we now have a debt which is greater than our GDP!

Now add in that the so called "tax cut" was done at the top of our economy. When we do that we stop the benefits of a hot economy and suck up all the supposed income to pay for the "tax cut". It makes it even more interesting when one considers that the main beneficiaries of the "tax cut" were the upper 1%. The plan is a 2 trillion cut for Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security.

What this means is that medicare will be losing 100 billion a year until, basically, done. Same with medicaid and Social Security.

The point of all of this is the current crop of announcements, by Democrats, about all the things they are going to be able to get done. The only problem is that there is simply no way that can happen. We have rules that say that if gov spends money then gov has to find a way to pay for said increases in spending. The Republicans are already destroying the so called "Entitlements", even though they also continue to say things like; "We really need to do something about entitlements". The simple fact is that the current budget plans to simply destroy "entitlements".

The point here is that thanks to the Republicans and their policies, there is NO MONEY! Its already being spent, right now, to fund the tax bill and the 1%. When the Dems come into office there is not, as far as I can tell, any money available for anything but paying the interest on the national debt.

In other words the Republicans, in their infinite wisdom, figured out how to spend any and all money available to pay for their gifts to the very wealthy. The only way the Dems can stop this is to roll back some of the Republican tax bill. To do that they will need the senate to roll back stuff like Pay-Go. I am not convinced that they have the votes to do that which means the Republicans cleverly spent all the money and, as far as I can tell, did it knowing that the Dems would take the House, and not the Senate in 2018, which also means they were ahead of the Dems from the getgo. This also means that they will fight any and all legislation from the Dems, regardless of whether its good or bad for the nation, as their singular interest is in 'beating' the Dems by stopping any, and every thing, the Dems try and legislate.

And so for that reason I am in favor of AOC's idea, maybe she is in need of playing a little catch-up on some subjects, but where strategy is concerned, she may prove a lot more brilliant than previously believed.
And Lord knows, we are desperately in need of some strategy.

[FONT=&quot]This is some much needed pushback. Let's hope that it takes.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Lord knows, if there was a need for war money, there wouldn't even be a hint of a discussion of "pay-go", would there.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Well, Republicans are committing acts of war.[/FONT]
 
Last edited:

Redress

Liberal Fascist For Life!
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
111,059
Reaction score
56,963
Location
Bradenton Fla
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Sorry, no, without the tax cuts there's to way corporate income would have gone up that much. All those LW cliché's ignore economic facts.

Yeah, I am sure you are right, and actual data is wrong...

https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-tax-revenue-3305762

FY 2018: $3.34t tax revenue
FY 2017: $3.32t
FY 2016: $3.27t

Srsly, it helps to provide actual data rather than "cuz I say so". Some people on this board have actual knowledge of what they are talking about, which you seem to lack.
 

markjs

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 25, 2016
Messages
3,833
Reaction score
1,610
Location
Port Hadlock, WA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
I actually wrote and Tweeted to my freshman rep, no on pay-go!
 

danarhea

Slayer of the DP Newsbot
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 27, 2005
Messages
43,602
Reaction score
26,256
Location
Houston, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I completely agree with Ocasio-Cortez and Khanna on this.
PayGo is utterly unacceptable.

I'm a bit upset with the democrats for even considering doing such a thing, although I can't say it's surprising.

It is a thinly veiled attempt to put in place a rule they can point to later and use it as a reason not to support necessary action.

[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

And the deficit keeps increasing at an almost exponential pace.
 

Bullseye

All Lives Matter or No Lives Matter
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 18, 2018
Messages
42,815
Reaction score
14,965
Location
San Diego
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Ah yes, the game of switching between absolute numbers and percentages and what is being compared as convenient. I do hope you realize that you are betting on at least X% of people not knowing what the hell they are talking about and that you know well enough what X is when you try to make that fly.
Ok, here's one hard number corporate income tax revenue for October and November FY 2019 was six billion dollars - a mere FIVE MILLION more than during the same period last fiscal year. You guys can continue playing the Baghdad Bob of taxes as long as you want but that statue of Obama is coming down.
 
Top Bottom